I just tried 10/54/7 during our 25man PTR raid. I used UP, the Valkyr encounter is pretty movement heavy and the number of GCDs used makes UP much more desirable than BP. I missed some Rime procs due to a very basic interface (staring at your buff bar sucks). The encounter has a temporary damage modification buff so don't take the numbers too seriously.

Rotation used: IT-PS-BS-BS-OB-Dump
OB-OB-OB-Dump

Weapons used:
MH (with FC):[Serilas, Blood Blade of Invar One-Arm]
OH (with RI):[Razorscale Talon]

The rest of my gear is identical to my current armory profile.

Recount shot #1
Recount shot #2

Unfortunately I haven't got the option for further raid tests as no more bosses are currently available, not even the Patchwerk dummies. Nonetheless the spec looks solid and is fun to play. I'll try to keep you updated as the PTR progresses.

If you are going to compare simulator results, you may want to set a baseline to use. Different specs scale differently. If one of you is using best in slot and the other is using pre-heroic, the results may well be different. The better scaling build may overtake the lesser scaling build if you use the highest end of stats. It may also be helpful to know what numbers you are generating from the sims for DPS so we can compare results from tests we do to tests that you do.

For example, using my most recent gear list from DW Unholy DPS as a Human (Adding 1% Hit for the Draenei aura and 3 Expertise racial), I get this for 0/18/53:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10072

DPS 7134
Total Damage 25681520652 in 1000 h

Using a modified Unholy priority that uses Obliterate instead of Scourge Strike. Note this DPS result does not use Epic Gems and uses the glove enchant +15 Str. For actual 3.2, you'll use Epic Gems and changed profession bonuses so the actual DPS will be higher.

On the 0/17/54 DWUH spec. I am not sure the simulator is calculating Unholy Blight correctly. If it rolls like ignite/deep wounds, then we shall assume that it only stacks up twice, it is hard to explain here, but to achieve optimum Unholy Blight I would assume you want to fire off a DC every 5 seconds on average (or 2 every 10 back to back). The problem with the 0/17/54 spec, is that it is completely build around generating maximum RP, fast GCD with UP, and maximum DC spamming. A spamming deathcoil may actually wind up overwriting a significant portion of Unholy Blight and may not be as large an increase in DPS as most are assuming. Olgrin's build is most likely going to be the best DWUH next patch from what the simulators are telling me, and is still ahead of the DW frost.

Doesn't seem a very easy fight to judge performance on, given the damage buffs (and also the learning process).

A quick thing i'm observing is:

DPS: 7984
Damage done: 2.45 millions

Frost strike: 123 728114 29.7%
Obliterate: 105 583796 23.9%
Melee: 364 570535 23.3%
Howling Blast: 37 202851 8.3%
Frost Fever: 91270 3.7%
Blood Plague: 89643 3.6%
Blood Strike: 88954 3.6%
Icy Touch: 48000 2.0%

This sums to 2403163, so we can assume proccs + plague strike doing 48k more damage to the to 2.45 millions.



The first observation is that the Blood Strike buffs are laughable. If we can assume the FS nerfs to amount between 10 and 15%, the total damage from BS would barely make up for that - the increased disease damage is the tiniest fraction of it. I would like to see someone test raid damage for Frost 2h, because from this evidence I think we can declare it dead and buried.

The second observation is on UP. Move speed considerations aside, I'm looking at the damage. Let's try (it's barbaric I know, but I'm expecting the results to be eloquent enough) to translate you damage in what you would have done in BP.

You have 105 OB, so assuming 4 per rotation we can assume around 25 rotation. That would mean 123/25 = 4,92 FS per rotation. Let's say you lose 1 FS per rotation due to the presence change, so we drop them to 4 (with 4 FS your rotation has 1-2 gcds for HB anyways) and thus reduce overall FS damage to 80% of the original. We'll also assume you lost 5 of your HB due to having less GCDs (it's exaggerate, but let's play careful).

Now, we reduce this damage as said above and apply the BP damage buffs:

Frost strike: 728114 old/ 669865 new
Obliterate: 583796 old/ 671365 new
Melee: 570535 old and new
Howling Blast: 202851 old/ 209950 new
Frost Fever: 91270 old/ 104960 new
Blood Plague: 89643 old/ 103089 new
Blood Strike: 88954 old/ 102297 new
Icy Touch: 48000 old/ 55200 new
Plague Strike: 47500 old/ 54625 new

The new damage sum is 2.54 million. About 100k damage over 299 seconds is a 330 dps increase. Consider these numbers skyrocket the same second you have any form of AoE, as the damage buffs from BP scale linearly with targets on HB/diseases. This is also calculated by running BP as a rotation system instead of a priority one. In reality, you would lose BS and not FS most of the time, so the scaling would be a lot better.

