People are saying that DW unholy is inferior to 2h unholy in 3.2, as if it's a well-known fact. The 2h unholy build is taking a SS nerf (0/17/54 doesn't use it), and the new UB should benefit DW unholy more than 2h, since it throws out considerably more DCs. I don't believe anyone has done any real math or sims comparing the two, which would be a lot more useful than just saying we shouldn't discuss DW unholy.
Using the simulators which is the only viable testing possible right now with all the bugs on the PTR, 2H Unholy is definitely more viable and higher DPS than DW Unholy and has been sited in this thread and others.
The Current DW Unholy thread is run by me and it is for live now. Once 3.1 goes live, I will be asking a mod to close it since quite a bit is changing in 3.2. There has been very little to no theorycrafting in the other thread. The reason why there is no Frost DW Thread is because there was never a real need for one since the original Dual Wield Thread was like this, it was for all Dual Wield specs.
The problem with having one thread for DW Frost and DW Unholy is that it presumes people care about the DW part, not the major tree selection. DW Frost is functionally different the DW Unholy, in terms of buffs and play style. Combining very different specs into 1 thread because they share a superficial similarity in that they both use 2 weapons doesnt make a lot of sense to me.
If DW Unholy is substantially different enough from 2h unholy to warrant being in a seperate thread, then it definately warrants being in a seperate thread from frost DW. The fact of the matter is that unless someone is actively using both specs, such a combined DW unholy/DW frost would contain an extraordinary amount of useless information to them. The cross polination between them is almost nil.
For an example of what I mean, look at the comments regarding BCB contribution toward DPS. For a Frost DW spec that number is going to be different then an unholy DW spec, yet we find posts arguing about what the correct % boost is because they are arguing from completely different frames of reference.
Using the simulators which is the only viable testing possible right now with all the bugs on the PTR, 2H Unholy is definitely more viable and higher DPS than DW Unholy and has been sited in this thread and others.
Can you point out one of these tests Travaggie? I think you may be confused, 0/17/54 and "2h unholy" can't be compared directly, they are completely different builds.
0/17/54 is a competitive build as 0f 3.1.3, and is receiving nothing but buffs in 3.2. One such buff is massive, the new UB is going to easily be 400-500 single target dps for this build. This build is most likely why UB was reduced to 20% from 30% on the PTR, because this build would have been a monster with 30% extra DC damage.
Assuming you understand that 0/17/54 isn't a standard unholy build, and want to continue to claim that it is strictly inferior, please provide some evidence. Until then, please know that my previous comments regarding the direction of this thread still stand.
@Odii
There may come a time when it is appropriate to split into two threads, but now is clearly not that time. There is no proof yet that deep frost builds will be the dominant DW specs going forward.
The problem here is, this thread has two groups coming together. Some of us are here because we love the DW playstyle, and some of us are here because we love the current Frost playstyle, which is being changed into a DW model. For the time being, we are simply going to have to learn to live together.
There may come a time when it is appropriate to split into two threads, but now is clearly not that time. There is no proof yet that deep frost builds will be the dominant DW specs going forward.
The problem here is, this thread has two groups coming together. Some of us are here because we love the DW playstyle, and some of us are here because we love the current Frost playstyle, which is being changed into a DW model. For the time being, we are simply going to have to learn to live together.
Except that they are two totally different models. The old frost DW specs shared much in common with the old unholy DW specs, as both were abut maximizing non-strike based damage, So its natural that people tended to lump the two together. The new frost DW is an entirely different animal. Its focused on large strike based damage.
So instead of all DW specs being 15-20 points apart, they are now more like 30-40. apart. Instead of being able to talk about how to accomplish the same thing, find alternatives to strike based damage, they are built on very different DPS mechanics.
When it comes to mechanics, Frost and Unholy DW now are just two completely, unrelated conversations.
I included how the damage is broken down so those who are asking questions about abilities like BCB can see what percentage it could be. Note the simulator hasn't been updated so Blood Strike will be lower damage and BCB will be higher damage when it's all said and done. Obviously this will go up when better one-handed weapons are acquired as the build gains a lot from weapon DPS.
