That still seems somewhat low. I noticed you put HS instead of BS in your rotation. Does that hold true in the sim, because if so, that would cut out BS damage and 1 OB per 20 seconds ,which could be some problem. It still seems low though. Could you possibly show us your Character Sheet that you use?
Sorry, just a habit of playing blood for so long. Its blood strike in the simulator.
Ah I see where the lower number are coming from on the sims. Thanks for pointing that out, I was confused, but BcB is going to be weaker without CF, but I would have thought that normalization would improve BcB for DW Frost which uses SLow/Slow , those numbers from the Live parse are from Slow/Fast. Which , if you are min maxing BcB as it stands now, benefit from that fast OH. You can see the percentages are very close between the two, but I cannot tell which of the two sets of BcB data comes from the MH or vice versa.
Based on sim data, do you feel it is wrong to think that?
Second, I would like to know myself how much difference in BcB damage Crypt Fever(CF) provides, the presence of CF chops BcB total damage in half? Thats what some of the numbers being thrown around here suggest and I have a hard time believing it. You appear convinced, so perhaps you can shed some light on that for me, how much additional damage does CF provide BcB?
Why does DW UNholy 0/17/54 "Favor White hits" more than any other builds, you are being obtuse here. I can understand that Unholy presence will provide a flat 15% speed increase in your strikes, but other than that there is no glaring difference between the two.
How does using Obliterate take away or with the lack of it or other double rune abilities, add more contribution to my White damage? This is something I am confused about with your post, white damage to me should not change as it is done automatically at a set speed, wether you are using abilities or not. Why does using something like Obliterate change this? Sure Obliterate will be a portion of overall damage, but why does it cause my white damage to go down in a Frost build? Please let me understand this reasoning in a more clear way.
You are forgetting an important thing about BCB.
Currently its normalized. It heavily favors fast weapons. Which Unholy currently uses.
BCB isn't getting massively buffed for slow weapons in 3.2 (small buff at most), it is getting nerfed for fast weapons.
I'm pretty sure that in a 3.2 parse unholy DW would only be getting 3% or so damage from BCB as well.
Add the fact you also have a 3th disease and BCB should be higher for Unholy DW on Live than it will be for Frost DW on the PTR.
Your parse is from live and due to normalization on live, BCB is not a representation/percentage of your white DPS. Whereas on PTR it will be.
I included how the damage is broken down so those who are asking questions about abilities like BCB can see what percentage it could be. Note the simulator hasn't been updated so Blood Strike will be lower damage and BCB will be higher damage when it's all said and done. Obviously this will go up when better one-handed weapons are acquired as the build gains a lot from weapon DPS.
Edit: I also wanted to point out that the simulator doesn't give the 3% increase in strength so the DPS should be higher as a result.
I am getting the highest DPS with this build, and I think I might know one of the key reasons for this. The Buff to Diseases. With Crypt Fever's 30% to diseases and the buff, it really pushes up the damage. Look at the average of each: ~1300 each tick which accounts for 5% per disease, plus another 4% for WP. That's 14% from diseases. The UB change also helps this build quite well. The Perma-Ghoul is always nice also.
I tried 2/51/15+3 builds, 0/17/54, 15/51/0+5 builds, and this seems to come out on top. The 4pT9 will also help this build out quite (disease wise) with the chance to crit. The OBs are hitting somewhat hard also.
I am getting the highest DPS with this build, and I think I might know one of the key reasons for this. The Buff to Diseases. With Crypt Fever's 30% to diseases and the buff, it really pushes up the damage. Look at the average of each: ~1300 each tick which accounts for 5% per disease, plus another 4% for WP. That's 14% from diseases. The UB change also helps this build quite well. The Perma-Ghoul is always nice also.
I tried 2/51/15+3 builds, 0/17/54, 15/51/0+5 builds, and this seems to come out on top. The 4pT9 will also help this build out quite (disease wise) with the chance to crit. The OBs are hitting somewhat hard also.
Priority for 0/18/53 is just Unholy edited to have Obliterate instead of Scourge Strike.
