DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand - Page 3

Fargom · 06/25/09, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by concept84

While I agree this needs to be tested again, and admittedly would rather use Death Coil, we have to remember back in the old DW days Frost Strike beat out Death Coil by a very large margin, and I just don't feel a 30% DoT can make up for that, especially with the increased runic power generation from OB with CoTG and Dirge, plus the FS Glyph lowering its cost.

Also remember that Frost Strike hit harder than Death Coil before when Death Coil was fully buffed by Impurity at 25% and Frost Strike was hitting based solely off the Main Hand Weapon's damage.

The main factors I was taking into account are that the glyph of dark death didn't exist back then, and the 30% dot is a huge new mechanic. Either way, we both agree this needs testing, I'll put in some time on it when I get home from work. My guess is that FS will turn out to be superior for any build deep enough to grab it, but in an effort to play by my own rules in this thread I want to test it.

Aatis · 06/25/09, 6:05 PM

I'm on the PTR right now testing the effects of razorice/lichbane on mainhand/offhand weapons but the results are extremely peculiar, to the point that it doesn't appear to matter which weapon you apply razorice to at all.

I'm running razorice on [Serilas, Blood Blade of Invar One-Arm] and Lichbane on [Void Sabre].

With Serilas in my mainhand, both lichbane and Razorice are showing proc damage from 7-14, averaging 10, during this time I had popped my wrathstone and had greatness procced, and the max proc damage never went outside this area, while my maximum white HIT on the dummy was 2008 (2% = 40 damage), crit of 3646 (2% = 73 damage)

When I switch Void Sabre to my mainhand, both runeforges are dealing 4-8 damage, averaging 6 per swing.

Equipped a [Cutlass] in my mainhand, razorice on Void Sabre in my offhand and the damage from razorice was 1 per swing.

The 2% damage done by both of these runeforges is based entirely off the base weapon damage of your mainhand weapon, regardless of which weapon is enchanted, attack power is currently completely ignored for the calculation.

Kyruski · 06/25/09, 6:31 PM

EDIT: Math all messed up for now, disregard until later.

♦ Darkside · 06/25/09, 6:34 PM

Originally Posted by Kyruski

Well if you want to compare BS vs. IT with Death runes, An IT with the Glyph and CotG produces 30RP. That's .9375 FS's per IT. With calculations from before:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't IT produce Base+Glyph+CotG = 10+10+5 = 25 RP?

AtheistGod · 06/25/09, 6:35 PM

Originally Posted by Kyruski

Well if you want to compare BS vs. IT with Death runes, An IT with the Glyph and CotG produces 30RP. That's .9375 FS's per IT. With calculations from before:

3431.65*.9375 = 3217.171875

So FS alone already beats the "un-nerfed" BS. FS + IT should easily beat BS unless IT somehow heals the mob instead. The problem is Fitting this all into a rotation.

You are saying .9375 of 2 FS > 2 BS. not that .9375 of 1 FS > 2 BS.

Darkside: The comparison is 2 IT vs 2 BS. It's 50 RP vs 20 RP so that's where the 30/32 of a FS comes from.

Kyruski · 06/25/09, 6:59 PM

Alright, let's try this again, I think i fixed all the problems.

Well if you want to compare BS vs. IT with Death runes, An IT with the Glyph and CotG produces 25RP. 2 BS Produces 20RP while 2 IT Produces 50RP. So 2 IT produces 30RP more than 2 BS. That's .78125 FS's per 2 IT. With calculations from before:

Originally Posted by Calculations

BS: ((860*.71)+(2081*.29))*2 = 2428.18

FS: ((939*.425)+(2290*.575))*2 = 3431.65.

3431.65*.9375 = 3217.171875 FS damage for the combined RP Gen from 2 ITs
(2428.18*2)-3217.171875 = 1639.188125

So for IT to be a better Dump than BS, you have to have 2 IT > 1639.188125. That comes out to 819.5940625 each IT must do. I did 100 ITs on the Test dummy again, same exact conditions. Here are the Results:

IT Crit: Avg = 2367, % = 22%
IT Non-Crit: Avg = 1182, % = 78%
IT Expected Avg Damage = (1182*.78)+(2367*.22) = 1442.7

So IT+FS should be more than BS. The problem is you also have to find the time to fit the GCDs in while in BP. Hopefully my math is all correct this time.

Sakuratei · 06/25/09, 7:14 PM

Originally Posted by Aezoc

..Also, I believe the better test is whether 2x BS > 2x IT + FS, as that's currently the ideal way to spend those death runes as frost. I guess with the FS nerfs the value of 2x IT + FS might need to be re-evaluated compared to Ob, however..

Not to mention that all comparisons in the past were based on striking only with the mainhand. For 2H frost currently, those Death runes are used for an extra Obliterate, will Threat of Thassarian make Obliterate a viable use for them even for DW?

Melchior · 06/25/09, 7:18 PM

Originally Posted by Sakuratei

Not to mention that all comparisons in the past were based on striking only with the mainhand. For 2H frost currently, those Death runes are used for an extra Obliterate, will Threat of Thassarian make Obliterate a viable use for them even for DW?