Edit: I also wanted to point out that the simulator doesn't give the 3% increase in strength so the DPS should be higher as a result.
Last edited by Orlgin : 07/21/09 at 10:52 PM.
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Except that they are two totally different models. The old frost DW specs shared much in common with the old unholy DW specs, as both were abut maximizing non-strike based damage, So its natural that people tended to lump the two together. The new frost DW is an entirely different animal. Its focused on large strike based damage.
So instead of all DW specs being 15-20 points apart, they are now more like 30-40. apart. Instead of being able to talk about how to accomplish the same thing, find alternatives to strike based damage, they are built on very different DPS mechanics.
When it comes to mechanics, Frost and Unholy DW now are just two completely, unrelated conversations.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but since neither model has proven itself to be the top contender, this thread is the correct place to hash out the testing. It would be ridiculous to have two separate threads to come up with the best 3.2 DW build, for now its just going to take some effort on the part of posters to clarify which base spec they are referring to.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but since neither model has proven itself to be the top contender, this thread is the correct place to hash out the testing. It would be ridiculous to have two separate threads to come up with the best 3.2 DW build, for now its just going to take some effort on the part of posters to clarify which base spec they are referring to.
Ok, Im actually not arguing about this thread in particular. Im focussing more on the notion that when 3.2 actually hits live, their should only be 1 DW thread. If both specs are viable, both should be discussed seperately.
Can you point out one of these tests Travaggie? I think you may be confused, 0/17/54 and "2h unholy" can't be compared directly, they are completely different builds.
0/17/54 is a competitive build as 0f 3.1.3, and is receiving nothing but buffs in 3.2. One such buff is massive, the new UB is going to easily be 400-500 single target dps for this build. This build is most likely why UB was reduced to 20% from 30% on the PTR, because this build would have been a monster with 30% extra DC damage.
Assuming you understand that 0/17/54 isn't a standard unholy build, and want to continue to claim that it is strictly inferior, please provide some evidence. Until then, please know that my previous comments regarding the direction of this thread still stand.
Yes I understand that the DW Unholy build and the 2H Unholy build are different, the comparison is between overall DPS between whatever unholy build you take with those buffs/debuffs for raid purposes. And everything I've seen posted as far as results go show 2H Unholy far ahead in sims.
It's also a completely seperate issue from the point of my post, being that DW Frost should not be compared to DW Unholy.
Using my own stats i ran sims on all the major frost/unholy builds. Weapons are 178.8 and 148.6 2.6 speed weapons, Awareness and FC/FC. Glyphs; Frost Strike, Icy Touch and Obliterate. Latency 250 over 24 hour. 2p t8 and 2p t7.
These are the stats i used:
<Strength>1313
<Agility>528
<Intel>43
<Armor>13279
<AttackPower>3501
<HitRating>295
<CritRating>777
<HasteRating>239
<ArmorPenetrationRating>71
<ExpertiseRating>186
That would be fine but he forgot attack power and that is a rather important variable. What would you suggest?
Its the last stat in the list, but the problem is if you are using Kahorie's its not fully up to date.
Further making the comparison problematic is that the set is rather random. To properly compare the two specs youd need to generate EP values, then use those to assemble a BiS set, and use that best in slot set.
Oh, and no latency was specified in the DW unholy post.
After the stat changes and running 10 tests each these are the numbers i come with. Still shows about the same results as the last except that the 3rd and 4rth have swapped places. 2/51/18 still comes out on top.
@Odii I know, the BCB changes are not up to date for this sim, you got a better one? Even if they arnt up to date it only makes a minuet difference on these builds. However these tests still provide evidence on what talents are putting out the most and helps narrow down what builds deserve the most in depth testing.
@Odii I know, the BCB changes are not up to date for this sim, you got a better one? Even if they arnt up to date it only makes a minuet difference on these builds. However these tests still provide evidence on what talents are putting out the most and helps narrow down what builds deserve the most in depth testing.
