DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand - Page 118

Fargom · 09/24/09, 2:01 PM

If builds are simming within a few hundred dps of each other, we need to consider said specs to be competitive and move forward with live testing. The simulators are great, but they can't take everything into account. (As noted above)

As un scientific as it sounds, we might just end up with a situation where we have 4 viable builds and which works best for an individual is entirely determined by raid comp and current gear. One thing I'd like to mention is that the ability to spread Ebon plaguebringer to all adds in an instant is a valuable raid ability that should not be underestimated.

Prayformercy · 09/24/09, 2:37 PM

for the 3-51-17 im wondering why Imp Frost Presence is picked up. Couldnt those points be better spent for DPS increasing talents?

Kithus · 09/24/09, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by Prayformercy

for the 3-51-17 im wondering why Imp Frost Presence is picked up. Couldnt those points be better spent for DPS increasing talents?

There isn't much else in the tree to pick up and you need 51 total points there. The 6% stam is at least increased survivability. An argument could be made for endless winter, for situations that require you to interrupt, or icy reach to improve the range of howling blast for aoe situations.

Max zero · 09/24/09, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Fargom

If builds are simming within a few hundred dps of each other, we need to consider said specs to be competitive and move forward with live testing. The simulators are great, but they can't take everything into account. (As noted above)

As un scientific as it sounds, we might just end up with a situation where we have 4 viable builds and which works best for an individual is entirely determined by raid comp and current gear. One thing I'd like to mention is that the ability to spread Ebon plaguebringer to all adds in an instant is a valuable raid ability that should not be underestimated.

You can go much further then that:

1) The Unholy spec provides two unique raid buffs (AoE CoE and Crypt Fever) compared to the 3/51/17 Frost's zero raid buffs. If just one Lock can switch from CoE to CoA or CoD, the damage gap is gone.
2) The Unholy spec has far better AoE and makes most other AoE'ers much better (especially Frost DKs).
3) The Unholy spec has better survivability (Bone Shield v UA).
4) The Unholy pet is controllable and much more reliable.
5) The Unholy spec has a powerful DPS CD it can use if there is a key burn phase (eg Anub phase three).
6) The Unholy rotation deals with laggy connections or high latency areas much better then a GoD rotation.

Unfortunately the simulator does not count any of the above factors.

Basically the Frost DK gains an extra 1.3% sustained single target DPS at the expense of all of the above and still needs a Unholy DK in the raid to maximize its DPS.

levalexi · 09/24/09, 5:32 PM

are there any stat weights for the 4- piece t9? im sitting on 3 pieces right now and i dont know if i should get this one or this . im expertise capped atm, so the expertise on the helm would be wasted. im currently using my t8.5 helm and chest. i just need some confirmation as to weather on not the t9 4 piece is worth it. ty for any help

Blackïce · 09/24/09, 5:42 PM

The 4P is VERY worth it to say the least.

Bloody_sorcerer · 09/24/09, 5:45 PM

Originally Posted by levalexi

are there any stat weights for the 4- piece t9? im sitting on 3 pieces right now and i dont know if i should get this one or this . im expertise capped atm, so the expertise on the helm would be wasted. im currently using my t8.5 helm and chest. i just need some confirmation as to weather on not the t9 4 piece is worth it. ty for any help

It's absolutely worth getting, but get the Titanium Razorplate anyways; the expertise on the T9 hat will compensate for the expertise lost from changing breastplates.

RADRyanD · 09/24/09, 8:43 PM

The simulator will not run on my computer so I can't do it myself so... has anyone else done some more solid simulation comparing Awareness to Virulence besides the napkin math of it affecting the other strikes and diseases in light of the nerf to ArP from this patch (talking about 0/53/18 or 3/51/17 Frost builds)?

Fearlezz · 09/25/09, 11:21 AM

For me, Virulence sims around 50-100 Dps more than Awareness, and also changes the stat weights a bit. With Awareness, OB is doing 30%ish of total dmg while FS is around 20%ish so Arp is worth more, but if I switch to Virulence, FS even overtakes OB on the total damage done (Arp becomes a bit less valuable). Might not be the same for everyone, but that's what I get for my set of gear.

Azuwraith · 09/25/09, 1:22 PM

There's a small thing that has been bothering me for a while.

People are saying (and I agree) that GoD simulates badly in short fights - this is mainly due to the way the simulator works with GoD, not that GoD is actually bad in short fights.

