I just looked at the code that Afabar has here and I see nothing in the Main Hand or Off Hand that includes TS or RoR that would require changing. Which line or lines of code is it that you changed exactly?
This part includes the TS/RoR multipliers, I simply added lines to divide the MH/OH autoattack damage by the TS/RoR multipliers (not the most elegant solution, but it works).
I'm still working on the Glyph of Disease simulation, it still isn't perfect (it makes mistakes that end up lowering the DPS), but it appears so far that my higher estimate was closer to reality. I'll get back with more details if I manage to perfect it though.
So what you are saying is that you don't think the 2.4 to 2.6 AP modifier change on both hands is enough to override the .2% extra dps that the fast offhand did in 3.2?
Do you have any calculations on this? As you state, the weapon damage part is small, its the AP contribution and number of diseases that play the major role in total damage. Changing the AP modifier from 2.4 to 2.6 (or 2.7) on both hands should easily be more than .2% overall BCB damage.
-Remember, there is no reason to even consider a fast weapon in 3.2. Everyone should be using slow/slow.
I think it's a lot more simple than this exchange has made it seem, and on many portions you are both agreeing without realizing it. On live, fast makes sense because you're hitting with "extra" AP. In 3.2, BCB will function just like (half) a white hit, thus, weapon speed does not matter for the talent. Bottom line: Slow/Slow for Frost. Moving on!!!
Well hold on, builds like 0/18/53 and 0/17/54 Could use Fast OH since it won't really gain anything from being slow. It is pretty much a stat stick.
Its possible that for your given circumstance the fast weapon might be better (IE Item level), but with normalization being removed from BCB, slow will be the desirable speed for both hands. The only time the offhand is a statstick would be in the case of no ToT and no BCB. Which isnt a likely build.
@ halcor:
As noted in the first part of the BCB debate you are talking about, we are discussing Unholy DW's BCB damage. We are not debating Frost's BCB damage.
Its possible that for your given circumstance the fast weapon might be better (IE Item level), but with normalization being removed from BCB, slow will be the desirable speed for both hands.
The only time the offhand is a statstick would be in the case of no ToT and no BCB. Neither of which is a likely build.
Although I agree with you on the no ToT part, the No BCB part has nothing to do with it. BCB will hit for the same amount over a period of time when comparing a slow weapon vs. a fast weapon. BCB should now do the same damage whether a weapon is slow or fast, IF it has the same DPS.
So what you are saying is that you don't think the 2.4 to 2.6 AP modifier change on both hands is enough to override the .2% extra dps that the fast offhand did in 3.2?
Do you have any calculations on this? As you state, the weapon damage part is small, its the AP contribution and number of diseases that play the major role in total damage. Changing the AP modifier from 2.4 to 2.6 (or 2.7) on both hands should easily be more than .2% overall BCB damage.
-Remember, there is no reason to even consider a fast weapon in 3.2. Everyone should be using slow/slow.
Well the AP modifier change on main hand indeed closens the gap, i forgot about that.
But offhand modifier does NOT offset for the extra dps fast used to provide.
Also i still doubt your 0.2%.
But i can do some numbers if you want, prove myself wrong in the process perhaps.
BCB doesn't crit. Ill leave out any modifiers as they are equal for everything.
I'm gonna adjust it slightly so the dps is the same, ill use 178.8 dps.
Main hand (pre-normalzation change):
178.8 * 2.6 + ( 5000 / 14 * 2.4) = 1322 damage per BCB strike
BCB procs 3 times every 10 hits (= 3 hits every 26 seconds) for 62.5% damage.
1322 * 3 / 26 * 0.625 = 95.34 dps
Off hand (pre-normalization change):
0.575 * (178.8 * 1.5 + ( 5000 / 14 * 2.4)) = 647 damage per BCB strike
BCB procs 3 times every 10 hits (= 3 hits every 15 seconds) for 62.5% damage.
