DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand - Page 29

Foxx2405 · 07/20/09, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by Amiko

@Foxx2405

The IIT debuff is 20 seconds, which is actually a fair amount of time to do things -- you can interrupt the oblit/disease rotation every "other" rune set for an icy touch to keep the buff up without loosing too much dps. ( Wow Web Stats -- 10 man vezax hardmode of me doing that. Only ~90% up time cause i'm still working it out. )

Yea but if you have to use an icy touch every other rune set, then what use is glyph of disease ?

You might just as well follow a:

IT>PS>OB>BS>BS
OB>OB>OB

rotation then, because thats nearly the same.

If you use glyph of diseases you might not need to reapply PS, but you still need to IT every 20 sec to keep IIT up, which means you're either stuck with an unused unholy or death rune.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you somehow.

AFAIK the rotation you want is:

OB>OB>PT>BS
OB>OB>IT>xx

Which is the same only without using PS.

Odii · 07/20/09, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Bloodscape

well with the IT build.

Say averaging 7k ap raid buffed and i'm not even in full u25 gear pulling 6900 on avg.

Oblit would hit for ~9k
IT ~3.5k
FS ~7k
HB ~ 6500

So lets figure

Oblit +15% Hb = 10k *1.15 for BP = 11.5k
ITx2 + FS = 14k

So the rotation itself would produce more dps. However would not have access to necrosis or bcb which are easily 10% of a dw's overall dps.

Say we average 6k dps most fights(seems like a reasonable number for a quick comparison)
bcb + necro = 600 dps for the OB frost/unholy build
IT build loses 2 ob in favor of 4it and 2 fs 7000/20sec = 350 dps
However gains Bladed Barrier ~400ap

So 600 dps vs 350 dps +400 ap and a few other small bonuses.

One last question i have regarding the pest ob rotation is... Since glyph ot pest only refreshes the diseases and technically does not apply them for icy talons purposes. Does it recalculate the coefficient.

For instance if say we popped unbreakable then applied diseases if refreshing the diseases with pest would it keep the bonus ap coef throughout the fight?

Anyways atm I'm planning a 14/54/3, as i accumulate more hit as my gear advances I'll probably shift to a 17/54 at least until the highest dps spec for dk's is finalized. Atm I'm getting very accustomed to 0/17/54 dw

So on this same page we were discussing how much extra RP you would need to make UP viable with a standard OB heavy rotation. It was 53.

Now your rotation generates 60 extra RP over the OB heavy rotation we were discussing by trading 4IT for 2 OB, so you made it by 7 right? Not so much. You lose half a HB via Rime proc, which is worth significantly more then 7 RP. And you lose the Glyph of Blood Strike, so you lose 1/6 of the Blood Strike damage. And 2 Icy Touches do a lot less then 1 OB, so you lose even more damage there. And your losing damage taking Butchery, Bladed Armor, and Death Rune Mastery vs. Necrosis Ravenous Dead and Blood Caked Blade. And you have lower Blood Plague uptime and you are clipping your Frost Fever. And you've pretty much eaten up all your free GCDs in the process, so less extra RP growth potential.

Its sub optimal DPS.

WimpySmurf · 07/20/09, 1:39 PM

I was curious if anyone had looked at 0/38/33 build that goes after ImpUP and uses DC for RP dump. I'm not sure how hard DC +UB would hit compared to FS. I was thinking you'd Glyph Dark Death, UB and OB. Which means you lose out 29% dmg done from BP & TS, but gain Perma Ghoul (assume 1/5 Desolation). I don't think it'll surpass a BP, OB heavy with FS for dump rotation, but was just curious.

Odii · 07/20/09, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by WimpySmurf

I was curious if anyone had looked at 0/38/33 build that goes after ImpUP and uses DC for RP dump. I'm not sure how hard DC +UB would hit compared to FS. I was thinking you'd Glyph Dark Death, UB and OB. Which means you lose out 29% dmg done from BP & TS, but gain Perma Ghoul (assume 1/5 Desolation). I don't think it'll surpass a BP, OB heavy with FS for dump rotation, but was just curious.

