concept84

While I agree this needs to be tested again, and admittedly would rather use Death Coil, we have to remember back in the old DW days Frost Strike beat out Death Coil by a very large margin, and I just don't feel a 30% DoT can make up for that, especially with the increased runic power generation from OB with CoTG and Dirge, plus the FS Glyph lowering its cost.

Also remember that Frost Strike hit harder than Death Coil before when Death Coil was fully buffed by Impurity at 25% and Frost Strike was hitting based solely off the Main Hand Weapon's damage.

So my post was not really a "guess" at all, merely an observation from the recent pass, and unless I'm missing something very large here, I believe this to be the case come 3.2.

 

Kyruski

I thought that was currently implemented, the 25% per disease part. Also if I was having trouble keeping a rotation that's OB>OB>BS>BS>Dump, IT will still be somewhat hard, though haste will help. Like I said, it's up to you for interpretation.

 

AtheistGod

My testing goes against that. My two hits when using a a 1.1 DPS mainhand with Broken Promise offhand are less than 25% different.

 

Aezoc

The tooltip still reads 50% per disease. Messing around with the dummy also seems to indicate that it's doing basically double damage with diseases up.

 

Melchior

Edit - testing more.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Junon.png

 

Fargom

The main factors I was taking into account are that the glyph of dark death didn't exist back then, and the 30% dot is a huge new mechanic. Either way, we both agree this needs testing, I'll put in some time on it when I get home from work. My guess is that FS will turn out to be superior for any build deep enough to grab it, but in an effort to play by my own rules in this thread I want to test it.

 

Aatis

I'm on the PTR right now testing the effects of razorice/lichbane on mainhand/offhand weapons but the results are extremely peculiar, to the point that it doesn't appear to matter which weapon you apply razorice to at all.

I'm running razorice on [Serilas, Blood Blade of Invar One-Arm] and Lichbane on [Void Sabre].

With Serilas in my mainhand, both lichbane and Razorice are showing proc damage from 7-14, averaging 10, during this time I had popped my wrathstone and had greatness procced, and the max proc damage never went outside this area, while my maximum white HIT on the dummy was 2008 (2% = 40 damage), crit of 3646 (2% = 73 damage)

When I switch Void Sabre to my mainhand, both runeforges are dealing 4-8 damage, averaging 6 per swing.

Equipped a [Cutlass] in my mainhand, razorice on Void Sabre in my offhand and the damage from razorice was 1 per swing.

The 2% damage done by both of these runeforges is based entirely off the base weapon damage of your mainhand weapon, regardless of which weapon is enchanted, attack power is currently completely ignored for the calculation.

 

Kyruski

EDIT: Math all messed up for now, disregard until later.

 

• Darkside

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't IT produce Base+Glyph+CotG = 10+10+5 = 25 RP?

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

AtheistGod

You are saying .9375 of 2 FS > 2 BS. not that .9375 of 1 FS > 2 BS.

Darkside: The comparison is 2 IT vs 2 BS. It's 50 RP vs 20 RP so that's where the 30/32 of a FS comes from.

 

Kyruski

Alright, let's try this again, I think i fixed all the problems.

Well if you want to compare BS vs. IT with Death runes, An IT with the Glyph and CotG produces 25RP. 2 BS Produces 20RP while 2 IT Produces 50RP. So 2 IT produces 30RP more than 2 BS. That's .78125 FS's per 2 IT. With calculations from before:
3431.65*.9375 = 3217.171875 FS damage for the combined RP Gen from 2 ITs
(2428.18*2)-3217.171875 = 1639.188125

So for IT to be a better Dump than BS, you have to have 2 IT > 1639.188125. That comes out to 819.5940625 each IT must do. I did 100 ITs on the Test dummy again, same exact conditions. Here are the Results:

IT Crit: Avg = 2367, % = 22%
IT Non-Crit: Avg = 1182, % = 78%
IT Expected Avg Damage = (1182*.78)+(2367*.22) = 1442.7

So IT+FS should be more than BS. The problem is you also have to find the time to fit the GCDs in while in BP. Hopefully my math is all correct this time.