EP Stat DryRun
DPS 7627
Total Damage 15102036723 in 550 h
Threat Per Second 5106
EP Stat AttackPower
DPS 7697
Total Damage 15240553387 in 550 h
Threat Per Second 5158
EP :AttackPower = 100
EP :Strength = 294
EP :Agility = 108
EP :CritRating = 131
EP :HasteRating = 157
EP :ArmorPenetrationRating = 174
The simulator bugged again when it hit the Expertise which made every stat afterward broken. But these should be accurate. It seems like values above the spell hit cap for Hit or Expertise cap really break the simulator when it tries to produce an EP result for them. He explained that it reduces the amount of misses which makes me think that the simulator is inputting negative numbers instead of stopping at 0 misses.
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Martin Luther King Jr.
Priority for 0/18/53 is just Unholy edited to have Obliterate instead of Scourge Strike.
EP Stat DryRun
DPS 7627
Total Damage 15102036723 in 550 h
Threat Per Second 5106
EP Stat AttackPower
DPS 7697
Total Damage 15240553387 in 550 h
Threat Per Second 5158
EP :AttackPower = 100
EP :Strength = 294
EP :Agility = 108
EP :CritRating = 131
EP :HasteRating = 157
EP :ArmorPenetrationRating = 174
The simulator bugged again when it hit the Expertise which made every stat afterward broken. But these should be accurate. It seems like values above the spell hit cap for Hit or Expertise cap really break the simulator when it tries to produce an EP result for them. He explained that it reduces the amount of misses which makes me think that the simulator is inputting negative numbers instead of stopping at 0 misses.
What latency are you using?
Closest thing i could find to priority would be this.
Alright, let's see what information I can cover regarding some variants of 3/51/17 (spec details below, see links by the simulation data) :P
First off, some simulations with the following specifications: 200ms, BP, FC/RI, Sigil of Awareness, Prio (FF>BP>OB>BS>FS>Rime) and these stats:
Strength
1519
Agility
543
Intel
46
Armor
12046
AP
1143
Hit
189
Crit
695
Haste
146
ARP
330
Exp
180
WeaponDPS
178.9
WeaponSpeed
2.7
(Changing gear around a bit to get hitcap I lost ~40ish DPS, which I suppose would be acceptable to simplify rotations, possibly even a requirement for using the Disease Glyph)
EP values used to arrive at the above (BiS or close to BiS, my research wasn't extremely thorough - best gear from 3.1, + gems (including JC/BS) from 3.2) stats:
Note that the simulator still uses IT/PS to refresh once every 3 minutes or so, leading to slightly decreased DPS - hopefully I will be able to fix this, but no guarantees.
Stats used for this simulation were slightly different (no EP values calculated yet, but these stats gave a better result with the Disease Glyph, basically confirming that hit will be morth more):
Strength
1602
Agility
466
Intel
46
Armor
13149
AP
1037
Hit
261
Crit
659
Haste
193
ARP
281
Exp
166
WeaponDPS
178.9
WeaponSpeed
2.7
Some variations of these specs could be swapping 1p BCB for UA (the simulator doesn't really put it to proper use, but it could very well be a boost to DPS with intelligent usage). If you do not have access to any slow effect (Infected Wounds or FFB) to activate Glyph of BS, but still need to provide IIT (or for whatever reason you do not want to use Glyph of Disease) the second best option seems to be Glyph of PS (Glyph of IT may be better with lower latencies however)
Glyph of Disease Theory Note: Math done before I had any way to give the glyph a fair representation through simulations, see above for recent simulation data.
Assuming you do not have to provide IIT for your raid, it seems as though Glyph of Disease will be able to provide a decent amount of DPS compared to using Glyph of BS. Assuming 200ms delay, the original rotation (refreshing diseases using IT/PS) would look like this:
IT-PS-OB-BS-BS-RP RP-OB-OB-RP-OB-RP
Meaning we would have 4 "open" GCDs for dumping RP and using Rime procs every 20.4s (12 GCDs * 1.7s). On average, 3.92 would be used for FS, and 0.08 for Rime procs.
The Glyph of Disease rotation would instead look like (after diseases are put up):
OB-OB-BS-Pest-RP-RP
OB-OB-RP-OB-RP-RP
Giving us 5 "open" GCDs, resulting in the same number of FSs, but one more HB (On average, one 20.4s rotation would produce 1.23 Rime procs - 0.48 from each of the two pairs of OB, and 0.27 from the single OB). In addition, refreshing diseases with Pestilence will not "clip" them, meaning you would gain 2.4s worth of disease damage every 20.4s compared to the above rotation.