It's a very rough analysis, but honestly I don't see the choice of UP being already cemented in stone for Frost DW. The rotation has 8 rune GCDs, with no RP generation spamm, which leave 5-6 free GCDs. Assuming the Icy Touch glyph, you generate 135 RP, so even assuming Butchery and druid healing buffs, I don't see a huge need for extra GCDs for extra FS. Even if you end up having to delay the rotation to fit Ryme proccs, on aoe situations the BP damage gain will be still much obvious, and in single target situations it will probably be the same.

It's definitely working with more than two Death Coils.

Launching three in a row in Unholy Presence gave me:

2199 DC hit
1978 DC hit (220 resist)
44 UB tick
1758 DC hit (440 resist)
63 UB tick (16 resist)
107
85 (21)
107
85 (21)
96 (11)
107
106
107
107
107

5935 total Death Coil damage (we can ignore the 660 resisted because it won't count for UB damage)
1190 UB damage (We add the 69 resisted)

1190/5935 = 20.05%

Thanks for the testing Disargeria, seems to be working as expected then.

I set up the new gear set for unholy, and sorted a discrepancy with Blood Plague (basically, using 0 ms meant it would overwrite BP at 0.00 sec left to next tick, without that tick ever happening, so I added some minor latency and tested again - I think this has caused my earlier unholy tests to be 50-100 DPS too low). The 0/17/54 spec (this is still the same as the one listed at the top of the DW Unholy DPS thread, except Desecration points moved to Desolation and Unholy Blight) seems to be ~50 dps ahead of 10/54/7 at very low latencies (tested with 10ms). Testing with 150 and 250ms the Frost spec seems to pull ahead slightly (around 10/40 dps respectively for 150/250ms).

For the spec you posted Orlgin, I didn't really have all the info for testing it (Sigil (VH I guess?), actual priority (went with BP>FF>OB>BS>DC), Presence (seems like Blood?)), I tried digging up what info I could find and tested a few different combinations, but I'm getting values that are ~500 dps below the other two specs (note: I assumed you wanted 4p T8 with this, so I went with gearsets optimised for the other two specs statwise with 4P bonus). Edit: Actually if you wouldn't mind providing the gear stats you used for your testing, or whatever you consider BiS for your spec, that could be helpful as well.

Actual DPS values.. they won't match your simulated values, as especially the autoattack +RoR/FS interaction that I removed will mean my DPS is going to be a fair bit lower, and other changes will go both ways I guess. Anyway, I'll post two quick simulations with 10ms:

10/54/7 (BP, Awareness Sigil, FC/RI):

Ability	Total	%	Landed	Hit%	Crit%	Miss%	Average
Obliterate	178400113	31	33186	35	64	0	5375
PlagueStrike	10641155	1	8364	53	46	0	1272
IcyTouch	15297859	2	4190	40	56	2	3651
FrostStrike	140493842	24	35096	43	56	0	4003
HowlingBlast	14655140	2	2113	57	39	3	6935
BloodStrike	45824934	8	15988	50	49	0	2866
FrostFever	21384135	3	25967	100	0	0	823
BloodPlague	19422041	3	25994	100	0	0	747
MainHand	75844957	13	34916	41	40	17	2172
OffHand	43685479	7	35048	42	40	17	1246
Ghoul	2342234	0	18311	78	13	8	127
Raz	385528	0	35048	100	0	0	11
DPS 6578

0/17/54 (UP, VH Sigil, FC/FC):

Ability	Total	%	Landed	Hit%	Crit%	Miss%	Average
Plague Strike	25305848	4	14480	50	48	1	1747
Icy Touch	67745147	11	30681	65	34	0	2208
Blood Strike	16677774	2	8490	55	42	1	1964
Death Coil	141680349	24	26775	57	42	0	5291
UB	28337083	4	26775	100	0	0	1058
Frost Fever	15118196	2	16134	100	0	0	937
Blood Plague	21476168	3	22927	100	0	0	936
Necrosis	16197852	2	111629	100	0	0	145
Blood Caked Blade	16485198	2	33118	98	0	1	497
Wandering Plague	15041005	2	16058	100	0	0	936
Main Hand	73666313	12	39879	42	42	14	1847
Off Hand	42302822	7	71750	42	42	14	589
Ghoul	65002845	11	90031	80	12	6	722
Gargoyle	28651806	4	9491	85	12	1	3018
DPS 6640

Edit: Looking over the results I just realised that only off-hand autoattacks were proccing Razorice, it's still a pretty neglible amount of damage but I'll fix it to work for offhand strikes as well.