Since the simulator just recasts diseases when ap gets higher than when current diseases were applied, it takes considerable time for it to get proper diseases up - i.e in five minute long fights it wastes a lot of dps setting up diseases.

The reason I don't feel this reflects the real situation is that you can use specific rotations to start the fight with strong diseases every time (and ideal diseases most of the time).

personally I use:

For unholy GoD: IT-PS-SS-BS-BS-IT-PS and then go into the priority system.
For frost Gos: BS-BS-IT-PS-OB-UA-BT-IT-PS and then go into the priority system.

Personally, if I have to simulate GoD specs, I feel that a few hours fight is going to simulate the spec a lot more realistically than a 1000x5 minutes simulation is.

Necromir · 09/25/09, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Azuwraith

There's a small thing that has been bothering me for a while.

People are saying (and I agree) that GoD simulates badly in short fights - this is mainly due to the way the simulator works with GoD, not that GoD is actually bad in short fights.

Since the simulator just recasts diseases when ap gets higher than when current diseases were applied, it takes considerable time for it to get proper diseases up - i.e in five minute long fights it wastes a lot of dps setting up diseases.

The reason I don't feel this reflects the real situation is that you can use specific rotations to start the fight with strong diseases every time (and ideal diseases most of the time).

personally I use:

For unholy GoD: IT-PS-SS-BS-BS-IT-PS and then go into the priority system.
For frost Gos: BS-BS-IT-PS-OB-UA-BT-IT-PS and then go into the priority system.

Personally, if I have to simulate GoD specs, I feel that a few hours fight is going to simulate the spec a lot more realistically than a 1000x5 minutes simulation is.

There are defintely finghts where GoD would shine but then it's only about 50% of the ToC fights. I agree with you prolonging your rotation before starting priority to get all your trinkets/enchants etc to pop works wonders. As I stated earlier though only 2.5 of the fights favor GoD. There are too many submerges, ground slams, target changes to make GoD work perfectly although I think it would be worth using in a dual spec for say the Champions fight (if you are the chillblains/hungering cold dk) and jaraxxus.

Rest · 09/25/09, 2:40 PM

Hi, first-time poster. I'm a DK wearing mostly level 213 to 226 PvP epics from BGs (equivalent to level 187 or 200 epics in PvE I'd wager) and now dual-wielding Tankards o' Terror. I'm sure there are some others out there in this circumstance, at least on DK alts. So I wanted to find the best spec for heroic 5-mans and Naxx at this level of gearage.

With this in mind, I put my lowly stats through the simulator and removed all buffs (you can't really rely on any particular buff in pugged heroics, after all). Low and behold, I found a spec that absolutely blows 0/53/18 and 3/51/17 away.

That spec is 15-55-1.

15-55-1
Priority: Frost (FF>BP>KMRime>OB>BS>FS>Rime)
Party Buff: Improved Icy Talons
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Awareness
Runeforge: FC, RI
Glyphs: Disease, Obliterate, Frost Strike
DPS: 3545
TPS: 2118

3-51-17
Priority: Frost (FF>BP>KMRime>OB>BS>FS>Rime)
Party Buff: none
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Awareness
Runeforge: FC, RI
Glyphs: Icy Touch, Obliterate, Frost Strike
DPS: 3465
TPS: 2081

0-53-18
Priority: Frost (FF>BP>KMRime>OB>BS>FS>Rime)
Party Buff: Improved Icy Talons
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Awareness
Runeforge: FC, RI
Glyphs: Icy Touch, Obliterate, Frost Strike
DPS: 3397
TPS: 2711

0-17-54
Priority: Unholy (BP>FF>DCMax>IT>BS>DC>GF>PS)
Party Buff: Ebon Plaguebringer
Presence: Unholy
Sigil: Vengeful Heart
Runeforge: FC, RI
Glyphs: Ghoul, Dark Death, Unholy Blight
DPS: 3179
TPS: 2135

Glyph of Disease is the obvious choice for a "short disease" spec such as 15-55-1, but for the record the spec was still unconditionally superior to the leading specs even with Glyph of Icy Touch (3502 DPS, 2106 TPS).

I don't think the recommended specs of 0-53-18, 3-51-17, or 0-17-54 are even remotely viable for fresh 80 DW DKs compared to my spec. It's not just about their lower DPS, it's also the facts that 3-51-17 has no party buff and 0-53-18 generates 30% more threat. (And Unholy DW is by far the worst of the bunch at this level.)