The difference between the two rotations will then be:
1 IT, 1 PS, 1.4 BS (1 actual BS extra, + the glyph)
vs.
1 OB, 1 HB, 80% (2.4/3) of one FF/BP tick
Which comes out at about 330 DPS in favor of the Disease Glyph (This would put it at 7378 DPS).
Important note: Due to the way Glyph of Disease refreshes diseases, you want to cast refresh FF using IT at least once in order to get the TS benefit on it, and possibly waiting for procs to maximise the damage of both your diseases.
Rime and KM Procs
If possible, a Rime proc should always be used with KM (not only does a KM HB hit for more than a KM FS, it has a lower crit chance to start with). If KM is not up by the last GCD of your current RP dump sequence (see rotation listed above), but you still have Rime up, you want to use the Rime Proc if you are below 97 RP (HB without KM is worth about 27 RP, each rune refresh gives you 60 RP (at least using Glyph of Disease)).
Note: The math behind this is sort of rough, as there are some details such as the ability to overwrite Rime procs and the possibility of Rime procs lasting until the RP dump section of the *next* rune refresh that would shift the values around slightly.
Spec Comparison
Since I'm using a modified (autoattack not benefitting from TS/RoR, Necrosis not benefitting from various modifiers, 20% UB, Draenei 1% hit aura included, possibly some other bug fixes, not sure which ones are still there in the latest release) version of Kahorie's simulator, I'll provide some numbers I'm getting for other specs, using their respective BiS (or so I believe) gear setups:
3/51/17 (Disease)
7378
0/17/54
7100
3/51/17
7048
0/18/53 (Oblit)
6986
3/51/17 (IIT)
6984
For reference, using the same testing setup as Orlgin (Kyruski's 2nd stat set, etc, where he got 7613 DPS), I'm getting 7109 DPS for the 0/18/53, with nearly identical damage distribution and average damage numbers once you consider the changes I listed above.
Hopefully that includes most of the relevant info :P
I am comfortable in guessing that I am pretty sure without the work of the DW DK playerbase(Which is predominantly Unholy by and large), you would not even have ToT as it is now. Blizzard didn't just sit around and think it up. Some players kept pushing the playstyle in whatever way they could in order to have it function and operate in a raid in such a way as to contribute like any other spec.
If you want to sit around and discuss the merits of each spec based on the buff it brings then you might as well start your own thread and devote some dedicated thought to it. Its pretty clear that sims are only going to go so far in teaching people how these specs will play out under raid conditions.
All of your posts in this particular thread reek of the WoW official forums and the kind of attitude that makes that place a horrible visit. Being respectful and accurate whenever possible is always nice, and your statements on current DW Unholy are neither.
Nobody's being disrespectful or inaccurate, if anything people are running around with rose colored glasses thinking everything is better off now. The fact that you assume everyone likes and should be thanking the DW Unholy community for being forced into DW as Frost while the overall spec gets nerfed is kind of naive. I still don't know why you think I'm outright attacking DW Unholy......I guess stating that it has been proven that 2H Unholy is superior DPS so far until ANY data suggests otherwise, and that nobody should be comparing it directly to DW Frost.
If the above is true (which all data suggests so far), then DW Frost > 2H Frost, 2H Unholy > DW Unholy, so even if DW Unholy > DW Frost, to be viable you would still be going 2H Unholy simply because it is higher DPS for the buffs provided unless you completely disregard viability in which you are cluttering up this thread. TLTR there is no direct comparison between DW Frost and DW Unholy. That is all I'm saying.
Currently its normalized. It heavily favors fast weapons. Which Unholy currently uses.
BCB isn't getting massively buffed for slow weapons in 3.2 (small buff at most), it is getting nerfed for fast weapons.
I'm pretty sure that in a 3.2 parse unholy DW would only be getting 3% or so damage from BCB as well.
Add the fact you also have a 3th disease and BCB should be higher for Unholy DW on Live than it will be for Frost DW on the PTR.