647 * 3 / 15 * 0.625 = 80.88 dps
Total = 176.22 dps
------
Main hand (post-normalzation change):
178.8 * 2.6 + ( 5000 / 14 * 2.6) = 1391 damage per BCB strike
BCB procs 3 times every 10 hits (= 3 hits every 26 seconds) for 62.5% damage.
1391 * 3 / 26 * 0.625 = 100.34 dps
Off hand (post-normalization change):
0.575 * (178.8 * 1.5 + ( 5000 / 14 * 1.5)) = 462.25 damage per BCB strike
BCB procs 3 times every 10 hits (= 3 hits every 15 seconds) for 62.5% damage.
462.25 * 3 / 15 * 0.625 = 57.78 dps
Slow off hand (post-normalization change):
0.575 * (178.8 * 2.6 + ( 5000 / 14 * 2.6)) = 799.83 damage per BCB strike
BCB procs 3 times every 10 hits (= 3 hits every 26 seconds) for 62.5% damage.
799.83 * 3 / 26 * 0.625 = 57.68 dps
Total = 158.12 dps
-----------
Therefor unholy DW will GAIN LESS from BCB after the normalization change.
And as you can see using slow or fast weapons matters nothing in regards to BCB. in this case fast is still slightly better even.
If there is no more reason not to use fast weapons, it does not lie in BCB.
For frost DW the reason is obvious: Offhand strikes
For Unholy DW the only reason i can think of right now is that slower weapons have a higher PPM proc chance.
But I doubt the impact is very big, therefor i suggest that the guideline for unholy should be changed to:
- Slow main hand + Highest dps offhand of any speed.
Although I agree with you on the no ToT part, the No BCB part has nothing to do with it. BCB will hit for the same amount over a period of time when comparing a slow weapon vs. a fast weapon. BCB should now do the same damage whether a weapon is slow or fast, IF it has the same DPS.
That's absolutely untrue, unless everyone involved in the debate on the previous pages, including myself is completely off base.
The only reason a fast weapon can do anywhere near the BCB dps of a slow weapon currently is due to normalization. The weapon damage portion of the equation is tiny, the AP Coefficent is what makes the difference. In 3.1.3 every 1 hander was set at 2.4. In 3.2. a fast weapon would be set at 1.5 or 1.6, where a slow weapon would be allowed to gain its entire 2.6 or 2.7 benefit from AP.
Are you sure you have looked into how this works? I don't think everyone is offbase.
That's absolutely untrue, unless everyone involved in the debate on the previous pages, including myself is completely off base.
The only reason a fast weapon can do anywhere near the BCB dps of a slow weapon currently is due to normalization. The weapon damage portion of the equation is tiny, the AP Coefficent is what makes the difference. In 3.1.3 every 1 hander was set at 2.4. In 3.2. a fast weapon would be set at 1.5 or 1.6, where a slow weapon would be allowed to gain its entire 2.6 or 2.7 benefit from AP.
Are you sure you have looked into how this works? I don't think everyone is offbase.
The keypoint you forget is that BCB is a set percentage proc.
Fast weapons hit for way less, but proc BCB way more often. I guess that's where you're going off. If not you would be 100% right.
Excuses to the people who don't care for this somewhat heated debate. It's quite important everyone is on the same line here if we want to get stuff straightened out though.
@Fargom: The talent now works exactly as described, and can be averaged as (2.5% + 1.25% per Disease) per point added to each hit - it should be fairly obvious that weapon speed has no effect on a straight percentage autoattack damage boost.
@Kyruski (and anyone else interested): Added some simulation data to my post on the previous page, showing Glyph of Disease at almost exactly the dps my calculations arrived at (coming out at 7374 DPS compared to my 7378 calculated). It still is not simulating 100% properly though, and resorts to refreshing using IT/PS about once every 3 minutes. This leads me to believe that the Glyph of Disease is actually even better than what I calculated if used properly, but I'm not quite sure how to make the simulator do it any better.
Edit: Using your second statset I got 7488 DPS btw, just for the record.
The keypoint you forget is that BCB is a set percentage proc.