Bear in mind that because Bladed Armor does not scale well, when a DK gets geared and/or starts running Ulduar, he will probably want to move on to 0-53-18 or 3-51-17. My 15-55-1 spec is for DKs at the level of running Heroics and lower-tier raids like 10-man Naxx.

I also tried simulating them all with one of the more common Heroic buffs, Blessing of Kings. Results were very similar, but it's probably not worth reposting numbers for every possible little buff you might get in a Heroic.

Originally Posted by Fargom

Builds using a blood subspec have been shown to be inferior to the unholy subspec flavor. This is mostly due to bladed armor's poor scaling, and the already high crit rate on various abilities. Dark conviction is simply not that valuable to a frost build.

I want to point out that Bladed Armor is superior to the Unholy tree equivalents at least through level 219-226'ish armor ratings. So the statement assumes we all start DW whilst already wearing Ulduar gear.

Azuwraith · 09/25/09, 2:51 PM

Originally Posted by Necromir

There are defintely finghts where GoD would shine but then it's only about 50% of the ToC fights. I agree with you prolonging your rotation before starting priority to get all your trinkets/enchants etc to pop works wonders. As I stated earlier though only 2.5 of the fights favor GoD. There are too many submerges, ground slams, target changes to make GoD work perfectly although I think it would be worth using in a dual spec for say the Champions fight (if you are the chillblains/hungering cold dk) and jaraxxus.

Generally I agree with you, however from personal experience GoD specs outperform GoIT specs even in target switching fights (using power auras to be able to easily set up "strong" diseases mid fight helps a lot with this)

Fearlezz · 09/25/09, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Rest

Hi, first-time poster. I'm a DK wearing mostly level 213 to 226 PvP epics from BGs (equivalent to level 187 or 200 epics in PvE I'd wager) and now dual-wielding Tankards o' Terror. I'm sure there are some others out there in this circumstance, at least on DK alts. So I wanted to find the best spec for heroic 5-mans and Naxx at this level of gearage.

With this in mind, I put my lowly stats through the simulator and removed all buffs (you can't really rely on any particular buff in pugged heroics, after all). Low and behold, I found a spec that absolutely blows 0/53/18 and 3/51/17 away.

That spec is 15-55-1.

If you are doing a spec for "heroics" and maybe a 10man or two, there is no point maximizing single target damage since you will be fighting trash 90%+ of the time and it mostly doesn't live longer than 10-20 sec anyway. You would probably get more mileage out of HB glyph than disease glyph. Since you probably won't have +3% spell hit from debuffs, you might wanna go at least 3 points in Unholy, and get epidemic in my oppinion. Longer diseases = more obliterates = more Rime procs = more Aoe damage. Also, since PVP gear tends to be more crit heavy (no arp or simmilar stats on it), Dark Conviction would be worth less.

Also, getting into a 10man with at least 2-3 important melee buffs is almost impossible anymore so you might wanna scratch the "no buffs" scenario in the sim.

I would recommend a spec along the lines of 3/55/13 (Glyph of HB, OB, FS), threat reduction and OB crit from blood, all essential frost talents and WF + diseases, hit and str talents from unholy. Might not "sim" better, but should give you best performance all around.

direddyre · 09/25/09, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by Necromir

There are defintely finghts where GoD would shine but then it's only about 50% of the ToC fights. I agree with you prolonging your rotation before starting priority to get all your trinkets/enchants etc to pop works wonders. As I stated earlier though only 2.5 of the fights favor GoD. There are too many submerges, ground slams, target changes to make GoD work perfectly although I think it would be worth using in a dual spec for say the Champions fight (if you are the chillblains/hungering cold dk) and jaraxxus.

If you use GoIT with a 20 sec disease rotation, you will just end up gcd and RP capped, that's simple math and everybody who tried agrees. If you use GoD with a 20 sec disease rotation (so without actually using the glyph) you will ALSO end up gcd and RP capped, it just takes a little longer and is maybe a bit more reliant on Rime Procs, but I haven't noticed a dps decrease from GoIT.

If you use GoD spec with a GoD rotation you will finally have room to play around and if you do things right you will still be gcd capped, and deal more damage.

What I'm trying to say is, you're approaching this the wrong way, GoD doesn't need a specific fight to do good, it will always do good, but in certain situations it does even better (by a pretty long shot). I might be exaggerating a little now, but imo GoD specs are the only Frost specs that are actually able to do competitive dps in a highly optimised raid group compared to Blood/Unholy.