Your parse is from live and due to normalization on live, BCB is not a representation/percentage of your white DPS. Whereas on PTR it will be.
***BCB remarks reference unholy DW in this post***
The notion that BCB "heavily favors" fast weapons is completely false. Every time I look at my parses on WOL (which shows each hand separate) the fast weapon does about .2% more dps. usually about 2.9% vs 2.7% of overall damage.
.2% isn't by any definition a massive difference.
You state that in 3.2. you think DW unholy would be getting only 3% of its damage from BCB? I'm not really sure where you get this assumption from, its really just flat out incorrect.
Bottom line, for anyone using a slow weapon, BCB is going to be doing more damage next patch. Currently, normalization is set at 2.4 speed for 1h weapons. Both Frost and unholy DW will be using slow/slow in 3.2, and as a result both are receiving a buff from BCB. The additional damage slow weapons will cause via BCB due to removal of normalization is easily enough to offset the .2% dps loss from not using a fast offhand.
BCB change can be viewed as a buff from 3.1.3 for all specs.
-Edit: I've received a few PM's with spec details. Darkside has been nice enough to give me permission to copy the format of his old Frost 2h OP, I'll edit the OP tonight to show current builds. I'm fine with moving on to a more build specific focus, as its obvious we have only a few core builds that are going to compete.
If anyone is working on a quality spec post, please get it posted or send it to me in a PM today. I get off work at 5pm and will do the edit at home.
***BCB remarks reference unholy DW in this post***
The notion that BCB "heavily favors" fast weapons is completely false. Every time I look at my parses on WOL (which shows each hand separate) the fast weapon does about .2% more dps. usually about 2.9% vs 2.7% of overall damage.
.2% isn't by any definition a massive difference.
You state that in 3.2. you think DW unholy would be getting only 3% of its damage from BCB? I'm not really sure where you get this assumption from, its really just flat out incorrect.
Bottom line, for anyone using a slow weapon, BCB is going to be doing more damage next patch. Currently, normalization is set at 2.4 speed for 1h weapons. Both Frost and unholy DW will be using slow/slow in 3.2, and as a result both are receiving a buff from BCB. The additional damage slow weapons will cause via BCB due to removal of normalization is easily enough to offset the .2% dps loss from not using a fast offhand.
BCB change can be viewed as a buff from 3.1.3 for all specs.
You realize the 2nd weapon is the offhand right ?
If both the slow and fast weapon do equal % dps that makes the fast weapon 50% better because it strikes for 50% less damage.
Seriously i'm not gonna dig up old data.
Heavily favor is to big a word i used, ill agree. But that is more so because the talent itself is not so impactful in the big picture.
However BCB does favor fast, it doesn't take much to realize that. BCB is a fixed percentage, so fast weapons should nearly proc it twice as often. And the damage that a fast weapon does (due to normalization) is nearly the same as a slow weapon.
The 3% i mentioned was more related to his earlier comments. Simulators pointed out that in 3.2 was gonna be 2-3% of total dps. The person i quoted stated earlier that for HIM BCB did 5.6% of dps. I was merely stating it was going down.
I already mentioned that for slow weapons BCB will be buffed next time. It'll get nerfed for fast weapons, so I'm not really sure why you bring that up again.
Also for unholy BCB will be doing less damage next patch.
On this subject, what is the reason that unholy DW will be using slow offhand weapons.
BCB is getting normalized so it does pretty much the same damage for fast and slow weapons, so that talent will be indiscriminate.
Unholy DW doesn't have any offhand strikes so that is out of the question as well.
Is this purely for the PPM increase that slow weapons bring. And if so, is that reason big enough to say: "Unholy goes slow/slow" or is that increase in ppm uptime small enough to just say that unholy should use slow mainhand and whatever is highest dps in offhand ?
Also for unholy BCB will be doing less damage next patch.
------
On this subject, what is the reason that unholy DW will be using slow offhand weapons.
BCB is getting normalized so it does pretty much the same damage for fast and slow weapons, so that talent will be indiscriminate.
Unholy DW doesn't have any offhand strikes so that is out of the question as well.
Is this purely for the PPM increase that slow weapons bring. And if so, is that reason big enough to say: "Unholy goes slow/slow" or is that increase in ppm uptime small enough to just say that unholy should use slow mainhand and whatever is highest dps in offhand ?
