Blood Simple - The Day The Music Died - Page 9

Montegomery · 06/08/09, 7:14 PM

It's not about discounting parses but understanding what they can and can not do. Parses can not defy mathematical or statistical law no matter how few our other data sources. What tetra appears to be pushing back against is the odd assumption that "personal success" as observed in a limited number of parses is somehow validated without thorough combing and processing of the data.

In any case, while I would agree that Glyph of Disease is likely to change the inflection point for Str vs ArP, I hesitate to consider it a "major" factor, bug or no bug. The glyph came up fairly often in the previous thread, but it was proven several times to be less of a DPS increase compared to the other three DPS glyphs. Unless any changes have been made, or there are proven holes in the old arguments, using Glyph of Disease is a DPS hit for the sake of convenience/personal preference.

concept84 · 06/09/09, 2:30 PM

My 'magic number' findings were largely based upon my own math and spreadsheets and then cross referenced to the others we have available. Unfortunately uploading to WMO and WWS is the closest I can get to testing my theory.

In the last thread I had explained in great lengths how I came to my conclusions, and how Armor Penetration is effected by our other stats, and in specific, its relationship to Strength. The community as a whole has acknowledged this 'magic number' in which Armor Penetration overcomes Strength exists because of scaling, but not acknowledging that this point could be reached in current gear without going through similar processes to prove it just seems odd.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't mind being wrong, but in our efforts to find this answer please bring more to the table than "parses mean nothing". We see other physical damage dealing classes going through the same debate currently as well and have acknowledged that Armor Penetration is in fact a great stat. I do believe the people saying parses are not accurate enough to confirm this finding in our debate, they are absolutely correct, but what I'd like to see and I think many others is a pursuit towards the true 'magic number' where Armor Penetration overcomes Strength, even if it isn't obtainable in current gear.

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Just to recap, even at 7000 Attack Power and a large amount of Armor Penetration, I show Strength and Armor Penetration to still be close enough in weight that parses alone cannot prove my math, even though I show Armor Penetration at a higher weight.

dr_AllCOM3 · 06/09/09, 4:45 PM

Magic ArP number = 100% - Talent - OneTrinketProc

That's what I get with my sheet. Get as close as possible.

halfpint · 06/09/09, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Magic ArP number = 100% - Talent - OneTrinketProc

That's what I get with my sheet. Get as close as possible.

Do you want to subtract another 20% for major armor reduction and 5% for minor? Or do those not count towards the 100% cap?

dr_AllCOM3 · 06/09/09, 8:45 PM

Originally Posted by halfpint

Do you want to subtract another 20% for major armor reduction and 5% for minor? Or do those not count towards the 100% cap?

They don't count towards the cap. ArP affects the armor that's leftover after the debuffs.

Daeren · 06/10/09, 5:57 AM

Since there was some doubt, and since I didn't post any data (was at a lecture with my tablet pc) on that I disagreed with OP, here goes data. Note, that this is with Sigil of the Vengeful heart.
http://gedkp.site50.net/personlig/resultsjune.rtf
http://gedkp.site50.net/personlig/blood2h.xml
That's the long list of breakdowns, to make it in short (all of it was through the standard 24 hour testing on DKsim 0.8.4):

Standard 51/2/18 build that follows DKsim:
DPS 6060

Less-ghoul, more DRW 51/2/18 (more points in necrosis and BCB)
DPS 6153

50/0/21 Less ghoul spec (max Necrosis and BCB) with unholy blight 100% uptime
DPS 6224

50/0/21 Same build as above, but without usage of unholy blight.
DPS 6292

If you want to check out more specifically what gear I use and breakdowns, it's in the files i linked.

To put it how I see it. Yes, DRW is highly situational, and can be useful when you have loads of buffs and can do tons of damage. Nice burst damage. The problem is, that while DRW might go ahead if you have greatness card procced, heroism up, trinket nr 2 up, and FC up, that's a situation that might not happen.
But, will it outweigh the 232 DPS on average? That's quite a significant increase.

Daeren · 06/10/09, 5:57 AM

*edit double post*

shed · 06/10/09, 6:13 AM

Your sim is only taking into account a Patchwerk type boss, there are a lot of Ulduar fights that require a lot of movement and burst damage where Unholy blight will not be able to tick for full durations.