Also, while I wait for more testing on the concern that Melchior had about Offhand weapon not being used at all, could it be that Threat of Thassarian takes the Main strike's formula, recalculates all the random numbers to create an identical strike and then halves it because it is with the offhand (or multiplies it with .575, since we have NoCS).

The tooltip says it uses the offhand for an additional strike, but it also says the strike will hit for roughly half the damage of the main strike. The second statement would only be true as long as two weapons with equal weapon damage range were equipped. Then again, it's not the first time Blizzard screws up tooltips.

Nah it's definitely hitting with the OH, I screwed up my own testing that time.

♦ Darkside · 06/25/09, 7:21 PM

Originally Posted by Kyruski

So IT+FS should be more than BS. The problem is you also have to find the time to fit the GCDs in while in BP. Hopefully my math is all correct this time.

Like 2h frost, this is a strong indicator that it may be a better idea to be in Unholy Presence than Blood Presence. As I've demonstrated in the Frost thread (Frozen Blows -- Frost DPS (Updated 06.11.09)) UP beats out BP assuming that you have less than 23% downtime in your cycles. Assuming that DW will use the same rotations as 2h Frost does (without 6xIT) this should hardly be an issue, especially if any of the fights involve any measurable amount of downtime/movement.

Finally, as an added bonus, UP provides greater frequency of KM procs.

PristineChaos · 06/25/09, 7:28 PM

Originally Posted by Kyruski

So IT+FS should be more than BS. The problem is you also have to find the time to fit the GCDs in while in BP.

We could always OB on F/U runes while Blood Plague is up and 2xIT on the Death Runes and let Blood Plague fall off and dump FS while Frost Fever is up since FS does not really gain anything from Blood Plague. Once RP is depleted we could IT>PS> and resume Obliterating.

Question is, assuming 15% extra damage and crits on Blood Plague would it be a loss of dps to let it fall off during the FS dump.

♦ Darkside · 06/25/09, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by PristineChaos

Question is, assuming 15% extra damage and crits on Blood Plague would it be a loss of dps to let it fall off during the FS dump.

Almost certainly. Unless it's going to put you over the RP cap, there is no reason whatsoever to delay your reapplication of diseases. You can always dump the RP at a later time.

Fargom · 06/25/09, 7:35 PM

Originally Posted by Darkside

Finally, as an added bonus, UP provides greater frequency of KM procs.

Good point, also UP provides the movement speed buff, which we would otherwise have to get via boots.

Considering the evidence in the 2h frost thread, I'm going to suggest that we attempt to use UP if possible, the extra KM procs and movement speed are enough to make UP the presence of choice. At this point, it would have to be a fairly strong argument for BP to be considered.

concept84 · 06/25/09, 8:21 PM

Originally Posted by Fargom

Good point, also UP provides the movement speed buff, which we would otherwise have to get via boots.

Considering the evidence in the 2h frost thread, I'm going to suggest that we attempt to use UP if possible, the extra KM procs and movement speed are enough to make UP the presence of choice. At this point, it would have to be a fairly strong argument for BP to be considered.

I think UP vs BP will largely depend on our rotations; whether we can fill the extra GCDs or not. With a standard OB spam rotation I find it really hard to believe UP will outweigh BP, however if it once again comes down to maximizing runic power for Frost Strikes then surely UP will take the cake.

Aezoc · 06/25/09, 8:46 PM

Originally Posted by concept84

I think UP vs BP will largely depend on our rotations; whether we can fill the extra GCDs or not. With a standard OB spam rotation I find it really hard to believe UP will outweigh BP, however if it once again comes down to maximizing runic power for Frost Strikes then surely UP will take the cake.

I guess I'm confused why this is an open question - diseases will tick for 15% more now, and BS disease scaling is improved. Because of this, the single disease BP rotation is clearly worse than double diseases (they were roughly equal prior to this), and double disease frost rotations have always been in UP. Nothing in 3.2 looks to change frost RP generation, so I don't see any reason to even consider double disease BP being feasible.

concept84 · 06/25/09, 9:46 PM

Originally Posted by Aezoc

I guess I'm confused why this is an open question - diseases will tick for 15% more now, and BS disease scaling is improved. Because of this, the single disease BP rotation is clearly worse than double diseases (they were roughly equal prior to this), and double disease frost rotations have always been in UP. Nothing in 3.2 looks to change frost RP generation, so I don't see any reason to even consider double disease BP being feasible.

I agree that single disease rotations will fail. That is not what I was referring to.

I guess my mind reverts back to the 0/32/39 days where a 14-GCD (possible due to haste and lots of spells) rotation was pulled off in BP, rather than focusing on current 2h frost spec rotations.

I just don't see how a rotation like:

PS-IT-OB-BS-BS-Dump
OB-OB-OB-Dump

would be better run in Unholy Presence for the DW builds we've being seeing pop up.

Lets assume glyphs are FS/OB/IT (just for max RP), and the Dirge was taken. This rotation generates 160 RP, which is exactly enough for 5 Frost Strikes. That's only 13 GCDs, which is easily possible in Blood Presence. The downside would be no room for Rime procs, but if in fact a build like 0/44/27 surfaces to the top HB won't even be part of it.

If our top DW spec only slightly deviates from the top current 2h Frost spec then I do agree with you, the same UP rotations should be best, however so much is changing in 3.2 across the board, I think we need to think further out of the box and keep all options open.