Blood Simple - The Day The Music Died - Page 95

Kyin77 · 07/21/10, 11:43 PM

I think you missed my point. I was comparing the 2 subspecs to each other for what they bring.

from what iv seen, Obliterate does 110% weapon damage + 706 + 25%. Deathstrike does 98.5% weapon damage + 374. both have a similar glyph for equal damage. Hard to comapre how much dps this would add. The biggest loss for frost sub is 14secs on disease.

Now, im not intersted in if Unholy does more single target dps or what not, I am just concerned with which subspec does more dps and why. And if Obliterate can be viable for blood over deathstrike.

Chani · 07/22/10, 4:09 AM

Well as I posted, the frost spec if very comparable to the unholy spec. Its a couple of dps... but if you can work with the short diseases (which means very much knowing when to ITPS or DS, which is the major task with this spec) then I would prefer the frost sub for short gcd.
As for Obliterate, maybe I get the chance to test it on live, but the OBL base dame is approximately only 25-30% higher, but you loose 45% dmg on 50-60% of all hits. Which would come out to be equal BUT you loose alot of crit on OBL...

ah if I see it right you gain 9% crit on OBL and only 6% on DS? Mh maybe we should give it a try... but then, the krit bonus was removed to render obl useless to blood.

Kyin77 · 07/22/10, 10:11 AM

Ah, i see that now. I was not aware they removed the obliterate crit bonus from the blood tree. With that gone I see now how DS would be more dps than obliterate.

Chani · 07/22/10, 6:41 PM

I tried it bit with OBL tonight... and I had the feeling the the OBL crit where as high as the DS crits, which should in the end be more damage. I started a Sim then, whith this resulst:

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	1617348500	34,2	171707	12553,9	65060	37,9	7275,7	63772	37,1	14520,5	132	,1	42875	25	5084,2
HeartStrike	1399458600	29,6	111195	12585,6	56614	50,9	7352,6	54581	49	18013,6	86	,1
Obliterate	428976568	9,1	28362	15125	14450	50,9	10154,9	13912	49	20287,4	23	,1
DeathCoil	300198374	6,3	44895	6686,7	27904	60,1	4853,1	16991	36,6	9698	1562	3,4
Diseases.FrostFever	196802990	4,2	104460	1884	104460	100	1884									87,5
Diseases.BloodPlague	196131121	4,1	104059	1884,8	104059	100	1884,8									87
DRW: Melee	117836394	2,5	30700	5111,3	11570	37,7	2954,8	11484	37,4	5906,9			7646	24,9	2068,4
PlagueStrike	109536358	2,3	21363	5127,4	12771	59,7	3660,4	8592	40,2	7307,8	17	,1
IcyTouch	92146382	1,9	21680	4250,3	13374	59,7	3072,8	8306	37,1	6146,2	723	3,2
BloodWorms	79268587	1,7	351080	225,8	351080	100
Ghoul	81665687	1,7	94771	1280,8	53280	56,2	1022,3	10479	11,1	1740,4			31012	32,7	289
DRW: Heart Strike	47031124	1	18014	2610,8	11406	63,3	1911,4	6608	36,7	3818
Army of the Dead	27982447	,6	335840	83,3	292044	87	82	43796	13	91,9
DRW: Death Coil	12693855	,3	5943	2135,9	3604	58,7	1531,3	2339	38,1	4788,7	201	3,3
DRW: Obliterate	11557985	,2	5414	2134,8	3385	62,5	1551,3	2029	37,5	3108,3
DRW: Plaque Strike	7435476	,2	3735	1990,8	2350	62,9	1451	1385	37,1
DRW: Icy Touch	4952780	,1	3639	1361	2209	58,9	978,3	1430	38,1	1952,3	111	3
DPS	13142(+/- 3170)
Total Damage	4731,02m	in 100h
Total runic power used: 2074460 (6588 wasted)
Threat Per Second	7795
Generated in	29s
Template:	kathablood
Priority:	Blood
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	Virulence
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

DeathStrike	518144416	10,7	35181	14728	19051	54,1	8841,6	16130	45,8	21680,3	21	,1
Obliterate	428976568	9,1	28362	15125	14450	50,9	10154,9	13912	49	20287,4	23	,1

So two things:
(1) Obl does more average damage than DS.
(2) with OBL you do less damage. This is because in the SIM you have to change Prio from:
DRM DS->IT->PS->HS->DC
into
IT->PS->DRM OBL->HS->DC
So you dont have the advantge of a full damage DS without diseases on the boss, and this is especially important with 15s diseases.