Your taking the Strike focused design of deep frost DW, and the spell focused design of Unholy DW, and your watering down both with this spec.

Edimasta · 07/21/09, 11:41 AM

I am willnig to risk an infraction or this but...

17 pages - could we please update the 1st posting to get an overview for builds / rotation and the current DPS? What is best, what is not?

It's really a bit frustrating searchin to 17 pages where most is just "blabla" and it's hard to read out the good postings

Thank you!

Fargom · 07/21/09, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Edimasta

I am willnig to risk an infraction or this but...

17 pages - could we please update the 1st posting to get an overview for builds / rotation and the current DPS? What is best, what is not?

It's really a bit frustrating searchin to 17 pages where most is just "blabla" and it's hard to read out the good postings

Thank you!

I've specifically asked in this thread for PM's or posts regarding builds for the OP, to date nobody has sent me a spec submission for the OP that comes anywhere close to the standards we strive for.

I'll say it again, If you have a spec you feel deserves to be on the OP, please either send me a PM, or post it with evidence. I'm not going to update the OP with untested or builds that have been tested on the targeting dummy for obvious reasons. In the absence of solid raid data the simulators are our best tool, we need to use it to make our case for why one build is superior to another.

We are closer than we were when we started, but at this point nobody has stepped out and said "This build, this priority/rotation, here is the simulator data to prove it." If someone thinks they are confident enough to state this, let me know. Until then, we should continue to work on individual pieces of the puzzle.

-Side note: Based on all available data it looks like OB heavy blood presence rotations are going to be superior, has anyone run the numbers assuming 100% crit on both hands with a FS via a KM proc? Nobody knows for sure if its going to be fixed, but I think its logical to at least test if it would be a game changer if it was a bug.

pintor · 07/21/09, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Fargom

-Side note: Based on all available data it looks like OB heavy blood presence rotations are going to be superior, has anyone run the numbers assuming 100% crit on both hands with a FS via a KM proc? Nobody knows for sure if its going to be fixed, but I think its logical to at least test if it would be a game changer if it was a bug.

The numbers I have run still show obliterate heavy rotations come out ahead in the case you mention, though I am not convinced of the spec and glyphs completely yet.

However, there is something to it in another sense which I have mentioned before. If KM only crits on the MH then your priority for a KM proc should be a rime-procced HB>FS, however if they fix the bug then once again FS will always be appropriate for a KM proc.

Astalion · 07/21/09, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by pintor

The numbers I have run still show obliterate heavy rotations come out ahead in the case you mention, though I am not convinced of the spec and glyphs completely yet.

However, there is something to it in another sense which I have mentioned before. If KM only crits on the MH then your priority for a KM proc should be a rime-procced HB>FS, however if they fix the bug then once again FS will always be appropriate for a KM proc.

My numbers suggest that KM always should be used for Rime procs if possible, mainly due to FS having a far higher crit chance (test run without KM/DC put FS at 52% crit and HB at 27% - note: that's including the T8 bonus and a relatively high amount of agility). HB should on average gain 4615 damage from using a Rime proc, while the benefit on an FS would be 2851 (using same gear as all my tests, math done on the abilities with KM/DC excluded, assuming KM/DC are meant to affect both main/off-hand FS).

@Spec post request: Been a bit lazy, got most of the post lined up in my head and hopefully I will get around to writing something (main focus would be on 3/51/17 and variants, including Glyph of Disease theory - could include some comparison to unholy specs, but I haven't been as in-depth in my research of those, and hence there might be some things I've missed that would improve the numbers there).

Foxx2405 · 07/21/09, 2:19 PM

I've seen a lot of variations on the frost / unholy spec, so far. Most of them come down to deciding where to put the last few points.

The specs that float around are:
3/53/15
0/53/18
3/51/17
2/51/18

The talents in question are:
- Merciless Combat (correct me if im wrong but this is where you take points from in a 51 frost build right ?)
- Subversion
- Blood Caked Blades

I'd like to say which is better, but i have no simulator and all i can go by are raw imaginative numbers that dont help anything if 2 talents are close. I can take an educated guess at some though.

