@Unlimiter:You used your total attack power instead of just AP from gear. I tried to look up correct amount but got an Armory error. Your attack power is way too high which scewed the results.

You are also supposed to use results from the same set of data instead of using your own. We have been using statset2 edited to have 300 ArP.

Hm not sure why not but i changed the statset to 2 ran once and pulled 7k dps but after that the rotation seems to fail putting up numbers like 1600 dps etc.

I think it must have something to do with the priority. Here's what i'm running.

statset2 w/300arp

- <Priority>
<FrostFever />
<BloodPlague />
<KMRime />
<Obliterate />
<BloodStrike />
<FrostStrike />
</Priority>

<Rotation>
- <Rotation>
<IcyTouch retry="1" />
<PlagueStrike retry="1" />
<BloodStrike retry="1" />
<Pestilence retry="1" />
<Obliterate retry="1" />
<FrostStrike retry="0" />
<Obliterate retry="1" />
<FrostStrike retry="0" />
<Obliterate retry="1" />
<FrostStrike retry="0" />
<Obliterate retry="1" />
<FrostStrike retry="0" />
</Rotation>
- <Runes>
<Blood />
<Blood />
<Frost />
<Frost />
<Unholy />
<Unholy />
</Runes>
</Rotation>

I had some trouble getting Unlimiter's rotation to work, but was able to eventually. Came in at 6216 DPS on a 24 hour simulation run with stat set 2. Standard 200ms latency, etc. etc.

This is plain wrong.

First of all 9% crit does not mean you do 9% more damage. That would only apply if you have no crit to start with.

Obliterate has a high critrate already so the talent diminishes. Say you have 60% crit on obliterate already, adding 9% on that would mean it does:

169% / 160% = 1.056. That means you only increase the damage from your obliterate by 5.6%, not by 9%.

Now i did not account for the crit bonus, i grant you that.

The actual damage increase when you factor in the 1.45 multiplier is:

( 1 + new crit*1.45 ) / ( 1 + old crit*1.45)

in the case of this example, assuming you have say.... 50% crit on obliterate (which is reasonable if you factor rime + base crit + annihilation).

( 1 + 0.59*1.45 ) / ( 1+0.50*1.45 ) = 1.0756
Or a 7.56% damage increase.

More than i expected, but far less than 13%

For bloodstrike its (assuming you have 30% crit): (1+0.39*1.45)/(1+0.30*1.45) = 9.09% damage increase.

And if obliterates make up about 25% of yoru dps and bloodstrikes make up 5% of your total dps that means subversion is:

7.56 * 0.25 + 9.09 * 0.05 = 1.89 + 0.45 = 2.34% dps increase for 3 points

Point for point that is 0.78% dps per point.





---------

EDIT: Also if you use the simulator you either use a rotation or a priority system. You can't use both. With glyph of disease i think you can not do a priority rotation (since priority doesn't allow for 1 bloodrune on BS and one on PT I think)

Ah yes your right regarding crit. I was thinking of the overall crit bonus(C*1.45*1.03) and not an individual breakdown.

Ok so ran the sim on the 15/53/3 again

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
Obliterate 161917319 26 16802 31 68 0 9636
Plague Strike 7029603 1 2772 55 44 0 2535
Icy Touch 12341086 2 3321 38 60 0 3716
Frost Strike 172079497 28 18688 44 55 0 9208
Howling Blast 41012395 6 3455 0 99 0 11870
Blood Strike 21041097 3 4990 47 52 0 4216
Frost Fever 22442153 3 23998 100 0 0 935
Blood Plague 20527304 3 24081 100 0 0 852
Main Hand 94249107 15 37700 38 45 15 2499
Off Hand 53661423 8 37548 39 44 16 1429
Ghoul 2537630 0 19950 86 13 0 127
Raz 337932 0 37548 100 0 0 9
DPS 7051
Total Damage 609176546 in 24 h
Threat Per Second 4247
Generated in 45s
Template W-15-53-3.xml(C:\Documents and Settings\Unlimiter\Desktop\DKSimulator0.9.6\Templates\DW-15-53-3.xml)
Priority :dw frost.xml(C:\Documents and Settings\Unlimiter\Desktop\DKSimulator0.9.6\Priority\dw frost.xml)
Presence :Blood
Sigil of :VengefulHeart
RuneForge :FallenCrusader / Razorice
Pet Calculation :True

The thing is its not following the PT rotation this sim doesnt seem to be able to factor in KMRime with a rotation. So i'll try running the sim with the PT rotation and just put in the HB numbers by hand.


Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
Obliterate 153411641 28 16064 30 69 0 9550
Plague Strike 10231662 1 4017 55 44 0 2547
Icy Touch 11933840 2 4017 42 56 0 2970
Frost Strike 154626725 28 16064 33 66 0 9625
Blood Strike 17014594 3 4017 47 52 0 4235
Frost Fever 22385832 4 24094 100 0 0 929
Blood Plague 20131999 3 23871 100 0 0 843
Main Hand 93675508 17 37685 39 45 15 2485
Off Hand 53896660 9 37769 39 44 15 1427
Ghoul 2506834 0 19770 87 12 0 126
Raz 339921 0 37769 100 0 0 9
DPS 6252
Total Damage 540155216 in 24 h
Threat Per Second 3766
Generated in 22s
Template W-15-53-3.xml(C:\Documents and Settings\Unlimiter\Desktop\DKSimulator0.9.6\Templates\DW-15-53-3.xml)
Rotation :dw frost rot.xml(C:\Documents and Settings\Unlimiter\Desktop\DKSimulator0.9.6\Rotation\dw frost rot.xml)
Presence :Blood
Sigil of :VengefulHeart
RuneForge :FallenCrusader / Razorice
Pet Calculation :True

Howling blast adds 474 dps bringing the pest rotation upto 6726 dps

So the 15/53/3 spec is just fail.

If you need to figure proc timing in you really need to go with a priority sheet instead of a rotation.

@Kithus
You can not make a priority with the PT glyph though. Unless you can come up with a priority that uses 1 of the 2 blood runes on PT and the other on BS.

@Lordxvirii
Actual dps numbers in game are so incredibly sensitive and contain so many variables that you simply can't get a good view of a spec unless you have a solid stream of data comming in.

3 People here can go test something on the PTR but i'll tell you that 3 people will come back with totally different results. There is the gear factor, the skill factor, the experience factor. The fact that certain bosses push preference towards a certain spec.

The list goes on and on. Unless you can find 10.000 volunteers that test a combination of bosses, you won't get any valuable data from PTR.

The real conclusion about specs won't come until 3.2 has been live for a few weeks. The best we can do until then is compare specs and talents on an equal ground with a simulator that cuts down on all variables.

Well that makes sense. Forgive me for my outburst, but eyes start hurting when I see all these numbers. Thanks for enlightening me

Since I was a bit bored a few minutes ago, i decided to run a few more short (50h) tests on most of the popular frost DW builds.

Instead of the preset setstat2 gear, i used the stats from the current BiS blood gear and using 180 dps weapons (which is around the best dps weapons at the moment)

The gearlist looks like this:
The builds i tested were all so close that it seems that spec is gonna come down to preference above anything else.

The only thing i notice is that blood is a definite drop with this gear. Although you could probably push it up, using Unlimiter's rotation (which currently can't be implemented really well).

I still fail to see the huge merrit of blood subspec though, as unholy seems to be at least as good, with way better scaling than blood subspec currently has.

As for the results:

Spec	DPS
53/18	6646
3/52/16	6615
3/53/15	6629
1/52/18	6615
10/54/7	6473
15/53/3	6317

These differences are so minute you can go with what you like best. Although the 53/18 spec seems to scale better when getting higher gear (ilevel 226 upward). 3/53/15 seems to be one of the best with worse gear (ilevell 213 and down)

[e]:
Believe me I'd love nothing more than to get some nice PTR data, but i know from experience that that often just leads to confusion.

Patchwerk is going to be activated soon, so those that are on the PTR might want to have a whack at him. Pretty much the ideal Boss to test.

Well, this shows blood subspec is at least competitive enough to surely be better for PvP Thanks for running all these numbers Foxx!

I'm not currently on the PTR but I'd like to see some numbers for the 3/50/18 specc as I find that one quite interesting for single target dps.

Have you guys used Sigil of Vengeful Heart on all your testing? I tested DW builds on the PTR today and I noticed a significant dps increase (from 3850 to 4030 on Heroic Dummy, standard rotation, 6min testing, 3/54/14, HoW, no UA used) by using Sigil of Awareness, Obliterate hits sooooooo much harder (MH max crits went from 7k to 9k) The rotation is so tight, and there is not a surplus of RP, which basically equals the amount of FS's and OB's to the same. And OB does way more damage compared to FS. Critchance is about the same for both attacks.

@Puupi - Regarding that, i tried both of those as well, but my SotVH seemed to increase my DPS more. However, this could scale with gear, maybe depending on the ArP you have? I am not really sure as to how you are getting 9k Main hand crits when i can barely pull that with a 2h, and i have 10/25 Ulduar gear.