I'm more worried about things like whether the reduction from 30% to 20% for UB is included, if KM is causing 100% crit on the off hand. And in particular cross spec comparisons, like between Unholy and Frost.
So I used the Simulator to figure out some EP values. I used my current stats, the 15/53/3 build I plan on going, and the priority/rotation system I'd plan on using, and this is what I came up with.
Again, this is my current gear set, and I haven't had much desire to play my DK since the DW nerf, so her gear is still about Naxx 25 level.
There's something in it that just glares at me, and I can't believe, for a second, that it's correct.
******************EP CALCULATOR************************
EP :AttackPower = 100
EP :Strength = 220
EP :Agility = 100
EP :CritRating = 148
EP :HasteRating = 113
EP :ArmorPenetrationRating = 162
EP :ExpertiseRating = 231 EP :HitRating = 575
EP :SpellHitRating = -142
EP :WeaponDPS = 655
EP :WeaponSpeed = 27586
EP :2T7 = 179
EP :4T7 = 0
EP :2T8 = 227
EP :4T8 = 277
Ran the whole thing and this is what i came up with for 2/51/18
EP :AttackPower = 100
EP :Strength = 254
EP :Agility = 109
EP :CritRating = 130
EP :HasteRating = 105
EP :ArmorPenetrationRating = 181
EP :ExpertiseRating = 363
EP :HitRating = 1149
EP :SpellHitRating = -379
EP :WeaponDPS = 927
EP :WeaponSpeed = 34545
Ran the whole thing and this is what i came up with for 2/51/18
EP :AttackPower = 100
EP :Strength = 254
EP :Agility = 109
EP :CritRating = 130
EP :HasteRating = 105
EP :ArmorPenetrationRating = 181
EP :ExpertiseRating = 363
EP :HitRating = 1149
EP :SpellHitRating = -379
EP :WeaponDPS = 927
EP :WeaponSpeed = 34545
There is most likely something wrong the EPAP on the Simulator because of Hit Rating being so high and Spell Hit being a negative. Also how were you getting such low DPS result for those builds? Were you copying stats correctly? I didn't place them in the order that the simulator lists them in. Do you have it set to DW in the Sim via the <count>#</count> section under weapon in character? Also the part for AP shoulder be your bonus AP, e.g. Currently on your character sheet in WoW, it should say Power: 3319 and when you scroll over it, it says "Melee Attack Power 3319 (2850 + 469)" You use that 469 part on the sim.
Well you have to remember that the nature of dual wielding means that the white damage hit cap will skyrocket to 27% on a standard boss. In addition, white damage should increase in terms of overall dps contribution. (The combined DPS of two one-handers is always higher than a two-hander of equal level.)
I have a feeling that hit rating will have a very high initial value, even after the soft cap, but will ratchet down very quickly as you stack more of it.
---
One thing I would like to know is what sims say about main hand weapon speed vs. offhand weapon speed.
The fact they they only list one generic 'weapon speed' does make me wonder if they were properly configured.
So I used the Simulator to figure out some EP values. I used my current stats, the 15/53/3 build I plan on going, and the priority/rotation system I'd plan on using, and this is what I came up with.
Again, this is my current gear set, and I haven't had much desire to play my DK since the DW nerf, so her gear is still about Naxx 25 level.
There's something in it that just glares at me, and I can't believe, for a second, that it's correct.
******************EP CALCULATOR************************
EP :AttackPower = 100
EP :Strength = 220
EP :Agility = 100
EP :CritRating = 148
EP :HasteRating = 113
EP :ArmorPenetrationRating = 162
EP :ExpertiseRating = 231 EP :HitRating = 575
EP :SpellHitRating = -142
EP :WeaponDPS = 655
EP :WeaponSpeed = 27586
EP :2T7 = 179
EP :4T7 = 0
EP :2T8 = 227
EP :4T8 = 277
That...just doesn't look right...