I think you are possibly confused here, and I'm going to address the weapon speed for unholy first in an attempt to show you my point.
-On live, Unholy DW uses slow/fast over slow/slow only because of the *very* slight dps gain via BCB. It doesn't matter if its the offhand, regardless of what speed you put in the offhand its going to get the penalty. Bottom line, for the offhand, a fast weapon only does slightly more damage than a slow weapon.
The reason unholy DW will be switching to Slow / Slow is exactly what you have shown in your previous post. Because slow weapons are gaining a buff in BCB damage. Pure and simple. Weapon speed in the offhand is almost irrelevant on live, the only reason to use fast is for the slight BCB gain, and likewise in 3.2. the only reason to use slow is the gain in BCB damage.
Your previous post shows that Slow weapons will produce more damage in 3.2. via BCB, which is in direct opposition to your statement on this page that "unholy DW will be doing less BCB damage in 3.2."
Rough numbers to illistrate point:
On live
Main Hand BCB 2.7% (slow)
Offhand BCB 2.9% with fast, 2.7% with slow (all my testing shows that putting a slow weapon in the offhand only reduces BCB damage by .2%)
Main Hand BCB 2.7 (+ additional damage from normalization removal)
Offhand BCB 2.7(slow now, but also gains the benefit from normalization removal)
How exactly, do you think that we will be producing less damage when both hands are going to benefit from normalization removal? Remember, on live my offhand BCB damage only goes down by .2% if I swap my fast offhand for a slow offhand.
For reference, using the same testing setup as Orlgin (Kyruski's 2nd stat set, etc, where he got 7613 DPS), I'm getting 7109 DPS for the 0/18/53, with nearly identical damage distribution and average damage numbers once you consider the changes I listed above.
I do believe the Orlgin might have ran the sim with 0ms latency, but I don't understand how you get 7109 with 200ms. With 250ms, I am usually getting around 7375+. This is on version 0.9.4 with a latency of 250ms using setstats2 (with the changes I state later in this post).
Also using some kind of standard stats (i.e. the ones I suggested) will decrease the difference of people testing and allow someone to know when a person could be improving the DPS via rotation or build tweaks. Just like I am noticing now with Orlgin's build and your tests of it. What rotation and build are you using.
Watch out when using the Sim and the Set Stats already in the sim for 0.9.4. I noticed for statset2 that ArP was at 3000 instead of 300 and AP was at 600 instead of 500.
EDIT: Also Astalion, it probably isn't a good idea to just add 330dps to the glyph of disease build and show that it's on top, that makes it comparing 4 Simulated builds to 1 build with theoretical DPS. I know it is hard to do a sim of it, but if you want to do it that way, FIRST do a sim without the Glyph of Blood Strike. Then you can maybe add the Disease glyph in because you are taking it with 4 glyphs right now.
The latest PTR notes on MMO-champion show a drawn line through the "Blood Strike: The bonus damage this ability receives from diseases on the target has been increased to 25% per disease." line, as if it was reverted. I can't access the PTR currently, but I think that it was the reason why glyph of BS was ahead in the first place?
I think you are possibly confused here, and I'm going to address the weapon speed for unholy first in an attempt to show you my point.
-On live, Unholy DW uses slow/fast over slow/slow only because of the *very* slight dps gain via BCB. It doesn't matter if its the offhand, regardless of what speed you put in the offhand its going to get the penalty. Bottom line, for the offhand, a fast weapon only does slightly more damage than a slow weapon.
The reason unholy DW will be switching to Slow / Slow is exactly what you have shown in your previous post. Because slow weapons are gaining a buff in BCB damage. Pure and simple. Weapon speed in the offhand is almost irrelevant on live, the only reason to use fast is for the slight BCB gain, and likewise in 3.2. the only reason to use slow is the gain in BCB damage.
Your previous post shows that Slow weapons will produce more damage in 3.2. via BCB, which is in direct opposition to your statement on this page that "unholy DW will be doing less BCB damage in 3.2."