Decaying · 07/23/10, 10:35 AM

Your analysis is wrong. Post your full DS sim results and I'll go into more detail. This has been simmed before, and shown to not be viable. You can also tell it's not viable just by reviewing the talents you gain versus what you lose.

Chani · 07/23/10, 11:42 AM

The full DS sim is the SIM a couple of posts above.

Your saying its not viable, what the result of my analysis is, and still say my analysis is wrong. Not sure where you're aiming for... Should be basic math that OBL is stronger than DS if their crit values are comparable. The Key is that you cant OBL as much as DS, for Priority reasons...

Decaying · 07/23/10, 12:37 PM

Re-run the sims to show non damaging abilities and post both full results. I assume you're using GoD, correct?

Edit: I looked at your DS sim results above and don't see any necrosis or bcb entries. Why are you comparing the same subfrost build but only swapping DS for Obliterate? A more useful comparison would be comparing results from the standard 51/0/20 build to your proposed 51/20/0 obliterate build.

Chani · 07/23/10, 1:48 PM

The original question by kyin77 was if with a frostsubspec OBL is better than DS, and I gave the answer. I already said that with my setup the dps difference is marginal between forst and blood subspec and I also posted why. I just wanted to show for those interested that even with a frost subspec OBL is worse than DS (but does more damage on its own)

Decaying · 07/23/10, 2:40 PM

Originally Posted by Chani

The original question by kyin77 was if with a frostsubspec OBL is better than DS, and I gave the answer. I already said that with my setup the dps difference is marginal between forst and blood subspec and I also posted why. I just wanted to show for those interested that even with a frost subspec OBL is worse than DS (but does more damage on its own)

Kyin77's original question was if a frost subspec obliterate build was worth using over an unholy subspec death strike build, to which the answer is "No". While a frost subspec death strike build is actually superior to a frost subspec obliterate build, it still is inferior to the standard unholy subspec death strike build. So, long story short - frost subspec no matter what F/U strike you use is not worth it over the standard blood/unholy spec.

There is absolutely no reason to subspec frost - utility wise or dps wise. The playstyles are almost identical as well, except you'll just do less damage.

Chani · 07/24/10, 7:00 AM

Here are the two parses. And no I dont like the GOD builds... maybe they perform better, but not for my personal playstyle... as you can see the difference is a mere 300 dps (in SIM), I am pretty sure they perform equal on live.