Astalion, I believe UB is still bugged, as GC had stated it would be a mechanic as ignite and deep wounds runs. Those do not refresh the duration of the initial damage, but only add up the overlapping ticks of the multiple applications into one buff. Unholy Blight lasts 10 seconds, I will use 1 tick per second for this, and use simple 5,000 dmg DC with a 1,000 dmg UB for a flat 20% as comparison.

DC1 - 5000
UB - 100
UB - 100
UB - 100
UB -100
DC2 - 5000
UB - 200 (this is 100 from the first dc, 100 from the second dc, with 5 ticks remaining on first DC)
UB - 200
UB - 200
DC3 - 5000
UB - 300 (100 x3 from each DC, with 2 ticks remaining on first DC)
UB - 300
UB - 300
UB - 200 (the first DC stack fell off, dropping it down to a 2 stack for 200 per tick)
UB - 200
UB - 200
UB - 200
UB - 100 (second DC stack fell off, leaving only last DC)
UB - 100
UB - 100

Looking at the testing for Disargeria, he allowed 12 ticks of UB. Using the mechanic that the ignite and deep wounds uses (which again is what GC stated that UB was supposed to act like), the final 2 ticks of his UB testing should have shown about 75 damage per tick, which is the per-tick of 20% for the last 2 DC's fired. His shows a full 100+ per tick, which is the per-tick of 20% of all 3 DC's fired, which means that currently UB is not allowing the previous DC's to fall off.

I would like to see a test done with 5 DC's to see how high it is actually stacking, and if there is a stack limit. If there is no stack limit, and it is not falling off, then it will be running into the same problem that deep wounds had in early WotLK with warriors dealing 7k+ dps in mediocre gear, and the majority of that being bleed damage.

What about

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10072

This just subs UB and DC as a rune dump instead of FS?

I was lumping it in with deep wounds/ignite as that is what GC said it was going to act like. Either way, I stand corrected if UB is infact working as intended, but with the 0/17/54 build firing off DC's so quickly, I could see some form of a nerf to it at some point.

@Ventress: That spec seems to be roughly 1k dps behind the 10/54/7 one. I remember doing some early tests with 30% UB, BA, Impurity, HB, maxed KM, etc (aka far more than we have talent points for, I don't remember the exact details though) and only then did it get close to using FS.

@mongoose221: My description of the mechanics were taken from what the Ignite/DW mechanics were last I checked though :P

In the DW Unholy thread, we use 200ms latency which is as low as you probably want to go. Shamans, which have been using simulations longer than Death Knights have been around, use simulations of 5000 hours and use a minimum of 200ms to make their simulations as close as possible to reality. I personally use 1000 hours as 5000 can break the DK sim sometimes which is frustrating when it takes that long.

Quoted from Malan: If you want the sim to reflect in-game a little more, turn up the min and max lag. Too often I see people posting here with 0 or 100ms on the lag configurations. That isn't realistic at all. Even if your actual network lag is 100ms or less, there is still a human reaction time to seeing an ability ready for use and then actually hitting the button. Most people probably ought to run their lag in the sim at anywhere from 200-500ms.

Not to say all people will need it that high but 10ms isn't a realistic number at all.

Disease scaling with AP was changed on the PTR which isn't reflected on the sim so disease damage + Wandering Plague damage numbers will be different on the PTR than on the simulator.

I suggest BiS for Ulduar using Epic Gems to reflect what people will likely have when the patch actually comes out. Every raider that is serious will have a stockpile of Honor, Tokens, and Titanium Ore so they can quickly regem when the patch hits. Take your spec, build a BiS, and run a simulation based on that. Once we get a baseline of what each spec can put out, we can focus testing on those builds that show promise.

As for BCB, an old test showed Rage of Rivendare does work on it. However, that test was a while back and it may be worth your time to test it again. Blood Caked Blade has been changed a few times since then.

Your modified simulator is based on an older model which had Necrosis bugged so the off-hand hits produced a 0 result. Necrosis should be 4-5% of total damage. He's since fixed that bug on his newest version. Just a warning: when I try to get EP calculations, I run into an error that is causing negative numbers to appear. I use the older version to do my EP calculation (the live one) that I inputted into Zerack's sheet for my BiS list. You may have difficulty generating accurate EP values unless you fixed that problem.