Rough numbers to illistrate point:
On live
Main Hand BCB 2.7% (slow)
Offhand BCB 2.9% with fast, 2.7% with slow (all my testing shows that putting a slow weapon in the offhand only reduces BCB damage by .2%)
Main Hand BCB 2.7 (+ additional damage from normalization removal)
Offhand BCB 2.7(slow now, but also gains the benefit from normalization removal)
How exactly, do you think that we will be producing less damage when both hands are going to benefit from normalization removal? Remember, on live my offhand BCB damage only goes down by .2% if I swap my fast offhand for a slow offhand.
BCB gets a small buff for slow weapons, as normalization is removed so instead of a 2.4 modifier on AP they get a 2.6 / 2.7 modifier.
Fast weapons go from 2.4 to 1.5/1.6 modifier.
In 3.2 slow weapons WON'T do more damage with BCB, the whole point of the removal of normalization is to remove the fast weapon favorable situation.
They will be doing equal damage. Slow weapons proc it less often but do more damage, and fast weapons proc it often but for less damage.
[e]: Or does BCB have an Internal Cooldown? I asked that before, but nobody replied to that.
I do believe the Orlgin might have ran the sim with 0ms latency, but I don't understand how you get 7109 with 200ms. With 250ms, I am usually getting around 7375+. This is on version 0.9.4 with a latency of 250ms using setstats2 (with the changes I state later in this post).
Simple, as I stated I removed some bugs that increase the damage of autoattacks by 15% (in the case of TS). This could easily make a 250ish difference in DPS (especially with the other minor bug fixes I did).
Originally Posted by Kyruski
EDIT: Also Astalion, it probably isn't a good idea to just add 330dps to the glyph of disease build and show that it's on top, that makes it comparing 4 Simulated builds to 1 build with theoretical DPS. I know it is hard to do a sim of it, but if you want to do it that way, FIRST do a sim without the Glyph of Blood Strike. Then you can maybe add the Disease glyph in because you are taking it with 4 glyphs right now.
If you follow the math I did I already accounted for the Blood Strike glyph being absent (granted, I removed 1/6th of the glyphed damage instead of running a new simulation without the glyph, which might cause rounding errors in the magnitude of 1-2 dps).
My original method used for determining Glyph of Disease dps boost was a lot closer tied to actual simulation output, and showed a dps gain of 237 for the Disease Glyph. I did find the method I used in the post to seem more realistic, but I could edit the other calculations in as well.
As for the preset gear stats, I'm not fully convinced. It does allow for easy comparison of specs, but it also will inevitably favor some specs due to differing EP values. I think it's more interesting to see what each spec optimally is capable of given access to the right (and actually obtainable) gear.
Simple, as I stated I removed some bugs that increase the damage of autoattacks by 15% (in the case of TS). This could easily make a 250ish difference in DPS (especially with the other minor bug fixes I did).
Are you using the new Version of the Sim though. Also I was able to push out close to 250dps more by tweaking priorities and such. You also say in the case of TS, but the Unholy build does not use TS.
And you are correct in the BS glyph/Disease Glyph assumption, I must have passed over that part. But still trying to compare 4 Simulated builds to 1 theoretical build is still somewhat 'unorthodox' as you might say.
Are you using the new Version of the Sim though. Also I was able to push out close to 250dps more by tweaking priorities and such. You also say in the case of TS, but the Unholy build does not use TS.
And you are correct in the BS glyph/Disease Glyph assumption, I must have passed over that part. But still trying to compare 4 Simulated builds to 1 theoretical build is still somewhat 'unorthodox' as you might say.
I still use my own version, my priority and spec were taken directly from Orlgin. I only mentioned TS, but it also affects the 10% bonus from RoR (my mistake for not mentioning that). I'll see if I can reprogram the simulator enough to properly use the Disease Glyph for the purposes of my rotation though.
I still use my own version, my priority and spec were taken directly from Orlgin. I only mentioned TS, but it also affects the 10% bonus from RoR (my mistake for not mentioning that). I'll see if I can reprogram the simulator enough to properly use the Disease Glyph for the purposes of my rotation though.
I just looked at the code that Afabar has here and I see nothing in the Main Hand or Off Hand that includes TS or RoR that would require changing. Which line or lines of code is it that you changed exactly?
In 3.2 slow weapons WON'T do more damage with BCB, the whole point of the removal of normalization is to remove the fast weapon favorable situation.
