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Old 09/11/09, 7:38 AM   #1651
Sakuratei
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Frostmane (EU)
Originally Posted by sweberry View Post
SIGH, writing a long response and browser freezes up just when I'm about to post it, in short:

I misread! I was sure I read melee but as you say it seems the results truly point toward spell crit. What kind of results did they get? I'd love to see it to compare what's different to what Tompin got.

I did find that the 4 piece T9 DK bonus shares the same aura effect as the 4 piece T9 Druid Resto bonus.

Effect Apply Aura: ?? (Aura #286) (7)

As far as I know the resto-bonus is of spell crit? If anything it's not melee.
But then again the DK bonus has another effect thrown on it that I don't understand.
The posts I viewed can be found Here and Here.

Effect #2 Apply Aura: Add % Modifier (15)
Value: 100

Sounds likeit qould very well tie in with the strange "Spell crit + 15%" theory you heard of. However, none of the tests indicate that the crit chance would be spell crit + 15%, or 15% of spell crit, or 115% of any of the crits.

Last edited by Sakuratei : 09/11/09 at 7:38 AM. Reason: formatting

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Old 09/11/09, 8:16 AM   #1652
Tompin
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Outland (EU)
This is decently interesting I think. Check out the combat log in this screenshot.



It would appear that wandering plague and the dot crits are on different rolls. WP critting doesn't mean that FF/BP crits, and FF/BP critting doesn't mean WP proccs. However, when they do happen at the same time, both seem to be crits. WP still doesn't technically crit, it just does double damage. Maybe this should go in the Unholy thread though?

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Old 09/11/09, 8:43 AM   #1653
Amroo
LF sun
 
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Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Anub'arak (EU)
Originally Posted by Tompin View Post
WP still doesn't technically crit, it just does double damage. Maybe this should go in the Unholy thread though?
You pretty much explained it yourself. WP is not a crit, but a proc based on your crit chance that does damage equal to the disease tick to the target and all targets around. So if a disease crits and WP procs at the same time, WP technically doesn't crit (because it cannot), but simply copies the critical damage of the disease to its targets (so you get the impression of a crit).

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Old 09/11/09, 10:16 AM   #1654
sweberry
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Pretty much wath Amroo said, Tompin.

If you look just like a few posts back I clearly explained how WP works. It's not a crit. It's a different roll. It copies the exact damage from the disease, whether it's a hit or a crit.

@Sakuratei: Yeah, I actually don't believe in the +15%-crap myself. I think the parenthesis-numbers are just codes for different stuff, not actual percentage numbers or something. It's just mildly annoying how 2 tests shows melee, 1 shows spell, and it shares aura with a Resto-bonus... Whoever here (Tompin?) did the tests and found it to be spell crit - care to redo another test?

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Old 09/11/09, 10:34 AM   #1655
Silarn
Von Kaiser
 
Worgen Death Knight
 
Argent Dawn
While I'm much more tempted to say we simply need a very extended test to see definitive results, it IS possible they somehow have the 4T9 bonus detect your spec. With frost and unholy diseases already hitting a fair amount harder than blood, a similar crit chance would make it much more ideal for those specs. However, if they somehow have it based off spell hit in f/u and melee crit in blood, it would probably even the value of the bonus.

But I don't really expect that is the case... seems too complicated for a set bonus.

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Old 09/11/09, 11:29 AM   #1656
Tompin
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Outland (EU)
Some more testing on spell vs melee crit for 4pT9. This time, I was unholy specced which brought my crit up to 20.95% for spells, and 28.39% for melee.

Frost Fever: 2021 hits, 613 crits (~23.3%)
Blood Plague: 1990 hits, 648 crits (~24.6%)

5272 ticks total with a crit rate of 23.9%.
Again closer to spell crit than melee crit, but also, again, consistently and significantly higher than spell crit.

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Old 09/11/09, 11:40 AM   #1657
Alatyr
Von Kaiser
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Icecrown
Originally Posted by Tompin View Post
Some more testing on spell vs melee crit for 4pT9. This time, I was unholy specced which brought my crit up to 20.95% for spells, and 28.39% for melee.

Frost Fever: 2021 hits, 613 crits (~23.3%)
Blood Plague: 1990 hits, 648 crits (~24.6%)

5272 ticks total with a crit rate of 23.9%.
Again closer to spell crit than melee crit, but also, again, consistently and significantly higher than spell crit.
Assuming you were doing this on the boss dummy, wouldn't this be roughly in line with melee crit minus the crit reduction against a higher-level mob? I believe the crit reduction is about 4.5%, though I've not seen data on this for a while.

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Old 09/11/09, 11:47 AM   #1658
Tompin
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Outland (EU)
Originally Posted by Alatyr View Post
Assuming you were doing this on the boss dummy, wouldn't this be roughly in line with melee crit minus the crit reduction against a higher-level mob? I believe the crit reduction is about 4.5%, though I've not seen data on this for a while.
I was actually thinking about that while doing the test, and I was indeed doing it on a Boss dummy. Doing some test on lvl75 dummies as we speak.