 

Sakuratei

Not to mention that all comparisons in the past were based on striking only with the mainhand. For 2H frost currently, those Death runes are used for an extra Obliterate, will Threat of Thassarian make Obliterate a viable use for them even for DW?

 

Melchior

Nah it's definitely hitting with the OH, I screwed up my own testing that time.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Junon.png

 

• Darkside

Like 2h frost, this is a strong indicator that it may be a better idea to be in Unholy Presence than Blood Presence. As I've demonstrated in the Frost thread (Frozen Blows -- Frost DPS (Updated 06.11.09)) UP beats out BP assuming that you have less than 23% downtime in your cycles. Assuming that DW will use the same rotations as 2h Frost does (without 6xIT) this should hardly be an issue, especially if any of the fights involve any measurable amount of downtime/movement.

Finally, as an added bonus, UP provides greater frequency of KM procs.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

PristineChaos

We could always OB on F/U runes while Blood Plague is up and 2xIT on the Death Runes and let Blood Plague fall off and dump FS while Frost Fever is up since FS does not really gain anything from Blood Plague. Once RP is depleted we could IT>PS> and resume Obliterating.

Question is, assuming 15% extra damage and crits on Blood Plague would it be a loss of dps to let it fall off during the FS dump.

 

• Darkside

Almost certainly. Unless it's going to put you over the RP cap, there is no reason whatsoever to delay your reapplication of diseases. You can always dump the RP at a later time.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

Fargom

Good point, also UP provides the movement speed buff, which we would otherwise have to get via boots.

Considering the evidence in the 2h frost thread, I'm going to suggest that we attempt to use UP if possible, the extra KM procs and movement speed are enough to make UP the presence of choice. At this point, it would have to be a fairly strong argument for BP to be considered.

 

concept84

I think UP vs BP will largely depend on our rotations; whether we can fill the extra GCDs or not. With a standard OB spam rotation I find it really hard to believe UP will outweigh BP, however if it once again comes down to maximizing runic power for Frost Strikes then surely UP will take the cake.

 

Aezoc

I guess I'm confused why this is an open question - diseases will tick for 15% more now, and BS disease scaling is improved. Because of this, the single disease BP rotation is clearly worse than double diseases (they were roughly equal prior to this), and double disease frost rotations have always been in UP. Nothing in 3.2 looks to change frost RP generation, so I don't see any reason to even consider double disease BP being feasible.

 

concept84

I agree that single disease rotations will fail. That is not what I was referring to.

I guess my mind reverts back to the 0/32/39 days where a 14-GCD (possible due to haste and lots of spells) rotation was pulled off in BP, rather than focusing on current 2h frost spec rotations.

I just don't see how a rotation like:

PS-IT-OB-BS-BS-Dump
OB-OB-OB-Dump

would be better run in Unholy Presence for the DW builds we've being seeing pop up.

Lets assume glyphs are FS/OB/IT (just for max RP), and the Dirge was taken. This rotation generates 160 RP, which is exactly enough for 5 Frost Strikes. That's only 13 GCDs, which is easily possible in Blood Presence. The downside would be no room for Rime procs, but if in fact a build like 0/44/27 surfaces to the top HB won't even be part of it.

If our top DW spec only slightly deviates from the top current 2h Frost spec then I do agree with you, the same UP rotations should be best, however so much is changing in 3.2 across the board, I think we need to think further out of the box and keep all options open.

 

Travaggie

Double disease 2H frost rotations were NEVER in UP, they've always been in blood presence. The double disease rotation is basically IT>PS>OB>BS>BS :: OB>OB>OB weaving frost strikes or some small variation thereof. Nothing is changing the RP generation if you do stick with the machine gun IT spam spec, however the fact that disease damage has been increased, will crit with 4pcT9, and the nerf to FS damage makes it so that building an entire rotation around generating more FS's pretty insignificant.

From my testing so far, I've done hours of 5 minute tests using the IT machine gun spec in UP, and the traditional BP rotation of IT>PS>OB>BS>BS :: OB>OB>OB weaving FS's where the latter came out ahead by 200-300 DPS every single time. My thoughts are that double diseases will be practically mandatory with the recent changes, but that will also mean BP will be king again.