Daeren · 06/10/09, 7:55 AM

Indeed, but my pure DC spam was what won ahead.
Also, I don't see how a non-PW-stlye boss helps DRW with more than a pure DC spam.

♦ Darkside · 06/10/09, 9:34 AM

If I'm reading this data correctly, you seem to be implying that dumping all your RP through Deathcoil is a better use for it than using DRW every minute and a half, correct? There's no way that's possible.

Soilantgreen64 · 06/10/09, 9:35 AM

Originally Posted by Daeren

snip

To put it how I see it. Yes, DRW is highly situational, and can be useful when you have loads of buffs and can do tons of damage. Nice burst damage. The problem is, that while DRW might go ahead if you have greatness card procced, heroism up, trinket nr 2 up, and FC up, that's a situation that might not happen.
But, will it outweigh the 232 DPS on average? That's quite a significant increase.

Originally Posted by Daeren

Indeed, but my pure DC spam was what won ahead.
Also, I don't see how a non-PW-stlye boss helps DRW with more than a pure DC spam.

When raiding you have tons of buffs, that's why Blood does so well in a raid setting. On average FC has ~ 75% uptime, and Greatness ~30%, with a trinket like Grim Toll coming in around ~20%. The fact is you are going to have overlapping procs a lot of the time. Also you didnt sim 51/0/20, which is in my opinion the current standard raid build.

The only other comment I would make here is you have to ask yourself whether or not your sim results make sense. You drop DRW from your build to pick up UB, and it looks like your DPS goes up. Then you run the sim without using UB, and your DPS goes up again.

Just looking at a WWS from one of my raids from an ignis fight, DC averaged ~3k, ~6k on crits, so 100 RP spent on DCs would yield roughly ~10k damage. 3 instances of DRW did ~100k dmg, so roughly ~30k/100 RP. So reality is in stark contrast with the sim results you provided, which makes me not really put any weight behind them.

Since your results tell us that DC spam is better than UB, why would you ever spec into UB? Anecdotally I know for certain that spending 100 RP on DRW yields a greater DPS gain then DC. So if I took anything at all from the results you provided, it would be that the simulator probably still isnt there 100% on modeling DRW yet, and that UB is probably still a terrible talent, definately not worth taking over DRW.

dr_AllCOM3 · 06/10/09, 9:50 AM

Who says the sim models DRW correctly? I bet it's just a guess, based on my spreadsheet experience.
My DRW does about 4-5% of the total damage. That's far more than the usual 1% per talent point and a great way to get rid of all that rp. On top of that it's a burst skill with a short cd and there are lots of uses for burst in Ulduar.

Decaying · 06/10/09, 9:56 AM

So in your effort to prove that taking UB over DRW you instead prove that 100% uptime on UB is a loss over not using it at all? I dont understand how you came to the conclusion that this means UB is worth taking. Also you are not comparing apples to apples. You are comparing a 51/2/18 DRW build missing maxed necrosis/bcb to a UB build that has both maxed. In my experience 2 points in frost for 3 sec/90 sec more drw uptime is a dps loss over putting the points in unholy. My drw does 30k per gcd use at 100 RP without popping other cd's along with it. It's important to note that using your rp to spam DC as your sim suggested is unrealistic as well. A proper blood rotation leaves you with a minimim of free gcd, and you shouldn't be dumping RP if you have any runes up for hs/ds, as DC is a dps loss if hs or ds is available. Again, this isn't even counting the burst potential that drw has on fights like XT, and with a proc monitor you can easily time your drw with a greatness/fc proc

Afabar · 06/10/09, 10:31 AM

Here is how the DRW is implemented in my simulator.

DRW inherit of players buff.
DRW inherit of players AP, haste and hit.
DRW do not benefit of player talent.
DRW do not benefit of player glyph.
DRW base speed is 3.5
DRW white hit damage are reduce by 50%
DRW special damage are reduce by 50%
Benefit only of its own desease

Do you see anything wrong?

Ellitus · 06/10/09, 10:42 AM

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