Could be that that's hit rating before the special cap. At that point hitrating increases all your dps by a ton, not to mention removes some side effects (GCD issues due to missing).
Well you have to remember that the nature of dual wielding means that the white damage hit cap will skyrocket to 27% on a standard boss. In addition, white damage should increase in terms of overall dps contribution. (The combined DPS of two one-handers is always higher than a two-hander of equal level.)
I have a feeling that hit rating will have a very high initial value, but will ratchet down very quickly as you stack more of it.
---
One thing I would like to know is what sims say about main hand weapon speed vs. offhand weapon speed.
Well dual wield miss rating has little to do with its value I think. You still want the special hit cap, but i don't think to a greater degree than a 2H build.
After that hitrating takes a large dip for both DW and 2H.
With the old frost DW build you wanted to go for the spellhit cap and then stop stacking hit. Because getting in more white hits simply doesn't benefit us as much as say getting more strength. Unlike rogues that have poison applications on hit, and certain other on hit procs (Sword spec / Energy return talent).
Other than that with a more strike heavy build, reaching the spellhit cap is less interresting, i doubt much changed in that regard.
---------
As for the whole discussion on Unholy DW in this thread.
I'm personally ok with having some discussion on it too.
HOWEVER:
Please dont compare abilities between builds. This whole argument came up after someone posted a WWS with the unholy DW style.
I agree with whoever said that he can post the data here. However that particular case he was argumenting that BCB for frost should be good because it was good in his unholy DW build.
Those are bad redenations, that don't get us anywhere.
And just as important.
Please state when you're talking about unholy dual wield. This topic at the moment is very much focused on the new frost DW builds. I see several people in these last 2 pages post opinions / arguments / WWS / Simulator tests that regard to unholy without stating so. This just creates confusion.
Lets keep this topic clear, confusion will just leads to frustration.
Could be that that's hit rating before the special cap. At that point hitrating increases all your dps by a ton, not to mention removes some side effects (GCD issues due to missing).
Well I absolutely understand that...I just wish it gave a more "global" value in terms of taking the hit cap into consideration...obviously that's quite difficult, but eh...it'd be nice!
Also, the Hit Rating on my live gear is 406, which is above the specials hit cap, if I'm not mistaken.
There is most likely something wrong the EPAP on the Simulator because of Hit Rating being so high and Spell Hit being a negative. Also how were you getting such low DPS result for those builds? Were you copying stats correctly? I didn't place them in the order that the simulator lists them in. Do you have it set to DW in the Sim via the <count>#</count> section under weapon in character? Also the part for AP shoulder be your bonus AP, e.g. Currently on your character sheet in WoW, it should say Power: 3319 and when you scroll over it, it says "Melee Attack Power 3319 (2850 + 469)" You use that 469 part on the sim.
You're right, i did forget to put the count back when i reset everything, aside from that everything else is correct. Ill run the EP again. It shouldn't effect the overall ratios of each build just the total damage output, right?
Edit, Yeah seams to be. All the builds are still doing the same amount according to each other only more.
2/51/18 now averages 6791 when i run the sim.
Last edited by phantazum : 07/22/09 at 3:48 AM.
Reason: fixed an error
@Octopi: I'm using simulations, updated for the new BCB mechanics (non-normalised), as far as I can see the code is all correct (I replaced the function call that referred to normalised MH/OH damage with a call to the function for non-normalised, the one used for autoattacks - note that other multipliers, such as the one for diseases, are still being applied)
Some things I noted from a quick look at your parse: You're showing 31.3% autoattack damage (mine is closer to 20%, so yours is about 50% higher), and you also have Crypt Fever (an additional disease, 50% more BCB damage) That would account for about double (should even be slightly more) the BCB damage. Basically - our tests show (more or less) consistent results when all factors are taken into account.