 

Aezoc

You guys aren't using the proper rotation for frost. The correct double disease rotation (currently) is
PS->IT->Ob->BS->BS->Dump
Ob->IT->PS->IT->IT->Dump

You can't do that in BP. Now, FS has obviously taken a hit, so if someone wants to post math supporting the claim that Ob is a better dump now, which would shorten the rotation and allow it to be used in BP, then by all means. But speculation without math to back it up isn't helpful.

 

Syrellia

Rotation for short diseases (No epidemic):

IT > PS > BS > BS > OB > FS > FS (75 - 64 = 11 RP) (7)
OB > IT > IT > IT > PS > FS > FS > FS (106 - 96 = 10 RP) (8)
OB > OB > BS > BS > FS > FS (70 - 64 = 6 RP) (6)
IT > PS > OB > IT > IT > FS > FS > FS (111 - 96 = 15 RP) (8)
OB > BS > BS > IT > PS > FS > FS (90 - 64 = 26 RP) (7)
OB > OB > IT > IT > FS > FS > FS (116 - 96 = 20 RP) (7)
IT > PS > BS > BS > OB > FS > FS (95 - 64 = 31 RP) (7)
OB > IT > IT > IT > PS > FS > FS > FS (126 - 96 = 30 RP) (8)
...

The goal is to use PS whenever it nearly falls off for the best Blood Plague DoT
The priority (complicated) goes as follow:

Diseases (BP FF)
ITx2 for a pair of Death Runes
BS
OB for pair of Unholy + Frost runes
FS
ITx1 for single Frost Rune after Unholy Rune used to keep diseases up

(Note: This kind of complicated priority cannot be represented in Sims, but you should be able to input the rotation explained above)

Assuming that IT x 2 + FS > OB + Rime > IT + PS for any pair of runes (Death Runes, Frost & Unholy pair), this is the rotation for short diseases. It's quite messy but you get approximately 14 - 15 GCD per pair of 2, sometimes 16 if you have extra RP or Rime procs. This kind of rotation is impossible to be executed in Blood Presence where GCD is limited to 13 for 2 pairs (easier to reach 14 GCD per pair due to haste & spell-base, but if you use Frost Strikes haste will only affect Icy Touch, making it very hard unless you have a lot of haste. This amount of haste is yet to be determined).

If you use BS x 2 instead of IT x 2 for Death Runes, the rotation will lean toward 14 GCD per pair instead of 15 because of loss in RP generated. However, it's more difficult to use haste to reach 14 GCD in Blood Presence since there are much less spells used.

You can calculate the rotation of long-diseases as well as using Obliterate for Death Runes to determine if they are usable in Blood Presence. If you can execute the rotation in Blood Presence - it's definitely the way to go. If you cannot, then either change rotation into something like priority based (loss of runes cooldown time), lean toward using 2-runes abilities (Obliterate) or simply use Unholy Presence (If there are way many GCD to use per rune cooldown cycle - Gain in ability to use more GCD, loss in damages per GCD used AND diseases damages of 15%). More maths incoming for those kind of comparison once we get the basics down, and they can also be compared via established spreadsheets and simulations easily.

One downside of using ITx2 + FS on Death Runes: FF will be refreshed too often, so the FF damages may decrease. How the DoTs work is like they have to wait for a full second to tick off. If the DoT is refreshed half a second or 0.9s after the previous tick, then it's 0.9s loss of DoTs. It wasn't an issue at 3.1.3 because the Diseases damages are low, but surely it will hurt our dps a bit now as our diseases damages are buffed.

 

Travaggie

You're basically just overcomplicating the rotation IT>PS>OB>BS>BS :: OB>IT>PS>OB weaving FS's, which comes out to ~14 GCD's before rime procs if used.

 

Travaggie

This rotation isn't an optimal dual disease rotation. It's just barely too long for BP and too short for UP at 15-16 GCD's. You can run PS>IT>OB>BS>BS :: OB>IT>PS>OB (weave FS dumps) in BP, essentially trading 2xIT and .625 FS's for 1 OB. This seems to favor using the 2xIT + .625 FS's, except that that will extend your rotation out too far, giving you like 4-5 spare GCD's where you just sit there in UP, and you gain 15% damage which is in itself better than 15% haste. I'm not purposefully not backing this up with math, its just been rehashed dozens of times in other forums.