@Foxx - What rotation are you using for the 53/18 ? I am curious as to find out what i can do with that spec

I'm using Rawr 2.2.10.0, with a Frost DW 0/53/18 and all my current gear (as paltry as it might seem). The buffs I've enabled are Horn of Winter, Improved Icy Talons, Improved Mark of the Wild, and Blessing of Kings. I've switched it over to 3.2+ToT mode.

The rotation I've enabled is a "custom" one, with 2 diseases, 20 sec rotation duration, Blood Presence, 1 IT, 1 PS, 3 OB and 2 BS, letting Rawr manage my FS for me.

With 2x Razorscale Talons (RI/FC) and the Sigil of Awareness, I get 3963 Total DPS. Changing only the Sigil (Vengeful Heart), I get 4324 Total DPS.

Looking at where the difference is, with no Sigil at all, Rawr estimates my Obliterate DPS to be 604 and my Frost Strike DPS to be 770. With Awareness this changes to OB 812 and FS 770. With Vengeful Heart this goes to OB 604 and FS 1340.

Is it possible that Awareness is just so old that even though Obliterate > Frost Strike, the new Sigil is just plain better?

Is anyone else using Rawr? How does it stack up to the simulator I keep hearing about? I understand that Rawr is going to be a little off, but it's at least got to be in the ball-park, right?

@puupi:
All deep frost builds are using awareness, for unholy it depends if you use the obliterate heavy build or the DC spam build.
But ye, my tests were with sigil of awareness.

@Adamas
I use a priority rotation that goes like this:

FF > BP > KM rime > Obliterate > Blood Strike > Frost strike

It generally comes down to a rotation like this:
IT>PS>OB>BS>BS > FS dump
OB>OB>FS>OB > FS dump

I could go play around with it a little bit more, and maybe push more dps out of it. I might try that later today.

Seems more like the Rawr thing hasn't been updated with the massive nerf to VH for FS, and maybe not including the FS nerfs.

Awareness is much much better than VH even with 0 ArP. Since you get about equal amounts of OB as FS, but Awareness mod is so much larger on both hands compared to the tiny amount VH gives now.

Another consideration is that rawr 2.2.10.0 OH damage math doesn't work for DPSDK, so your results will be innacurate.

I've been using this spec for a while now and I'm starting to get much better gear upgrades but I'm not seeing much of a dps upgrade.
My armor pen. value is getting ever higher and I question whether str may be a more valuable resource than armor pen to gem/gear for at a certain level. To my understanding armor pen is always the best stat to stack (when stacking it) up to 100% reduced armor (or 75% + Raid Buffs) while maintaining healthy levels of exp. hit. crit. and haste.

Rawr and other tools, however, are modeling str as a more valuable stat than armor pen., and I'm always getting higher simulation dps from gemming str than armor pen.

If anyone can clue me in to what I'm missing I would greatly appreciate it - thanks.

Oh yeah, right. I always find it weird thinking about what my "rotation" is when I'm not actually playing.

I just editted the Sigil of the Vengeful Heart in Rawr so the FS bonus is now only 113 (I think this is the correct PTR value).

Okay, so with those modifications in Rawr 2.2.10.0:
No sigil: 4163 DPS (OB 811, FS 925)
Awareness: 4441 DPS (OB 1090, FS 925)
V.Heart: 4364 DPS (OB 811, FS 1125)

So even with only 9% ArP on my gear, I'm now seeing that Awareness beats V.Heart in Rawr 2.2.10.0. I guess this has been said many times before, but it is thoroughly disappointing that an Ulduar Sigil pales in comparison to a Naxx one.

I'm noticing now too, that with the correct focus on Obliterate, Rawr is suggesting FC/FC is at least 3 times better than any alternative. And Blood Presence pulls ahead of Unholy Presence. It would appear that I'm going to have to get used to a 1.5sec GCD again, /sigh.

@Adamas

I think the gear I got on PTR has like 250 ArP and Grim Toll, so that might affect a bit. Copied the char there long time ago, it doesn't have all the gear I have now.

@Spoonyou
No one said that strength was a lesser stat than armor pen.

AttackPower = 100
Strength = 258
Agility = 116
CritRating = 163
HasteRating = 141
ArmorPenetrationRating = 200
ExpertiseRating = 289
HitRating = 353
SpellHitRating = 138
WeaponDPS = 646
WeaponSpeed = 27692
2T7 = -4
4T7 = -4
2T8 = 0
4T8 = 9
2T9 = 0

Expertise is the most surprising thing. From what i hear its good to max it out along with hit. I cant remember what that number is though.