Ah I see where the lower number are coming from on the sims. Thanks for pointing that out, I was confused, but BcB is going to be weaker without CF, but I would have thought that normalization would improve BcB for DW Frost which uses SLow/Slow , those numbers from the Live parse are from Slow/Fast. Which , if you are min maxing BcB as it stands now, benefit from that fast OH. You can see the percentages are very close between the two, but I cannot tell which of the two sets of BcB data comes from the MH or vice versa.
Based on sim data, do you feel it is wrong to think that?
Originally Posted by Travaggie
All I said about DW unholy is that is is inferior in pure DPS to 2H Unholy, which is true. My point is that it makes no sense to compare Frost DW to Unholy DW in the first place for practical raiding purposes if the end goal is to find the most OPTIMAL and VIABLE build, considering they bring different buffs. There is no Frost DW thread and there is a DW Unholy thread, so naturally people will and are using this thread to speculate the DW Frost builds and to assume people are always comparing or even taking into consideration the Unholy suboptimal counterpart is just dumb. So as I said, if you're only goal is to DW regardless of viability or optimal raid DPS, then continue to debate this argument.
Edit: To clarify, I don't see an issue in discussing the two builds seperately, although I personally don't see the reason behind DW Unholy to begin with. The post I was responding to was COMPARING as well as assuming that people would know he was referring to Unholy DW without siting it, which there just is no way to compare the two logically, based on what I wrote above.
I am comfortable in guessing that I am pretty sure without the work of the DW DK playerbase(Which is predominantly Unholy by and large), you would not even have ToT as it is now. Blizzard didn't just sit around and think it up. Some players kept pushing the playstyle in whatever way they could in order to have it function and operate in a raid in such a way as to contribute like any other spec.
If you want to sit around and discuss the merits of each spec based on the buff it brings then you might as well start your own thread and devote some dedicated thought to it. Its pretty clear that sims are only going to go so far in teaching people how these specs will play out under raid conditions.
All of your posts in this particular thread reek of the WoW official forums and the kind of attitude that makes that place a horrible visit. Being respectful and accurate whenever possible is always nice, and your statements on current DW Unholy are neither.
Originally Posted by phantazum
Your parse is flawed. You were not using a heavy frost build and white melee makes up 30% of your damage. Obviously BCB is going to be a higher percentage of your damage if you are using a build that favors white melee hits. You arnt even using heavy hitting attacks like Obliterate that would suck up more of the percentage of damage for that fight.
Show me a parse of any of ?/51/? with a heavy obliterate rotation and get BCB that high and then you will have something. For me BCB always has a lower percentage of damage than necrosis and necrosis normally comes in at 4.1-3%.
Edit: He was posting his heavy unholy BCB damage in response to discussion about frost BCB damage. These are conflicting ideas. His post proves nothing about how well BCB preforms for a heavy frost build.
Well first off, you cannot create a flawed parse, at least that I am aware of.
Second, I would like to know myself how much difference in BcB damage Crypt Fever(CF) provides, the presence of CF chops BcB total damage in half? Thats what some of the numbers being thrown around here suggest and I have a hard time believing it. You appear convinced, so perhaps you can shed some light on that for me, how much additional damage does CF provide BcB?
Why does DW UNholy 0/17/54 "Favor White hits" more than any other builds, you are being obtuse here. I can understand that Unholy presence will provide a flat 15% speed increase in your strikes, but other than that there is no glaring difference between the two.
How does using Obliterate take away or with the lack of it or other double rune abilities, add more contribution to my White damage? This is something I am confused about with your post, white damage to me should not change as it is done automatically at a set speed, wether you are using abilities or not. Why does using something like Obliterate change this? Sure Obliterate will be a portion of overall damage, but why does it cause my white damage to go down in a Frost build? Please let me understand this reasoning in a more clear way.
That still seems somewhat low. I noticed you put HS instead of BS in your rotation. Does that hold true in the sim, because if so, that would cut out BS damage and 1 OB per 20 seconds ,which could be some problem. It still seems low though. Could you possibly show us your Character Sheet that you use?
07/21/09, 9:38 PM
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