Merciless Combat gives 12% more damage, 1/3th of the fight on abilities that do about 60% of your total dps (this is my guess, i have no clue what the raw numbers are that).
That would mean 7.2% dps increase for 1/3th of the fight or 2.4% dps for 2 points = 1.2% dps per point.

BCB, i can't really say anything about that. Although someone in this thread mentioned BCB being 5.6% of the total dps for him. That would mean 1.8% per point (sounds reasonable).
That would already dismiss the 3/53/15 build.

Subversion. The 9% extra crit on blood strike is worth about 7% more damage if you have 30% crit.
The 9% crit on obliterate is worth about 6% more damage, since obliterate already has a higher crit rate (mostly due to rime).
Very very raw self made up numbers, say obliterate will be 30% of our dps and blood strike 10%. That would mean a total dps increase of ( 0.3 * 0.06 + 0.1 * 0.07 ) = 0.025 = 2.5%
That would be 0.83% dps per point.

That would make subversion the worst. But my numbers are totally made up. Would be nice if someone with a simulator or with some actual PTR parses ( NON-DUMMY ) would adjust them.

That would promote the 0/54/18 build though.

-------

Another item we really need to get straightened is:
- Is blood subspec definitely inferior ?

My guts say yes as you trade Necrosis and BCB (apparently worth a solid 10%+ dps) for Bladed Armor and 5% crit (which is somewhat diminished due to frosts already high critrate)

EDIT: Just noted that the minimal amount of points in frost is 52 unless you're pulling out 1 point on an important talent.
Assuming you take IIT (we can discuss builds without IIT and glyph of diseases, but a lot of raiders are just expected to bring the raid buff), are you stuck with 52 points or can you take a point out of a talent ? (Most seem to vital to miss to me).

The builds would change slightly but the talents in question are still the same.

Fargom · 07/21/09, 2:27 PM

Originally Posted by Foxx2405

BCB, i can't really say anything about that. Although someone in this thread mentioned BCB being 5.6% of the total dps for him. That would mean 1.8% per point (sounds reasonable).
That would already dismiss the 3/53/15 build.

That's fairly accurate based on my 3.1.3 parses, BCB does 5-6% of my total damage on any given fight. One thing to remember is with the removal of normalization two things happen. First, fast weapons get a nerf in BCB damage, which honestly is no big deal since ToT builds are going to be Slow/Slow. The real gem is that Slow weapons are going to be receiving a buff, I can easily see BCB doing 6% or more of the total damage in 3.2, making it at or above 2% dps per point.

1h normalization is set at 2.4, so any weapon with a speed slower than that will produce more damage via BcB in 3.2.

@Foxx in general:

The issues you pointed out are (in my opinion) exactly what is holding folks back from doing quality spec posts. Most people can look at the frost tree and easily pick out the core talents, its the subspec that is the problem.

What we need is to find the per point dps value of each talent we can possibly get in the subspec, IE once all core frost talents are filled out. Its looking like they are going to be close enough that only math is going to be able to show the superior subspec choice.

To me this seems to be the only logical place to move from here, I'll start working on this myself after work, but anyone with strong math and simulator skills should really chime in.

Kyruski · 07/21/09, 2:38 PM

I mentioned this before and people agreed but then it died down. If we want to try and find the best build, we need to have some set stats that each build should be tested with. This will prevent any differentiating data based on stats. Some possibly Stats to use are:

Stat set 1:

STR: 1700
AGI: 250
CRIT:730
HIT: 300
HASTE: 175
EXP: 175
ArP: 230
ARMOR: 14300
AP: 600

Stat set 2:

STR: 1900
AGI: 200
CRIT:770
HIT: 270
HASTE: 175
EXP: 225
ArP: 300
ARMOR: 14300
AP: 500

Stat set 3:

STR: 1800
AGI: 225
CRIT:670
HIT: 365
HASTE: 300
EXP: 125
ArP: 250
ARMOR: 14300
AP: 500

Some standard for stats would be good. When posting a spec, it would also be beneficial if Stat weights were posted as well as the DPS/EPAP. How you do this is when it calculates the EPAP of AP, you take the difference between the DPS of the Dry Run and the Attack Power Run, aka Attack Power Run - Dry Run = ????. This should give you the DPS per amount of AP you have the EP calc run. If you don't change any of the EP Calc settings, it should be normally 50. You then take the DPS difference and divide that by the EP change being used, i.e. ????/50 = DPS/EPAP. This will help when determining the Scaling of a build.