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Old 09/11/09, 11:51 AM   #1659
dr_AllCOM3
Great Tiger
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Blutkessel (EU)
Originally Posted by Tompin View Post
Some more testing on spell vs melee crit for 4pT9. This time, I was unholy specced which brought my crit up to 20.95% for spells, and 28.39% for melee.

5272 ticks total with a crit rate of 23.9%.
28,4% melee - 4,8% boss malus = 23,6%
It's definitely melee crit.


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Old 09/11/09, 11:54 AM   #1660
Tompin
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Outland (EU)
Yep, after about a thousand ticks on lvl75 dummies, I'm seeing 30%+ crit rates, so it's definitely melee crit. Good news.

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Old 09/12/09, 1:55 PM   #1661
testament0221
Banned
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Dethecus
Question to all ex-Bloodknights that have switched to DW post 3.2:

Okay, so I want to know what effects switching to DW has had on your dps? Higher? Lower? Same?

I'm wanting to switch, as Blood is becoming a bit stale atm, but obviously I don't want to hurt the raid with lower dps.

I have two main concerns right now about switching to DW Frost. The first are my weapons. I currently have this [Razorscale Talon] and this [Grimhorn Crusher] for weapons, but I'm waiting to get the mace for 5 man ToC to drop until I actually switch. Would the Talon and Mace be good enough to make the switch to DW?

And my second concern is cooldowns. As blood, I know that if something has to die quickly, I can hit my DRW/Hysteria macro and start throwing some heat around. I don't feel as though I have that with DW. And as a result, I feel like my dps will go down because of it.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

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Old 09/12/09, 2:35 PM   #1662
Kapaneus
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Twisting Nether
I don't think my dps has changed all that much. Not that I've noticed anyway. You are right, there is a lack of burst, but frost more than makes up for it in sustained damage along with a <35% hp 'execute' range. Its been said again and again, it really just comes down to playstyle.

I switched back to blood a week ago for a night and what I noticed the most was how bored I was with the rotation haha. KM+Rime has a bit of a slot machine endorphin rush to it that I had just gotten way too used to. I switched back the next day. Bottom line is, play what you feel is fun.

As for weapons, use whatever gives you the highest strike damage and you'll do fine.

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Old 09/12/09, 3:43 PM   #1663
Xaeder
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by testament0221 View Post
Question to all ex-Bloodknights that have switched to DW post 3.2:

Okay, so I want to know what effects switching to DW has had on your dps? Higher? Lower? Same?

I'm wanting to switch, as Blood is becoming a bit stale atm, but obviously I don't want to hurt the raid with lower dps.

I have two main concerns right now about switching to DW Frost. The first are my weapons. I currently have this [Razorscale Talon] and this [Grimhorn Crusher] for weapons, but I'm waiting to get the mace for 5 man ToC to drop until I actually switch. Would the Talon and Mace be good enough to make the switch to DW?

And my second concern is cooldowns. As blood, I know that if something has to die quickly, I can hit my DRW/Hysteria macro and start throwing some heat around. I don't feel as though I have that with DW. And as a result, I feel like my dps will go down because of it.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
I'm also rocking Talon and the Mace from ToC, to be completely honest its just one of those things your going to have to test out yourself. My DPS has gone up quite a bit since i went DW but i also only switched from the Frost 2h Icy touch Machine Gun spec, so going from blood to DW its harder to tell. Though you may want to think about whether you have an enhancement shaman or not or another frost DK, if you don't the haste buff may benefit the whole raid more than yourself.

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Old 09/12/09, 6:39 PM   #1664
Necromir
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Thunderhorn
Future of Dual Wield Unholy...

Looks kind of bleak. With the change to Dirge and the fact that Subversion will be needed for extra SS damage coupled with the fact you can't get the points in blood for the 5% crit bonus to melee damage for 4pc t9, I'm not sure how DW unholy will work out. Atleast the 0/18/53 spec that boosted death coil damage. Now that crit will be much higher on the necessary stat weights and ArP will be dropping I'm just not sure how DW Unholy will survive.

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Old 09/12/09, 11:09 PM   #1665
jokeyrhyme
Glass Joe
 
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Gnome Death Knight
 
Barthilas
@Necromir:
I used to Frost DW DPS and that was great. I suspect I'll go back to this after a few more patches.

However, at the moment I find I can get slightly better DPS with an Unholy DW build, focusing on single-rune abilities and Death Coil. So I use neither Obliterate nor Scourge Strike. The changes to Subversion are welcome, but I don't think this'll be enough to significantly change the way we exploit Unholy for DW.

To be honest, if I were in Blizzard's shoes, I'm not sure what I'd try to do to kill Unholy DW, and I'm not sure it's something I'd feel necessary. The Subversion change only helps encourage Obliterate-Unholy players to switch back to Scourge Strike.

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