Fast weapons hit for way less, but proc BCB way more often. I guess that's where you're going off. If not you would be 100% right.
Excuses to the people who don't care for this somewhat heated debate. It's quite important everyone is on the same line here if we want to get stuff straightened out though.
I must have forgotten about the flat proc chance, however, some of my past parses don't seem to match up 100% with the expected damage. Overall though, I think your math is correct.
I woulden't consider this a heated debate, this is exactly how each mechanic should be looked at. As long as everyone keeps it civil we are going to end up with a great thread here. I'm going to link your post above in the edit of the OP I do tonight explaining new BCB mechanics.
RE: Glyph of disease:
If the glyph of disease ends up being that good remind me to buy our 100% attendance enhancement shaman a beer at blizzcon. All jokes aside, it does seem a silly design if skipping the major raidbuff for that spec produces so much extra dps. If anyone feels they can correctly explain the build that uses the disease glyph, please send me a detailed PM. I'd love to get it on the possible spec list for the OP edit tonight.
I used 200ms latency but I also used 2 and 4pc T8 bonuses which was the difference. I also used the 9.3 simulator so I'll redo it on the 9.4 version to see the difference. When I am done, I'll edit this post. I'll take out the set bonuses for the new simulation.
EP Stat AttackPower
DPS 7509
Total Damage 14867439835 in 550 h
Threat Per Second 4986
******************EP CALCULATOR************************
EP :AttackPower = 100
EP :Strength = 305
EP :Agility = 97
EP :CritRating = 150
EP :HasteRating = 152
EP :ArmorPenetrationRating = 155
EP :ExpertiseRating = 325
EP :HitRating = 436
EP :SpellHitRating = 219
EP :WeaponDPS = 527
EP :WeaponSpeed = 16666
EP :2T7 = 95
EP :4T7 = 194
EP :2T8 = 202
EP :4T8 = 179
Last edited by Orlgin : 07/23/09 at 8:16 AM.
Reason: EP added
Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
Martin Luther King Jr.
@Orlgin: I was using the T8 2/4p set bonuses for my testing as well.
You are still getting 30% damage from UB, and your autoattack/Necrosis damage is still getting the 10% from RoR however. Removing the additional damage from that corresponds to a 288 dps loss, or 7149 dps (that's around 40 dps over my simulations, can't think of any reason off the top of my head why that might be though - anyway it's not a huge discrepancy)
Edit: Hmm, just read what you said about taking out set bonuses, that increases the gap again.. I'll look into it, I'm pretty sure that at least spec/stats/priority are correct though.
Used the .94 version of the simulator, using a 15/53/3 and still getting off results. Tested at 200ms Latency, 1000 hours.
First, I'll post the dry run.
Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
Obliterate 4941495050 29 1177178 24 75 0 4197
Plague Strike 381299954 2 449836 53 46 0 847
Icy Touch 575905101 3 224767 36 57 5 2562
Frost Strike 4152672482 24 1410960 37 62 0 2943
Howling Blast 330745283 1 59148 48 45 5 5591
Blood Strike 982140414 5 568800 44 55 0 1726
Frost Fever 633805325 3 1052606 100 0 0 602
Blood Plague 595279722 3 1046322 100 0 0 568
Main Hand 2734622017 16 1535652 34 46 18 1780
Off Hand 1568289264 9 2391071 34 46 18 655
Raz 52819543 0 2391071 100 0 0 22
EP Stat DryRun
DPS 4708
Total Damage 16949074155 in 1000 h
Threat Per Second 2856
Generated in 505s
Template :Armaletale.xml(C:\Users\Christopher\Documents\DKSimulator0.9.4\Templates\Armaletale. xml)
Priority :Armaletale.xml(C:\Users\Christopher\Documents\DKSimulator0.9.4\Priority\Armaletale.x ml)
Presence :Blood
Sigil of :Awareness
RuneForge :FallenCrusader / Razorice
Pet Calculation :False
Now the EP Values. Oddities in bold.