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	1607885282	34,5	170426	12575,2	64651	37,9	7288,5	63211	37,1	14548,8	132	,1	42564	25	5099
HeartStrike	1344211981	28,8	108359	12405,2	55208	50,9	7256,3	53151	49	17753,3	86	,1
DeathStrike	507248505	10,9	35141	14434,7	19065	54,2	8680	16076	45,7	21259,3	23	,1
DeathCoil	308324979	6,6	46075	6691,8	28680	60,2	4858,2	17395	36,5	9715	1598	3,4
Diseases.FrostFever	172991600	3,7	90721	1906,9	90721	100	1906,9									76
Diseases.BloodPlague	171716190	3,7	90159	1904,6	90159	100	1904,6									75,6
DRW: Melee	110822942	2,4	28848	5113,9	10890	37,7	2957,1	10781	37,4	5913,7			7177	24,9	2071,1
PlagueStrike	95588932	2	18593	5141,1	11163	60	3672,8	7430	39,9	7347,1	15	,1
IcyTouch	79923561	1,7	18601	4296,7	11459	59,7	3106,1	7142	37,2	6207,1	605	3,2
BloodWorms	78842543	1,7	351080	224,6	351080	100
Ghoul	79735182	1,7	91725	1288,2	51745	56,4	1030,7	10152	11,1	1748,3			29828	32,5	290
DRW: Heart Strike	44523134	1	17290	2575,1	10982	63,5	1887	6308	36,5	3773,1
Army of the Dead	27237302	,6	315992	86,2	274785	87	85,1	41207	13	93,6
DRW: Death Strike	16336464	,4	5649	2891,9	3617	64	2125,5	2032	36	4256,2
DRW: Death Coil	12073502	,3	5629	2144,9	3411	58,6	1540	2218	38,1	4410,4	192	3,3
DRW: Plaque Strike	5460242	,1	2757	1980,5	1735	62,9	1440,1	1022	37,1
DRW: Icy Touch	4133238	,1	3026	1365,9	1849	59,2	983,3	1177	37,7	1966,9	97	3,1
DPS	12964(+/- 3167)
Total Damage	4667,06m	in 100h
Total runic power used: 2110740 (3095 wasted)
Threat Per Second	7693
Generated in	21s
Template:	kathablood
Priority:	Blood
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	Virulence
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ability	Damage done				hits			Crits			Misses		Glances			Uptime
	Total	%	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	%	Avg	#	Avg	#	%	Avg	%
MainHand	1341505268	27,8	143135	12491,9	54242	37,9	7227,3	53148	37,1	14460,3	113	,1	35745	25	5062,1
HeartStrike	1336647269	27,7	107983	12378,3	58109	53,8	7410,8	49874	46,2	18166	86	,1
DeathStrike	502875191	10,4	36000	13968,8	20603	57,2	8619,6	15397	42,7	21126,5	24	,1
DeathCoil	327488985	6,8	47263	6929,1	29396	62	5028,9	17867	37,7	10055,4	133	,3
Necrosis	260660611	5,4	143135	1821,1	143135	100
Diseases.FrostFever	178984481	3,7	104344	1715,3	104344	100	1715,3									87,3
Diseases.BloodPlague	177053578	3,7	103213	1715,4	103213	100	1715,4									86,8
BloodCakedBlade	144946224	3	43137	3360,1	43137	99,9	3360,1				32	,1
PlagueStrike	101563378	2,1	18000	5642,4	10261	57	3621,2	7739	43	8322,4	14	,1
DRW: Melee	91688646	1,9	23952	5097,2	8944	37,3	2941,8	9044	37,8	5869,9			5964	24,9	2060,6
BloodWorms	68352579	1,4	340380	200,8	340380	100
Ghoul	99385533	2,1	83199	1741,1	47784	57,4	1410,5	9298	11,2	2351,5			26117	31,4	387,5
IcyTouch	60635518	1,3	18000	3368,6	11060	61,3	2435,7	6940	38,5	4855,4	46	,3
Army of the Dead	45037045	,9	283968	158,6	246600	86,8	157,7	37368	13,2	164,8
DRW: Heart Strike	41022796	,9	15403	2663,3	9696	62,9	1944,7	5707	37,1	3884,2
DRW: Death Strike	16858285	,3	5870	2871,9	3705	63,1	2103,8	2165	36,9	4186,5
DRW: Death Coil	12347320	,3	5746	2148,9	3455	59,9	1538	2291	39,7	4678,6	22	,4
DRW: Plaque Strike	6725394	,1	3370	1995,7	2095	62,2	1451,2	1275	37,8
DRW: Icy Touch	4576159	,1	3358	1362,8	2043	60,6	979,8	1315	39	1957,7	11	,3
DPS	13384(+/- 3346)
Total Damage	4818,35m	in 100h
Total runic power used: 2098400 (64 wasted)
Threat Per Second	7900
Generated in	25s
Template:	Blood 51-00-20
Priority:	Blood
Presence:	Blood
Sigil:	Virulence
RuneEnchant:	FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:	True

Kaejin · 07/24/10, 8:40 AM

If you don't want to use an Unholy subspec then no one is going to force you, but the evidence (including your own sims) supports it being superior to Frost.

Being stubborn about it isn't going to magically make Frost subspec better.

Kaejin · 07/24/10, 2:56 PM

You're right, I did dumb math on the % business and I'm not sure what I was thinking there.

I still maintain that 300 DPS isn't what you would want to call something trivial, though. It's definitely a big enough gap that most people wouldn't consider saying the two specs perform equally. As an example, blood builds take Bloodworms because they do 100-200 DPS, despite the fact that there are other options that effect utility and play and even though some people don't like them.

Now I'm going to try to figure out what I was doing when I thought 9.6% was a reasonable number.

rh8452 · 07/26/10, 1:16 PM

I have no idea why disease uptime is so low in both parses. On a tank and spank boss your diseases should never, ever fall off.