REMINDER - These are just suggested guidelines, the stat idea hasn't been set in stone, but the EPAP + DPS/EPAP is very helpful.

As for viable builds, I'll start doing some sims for 3/51/15+2 builds, most likely something like 3/53/15 for testing.

Astalion · 07/21/09, 2:44 PM

@Foxx: My testing suggest KM is the better talent to pull points from. My simulations show Subversion to be a lot stronger than BCB, and 5.6% damage from BCB sounds way over the top compared to my testing (I'm getting just below 2% for 3 points I think).

On the topic of subspecs Epidemic is also a very strong point for consideration, especially as it opens up Glyph of Disease (which my most recent numbers show to be ~330 dps higher than Glyph of BS, of course some people will need to supply IIT, so I guess we'll need two different "top-performing" frost specs at the very least). Anyway, I'll see about running some tests for individual talents as well.

Odii · 07/21/09, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by Astalion

My numbers suggest that KM always should be used for Rime procs if possible, mainly due to FS having a far higher crit chance (test run without KM/DC put FS at 52% crit and HB at 27% - note: that's including the T8 bonus and a relatively high amount of agility). HB should on average gain 4615 damage from using a Rime proc, while the benefit on an FS would be 2851 (using same gear as all my tests, math done on the abilities with KM/DC excluded, assuming KM/DC are meant to affect both main/off-hand FS).

Its not quite that simple.

First you need to compare 100% crit HB vs 100% crit FS mianhand +Base crit rate off hand, and come up with which is more damage.

If you are using a 4 OB, 4ish FS, Blood Strike Glyph rotation, then you only want to use Rime procs when you have KM. If KM HB is more damage then KM Frost Strike, then you should use HB every time Rime and KM are up at the same time. If KM FS is more damage, then you only want to use HB when you have Rime, KM and if you have low* RP.

If you are using 5 OB 4ish FS, 1ish HB with Glyph of Disease, then you cant really afford to be very cute with Rime procs, use em when you get em. In that case, you should only delay using a Rime HB if you dont have KM and you do have a high* amount of RP built up.

*What constitutes high and low RP is an interesting question, that is a good deal harder to figure out.

Foxx2405 · 07/21/09, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by Astalion

@Foxx: My testing suggest KM is the better talent to pull points from. My simulations show Subversion to be a lot stronger than BCB, and 5.6% damage from BCB sounds way over the top compared to my testing (I'm getting just below 2% for 3 points I think).

Wow that sounds really low. Are you sure its counting the offhand as well ?

With my 2H unholy build BCB usually is about 3.5% of my dps.

Basically BCB (correct me if im wrong here) is a 50% weapon damage strike every other 3 auto attacks (average).
So basically its 1/6th of your auto attack as extra damage.

If its less than 2% your white dps is less than 12%. Sounds a bit low. (Or is there an internal CD? I remember something of that kind.)

If your sim is right though, we might just as well skip BCB because 0.7% dps per point is a waste

Astalion · 07/21/09, 3:37 PM

@Foxx: My numbers were a bit outdated (might have been faulty notes as well, possibly just 2/3 BCB), but I rechecked the code and new tests show BCB at about 2.45% of the total damage with 3p.
@Odii: Yeah, I've only looked into the details a little bit, but there should quite often be times when you don't risk overcapping RP by using Rime, and generally you'll have time to wait a few GCDs before using the Rime proc if you don't have KM up at the time (looking at the Disease rotation at least). I'll see if I can get some better numbers for RP thresholds tho-