******************EP CALCULATOR************************
EP :AttackPower = 100
EP :Strength = 241
EP :Agility = 86
EP :CritRating = 113 EP :HasteRating = -63
EP :ArmorPenetrationRating = 131
EP :ExpertiseRating = 196
EP :HitRating = 234
EP :SpellHitRating = 106
EP :WeaponDPS = 672
EP :WeaponSpeed = 30172
EP :2T7 = 162
EP :4T7 = 196
EP :2T8 = 165
EP :4T8 = 213
These are the stats that I used, as they're my current, live stats.
Barring the lower than standard DPS results (as I said, I've been out of the game for awhile, and don't have BiS gear, by a long shot), I still can't figure out what, if anything, I'm doing wrong...
If the glyph of disease ends up being that good remind me to buy our 100% attendance enhancement shaman a beer at blizzcon. All jokes aside, it does seem a silly design if skipping the major raidbuff for that spec produces so much extra dps. If anyone feels they can correctly explain the build that uses the disease glyph, please send me a detailed PM. I'd love to get it on the possible spec list for the OP edit tonight.
It has less to do with any build, but more of a rotation optimization. DW Frost in blood presence has wasted RP/Rime procs because there aren't enough free GCDs to use them all if you are applying PS+IT every 20 seconds. Using pestilence lets you trade your lowest 3 GCDs for 2 of your strongest. Even though a GCD is wasted for 0 damage pestilence, OB+HB is just a lot more damage then BS+PS+IT.
This presumes latency limits you to 12 GCDs per 20seconds. If you could actually get 13, the math would change significantly.
OP updated as much as I could fit in before my raid tonight, thanks again to Darkside for allowing us to borrow his format.
Please send PM's with additional info and or comments regarding the OP. Feel free to nitpick and or send me suggestions for anything. I might be able to fit some more editing in after raid, or at the latest tomorrow.
*Note: Yes, the OP currently has plain text for glyphs/items/spells. In time I will use the Wowhead links to make the OP higher quality.
Thanks!
-Good catch on the AMS soaking section, that's a direct copy of the 2h frost thread. I'll update that when I Can.
With Frost Strike easily being Frost's hardest hitting and most used ability (generally about 35-40% of your total damage will be from FS), Frost is by far the most RP reliant of the three major Death Knight DPS specs. As such, generating large amounts of RP is of vital concern for a DK who wants to top the damage meters.
Nice update, but you might want to update this part of the AMS as FS is no longer the hardest hitting ability. OB does quite a bit more now because of Sigil of Awareness. I don't know about the new Sigil though. Also, you don't have a Sigil listed for the first build which probably is using Awareness I think. And maybe list the Major glyphs for each build, though some are obvious.
For those running the sims is the new Sigil better than Awareness for OB heavy builds? Or any testing with the new Tier 9 bonus?
Nice update, but you might want to update this part of the AMS as FS is no longer the hardest hitting ability. OB does quite a bit more now because of Sigil of Awareness. I don't know about the new Sigil though. Also, you don't have a Sigil listed for the first build which probably is using Awareness I think. And maybe list the Major glyphs for each build, though some are obvious.
For those running the sims is the new Sigil better than Awareness for OB heavy builds? Or any testing with the new Tier 9 bonus?
Starting at http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t64830-d...6/#post1319408 Astallion and I discussed the viability of Unholy presence and extra RP. The offshoot was its very hard to even start doing more damage in UP., so its unlikely using AMS to generate RP is going to do DW frost much good.
Starting at http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t64830-d...6/#post1319408 Astallion and I discussed the viability of Unholy presence and extra RP. The offshoot was its very hard to even start doing more damage in UP., so its unlikely using AMS to generate RP is going to do DW frost much good.
Its possible i will simply delete that entire section. Its a direct port from the frost thread.
I suppose it is less useful for frost DW. But wouldn't it still be decent for unholy DW builds that build as much RP for DCs anyway, since they are using UP anyways.