This is where you are confused. the only part of the BcB calculation that is changing is the AP normalization. a weapon with 2.6 speed would most certainly do more damage in 3.2. Nothing else in the equation changes, except a 2.4 modifier goes to a 2.6. How can you state that the result isn't more damage?
You are contradicting yourself in your own post, you state that Slow weapons are getting a small buff, but then you state that slow weapons won't do more damage via BcB in 3.2.
If the main hand BCB strike is 2.7 percent of my total dps with a 2.4 AP coefficient, and that is going up to 2.6, the result will be larger than 2.7% assuming all other factors remain equal. (Which they do, because nothing is changing except the normalization being removed.)
I just looked at the code that Afabar has here and I see nothing in the Main Hand or Off Hand that includes TS or RoR that would require changing. Which line or lines of code is it that you changed exactly?
Bonus damage multipliers for TS or RoR are calculated in MainStat.vb (StandardPhysicalDamageMultiplier) and then used in the main hand damage code.
This is where you are confused. the only part of the BcB calculation that is changing is the AP normalization. a weapon with 2.6 speed would most certainly do more damage in 3.2. Nothing else in the equation changes, except a 2.4 modifier goes to a 2.6. How can you state that the result isn't more damage?
You are contradicting yourself in your own post, you state that Slow weapons are getting a small buff, but then you state that slow weapons won't do more damage via BcB in 3.2.
If the main hand BCB strike is 2.7 percent of my total dps with a 2.4 AP coefficient, and that is going up to 2.6, the result will be larger than 2.7% assuming all other factors remain equal. (Which they do, because nothing is changing except the normalization being removed.)
Wont do more damage than fast weapons i mean. You keep pulling my quotes out of context. I explained in the 2 lines before that, that the AP contirbution changes so both slow and fast will do equal BCB damage.
Let me rephrase it in an easy to get setup:
Live: Fast does more damage, slow does less damage PTR: Both do equal damage, as BCB unnormalized is a direct portion of your white dps (which is equal if you use same dps weapons, regardless of speed)
Live: Unholy uses Slow/Fast and thus uses the fast offhand to gain benefit out of BCB. You claim its only 0.2% but I put question marks at that, as simple math shows that faster weapons gain about 60% more benefit out of BCB than slow weapons do.
There is no real frost DW build, but assume it existed and assume it would use slow / slow for whatever reason; this is the "hypotetical frost dw build". If its easier, imagine this as a situation where BCB wasn't normalized. They would gain less benefit from BCB than with a fast weapon.
PTR: Unholy can either use Slow/Fast or Slow/Slow, in regards to BCB it doesn't matter one bit anymore because either will perform the exact same DPS (One of the 2 can still be preferred for other reasons, like boosting PPM with slow/slow).
Technically Unholy DW loses some of the benefit it used to gain out of BCB, after all their "fast weapon BCB benefit" has been terminated.
The "hypothetical frost DW build" using slow/slow, gets a small buff because slower weapons no longer suffer under the normalization. The hypotetical build would gain some out of BCB in 3.2.
Unless i'm missing something really obvious this is the situation, regarding BCB (AND BCB ONLY !):
- Fast weapons were better
- Slow weapons were worse
- Fast weapons get nerfed
- Slow weapons get buffed
- Slow and Fast weapons are now equally good
- Builds that used slow/fast; will gain less out of BCB after the patch (Unholy DW)
- Builds that used slow/slow, will gain more out of BCB (No build on live really, but BCB became more attractive for the frost DW build)
If you disagree with any point of this, let me know which one and ill explain my vision on it.
And realize that the weapon damage component is really really small.
So what you are saying is that you don't think the 2.4 to 2.6 AP modifier change on both hands is enough to override the .2% extra dps that the fast offhand did in 3.2?
Do you have any calculations on this? As you state, the weapon damage part is small, its the AP contribution and number of diseases that play the major role in total damage. Changing the AP modifier from 2.4 to 2.6 (or 2.7) on both hands should easily be more than .2% overall BCB damage.
-Remember, there is no reason to even consider a fast weapon in 3.2. Everyone should be using slow/slow.
07/22/09, 3:56 AM
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