Both sub frost and Obliterate were theorycrafted a long time ago and proven to be a DPS loss. Blood has not changed whatsoever since that time, nor have any game mechanics that affect it. In addition, GoD is also a DPS increase once near or at arpen cap due to the gain of an extra HS.

GoD is also exceedingly handy on heroic lich king. Blood is a solid spec for this fight (essentially one of the only fights which matters anymore), glyph of HS is an insignificant DPS loss replacing glyph of DS if you want an additional valk snare, Blood's cleave is exceptional when two raging spirits are active in transitions, and more.

51/0/20 is the -only- Blood DPS build which is viable. No other subspecs, no other FU strike, no futzing around, will produce more or even equal DPS than that build will. It has not changed since Ulduar. It has been proven many, many times now and will probably continue to be the same until 4.0.

Kaitliac · 08/13/10, 8:14 AM

(Reason is 10%AP buff lack in my raid...)

This is *always* an excellent reason to be blood, especially in a melee heavy raid, so long as WF and magic damage are already covered.

Here are the two parses. And no I dont like the GOD builds... maybe they perform better, but not for my personal playstyle... as you can see the difference is a mere 300 dps (in SIM), I am pretty sure they perform equal on live.

Sadly I believe you're probably mistaken. I think when playing, the gap would increase, not decrease. For reference, I was heavily into DW shadow-frost before the frost tree was redone to kill it, so let me shed some light on the root comparisons with what blood has access to.

Frost gains the 20% haste (always nice for a melee dps focused class), the 10% frost and shadow damage (negligible increases from either to diseases, a very small bump to death coil which should also be low). 3% crit on melee abilities. And 4% str. You can not take anything from UH and still get Endless Winter.

Unholy gains 3% spell hit, 6% crit and 30% damage on crit on plague strike, 15% damage on death coil (in a non GoD build), 3% str. Longer diseases. Then it also gains 20% non physical damage on auto attacks. And gains a 30% chance for 25% weapon damage + 12.5% per disease on auto attack.

So, let's break it down into a comparison. 20% melee haste versus necrosis, BCB, and longer diseases. While the haste does affect your GCD probably to the point where you can compress a rotation into your default disease duration, it's not really increasing your dps from anything except auto attack and maybe the odd death coil. Unholy pulls fairly far ahead here, since necrosis alone versus icy talons is fairly close to even.

The frost and shadow damage increases do help with disease damage, but even with someone else providing crypt fever, diseases shouldn't total more then 6% of your damage, probably less with more ArP. Which is really the point, this talent doesn't scale with your ArP, nor do diseases. 15% more death coil damage is obviously more than what death coil gains from 10% shadow damage. Between the two alone it comes out as fairly close to even. Plague strike gains a small boost (on a small portion of your damage) and should even out any gains Icy Touch would get from Black Ice and even some of IIT, especially since PS scales with ArP and IT doesn't. And your raid buffed crit should be nearing 50%.

What you're really left with are 3% spell hit (remember, if you miss with IT you just lost a GCD, which is huge in blood, although with a standard rotation an IT miss sets you back far less than DS or HS misses mid rotation) on Unholy's side, and an extra 1% str and 3% melee ability crit on Frost's. Really, the only thing interesting here is the 1% str... 3% melee specials crit can't even come close to making up the gap BCB creates. The 1% extra str is interesting and probably the only thing that gives something of a gear scaling edge to frost, but still shouldn't come close to BCB.

What you *really* need to focus on are how much of either provides scaling with ArP. Even without resorting to a sim it should be obvious that while the frost sub spec is "viable" it simply can't hold even with the unholy sub specs, especially as gear increases. While a sim might manage to play both to within 300 dps of each other in your gear, part of that is going to be the sim managing to make use of the 20% haste from Icy Talons very efficiently. In real play, this is likely to only really be a bonus to your auto attack. Not to mention that even a sim isn't going to magically find extra RP in a blood spec, even if it does gain extra GCDs. Also auto attack benefiting talents like necrosis, bcb, and icy talons tend to inflate in real play versus sims, especially if you don't sim with your latency set high enough, but also simply due to the human element. Or do you do you normally do your simmed dps?