I used 200ms latency but I also used 2 and 4pc T8 bonuses which was the difference. I also used the 9.3 simulator so I'll redo it on the 9.4 version to see the difference. When I am done, I'll edit this post. I'll take out the set bonuses for the new simulation.
EP Stat AttackPower
DPS 7509
Total Damage 14867439835 in 550 h
Threat Per Second 4986
I see now why you are getting different numbers, you are using a sigil that isnt in the game yet. Why stop there? Why not just full tier 9 with the new weapons too.
I see now why you are getting different numbers, you are using a sigil that isnt in the game yet. Why stop there? Why not just full tier 9 with the new weapons too.
I believe, there is a clear reason as to why you would want to sim with BiS for each respective spec.
So you know the theoretical limits of each spec clearly, figuring out the scaling between dungeon tiers typically comes from real world playing, afterward.
I believe, there is a clear reason as to why you would always want to sim with BiS for each respective spec.
So you know the theoretical limits of each spec clearly, figuring out the scaling between dungeon tiers typically comes from real world playing, afterward.
Stats will vary with gear but weapon dps is capped like the sigil is. I don't see why we don't just save time and go with the best known weapon dps even if it is from the ptr. Same with the tier bonuses. This testing right now is to find out what these builds can do with 3.2 talents, makes sense to do it with the 3.2 bonuses that we will be using. Its not like the limits going to be achieved with Crusader stats but tier 8 bonuses, unless the new tier is really bad.
I can see it from another point of view, we wont have tier 9 the the first week it hits, but we neither will anyone have the sigil. I think if you are going to use tier 8 set bonuses you should limit your self to 3.1 sigils as well unless you are mixing and matching every combination to find the highest number.
If everyone is going to use random stats for the simulator runs we might as well just make a contest out of it who can produce the highest number per spec.
Either that or we should stop adding to the chaos by posting simulator results of random gearsets and go back to preset templates that everyone can use.
I will see if i have some time over the weekend to run some stuff. At the moment i'm to busy with work and raiding.
Anyway if we go for templates I suggest we should go with 3 templates:
- Very low stats, this is a base so you can get a feeling for the scaling of a certain spec / talent.
- Current stats, so we get an idea where the dual wield builds would end up with our current gear level, this gives a good insight in where we stand compared to say 2H builds.
- 3.2 BiS stats, this can be either from what we already know, or by using some extrapolation and fictive numbers.
Anyway, if we have those templates and everyone can stick to them. We can either run a certain spec through all 3 templates, a talent through all 3 templates. Or you can compare between builds / talents within 1 template.
Doesn't having longer range on HB(And CoI+ IT) while still grabbing DeathChill and HungeringCold for utility work out better in your minds than Improved Frost Presence, which is the suggested 2 point "waste" talent in the Frost tree on your way to the 8th tier.
Icy Reach I can see being actually useful in quite a few scenarios, as you are going to be running full disease lengths with no clipping due to Disease glyph, so getting those diseases up, and having the freedom to tag mobs from distance, and have more room for HB usage in say fights with adds, i think it outweighs stamina.
I am thinking flexibility here, those points being moved would not effect dps by just trading stamina for range on CoI, HB and IT. Seems clear to me, but perhaps someone can show me why stamina is the better choice.
I was under the impression there was more than enough stamina on raid plate.
Anyway, if we have those templates and everyone can stick to them. We can either run a certain spec through all 3 templates, a talent through all 3 templates. Or you can compare between builds / talents within 1 template.
Info on those stat sets I made: There is no specific reason/group of items that made up those stats. What I was trying to go for were 3 different situations. One with somewhat average stats Spell Hit and Somewhat good Exp, One with special hit but no spell hit with high Exp, and one with low Exp but somewhat higher Hit. I also added different values that could correspond to some potential changes made between the two, i.e. how you trade certain stats for other. If I made ArP higher with one, the haste would usually be lower than the others.
I just wanted to give some insight into the choice of those stats just to try and defer people from trying to swear by them. They can be helpful, but they were just example stats. We can probably make some more suited stat sets if needed.
07/22/09, 6:41 PM
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