I have already included a parse from Live that shows contributions from BcB to be 5.3 percent on a non-gimmick single target Patchwerk-esque fight while DW.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Your testing appears flawed, how are you trying to measure BcB contributions? You should not be using dummy testing for anything other than rotations, especially when you are posting data to this thread. You confuse the audience.

Nah he is using simulator testing.

If 5.3% is your contribution on live then 2.45 sounds reasonable on PTR, afterall:

- You're unholy DW, due to 3th disease your BCB does more damage.
- You use a fast offhand, due to BCB being normalized it should do more damage currently with fast weapons (or fast offhand at least) than it will in 3.2 with slow weapons.

@Astalion:
2.45% sounds a bit more reasonable, still somewhat shocked its that low. I really hoped for some good synergy.

But i guess what we really need to do now is make a good overview of the dps% per talent point. That should allow us to build up a final spec, or specs if more are viable.

PS.
What kind of simulators are you using ?
Public simulators / spreadsheets. Or selfmade ones ?

My question is in the 3/51/17 builds, or the variations where we are trying to find 2 points to cut from the build, is it possible to drop 2 points from Black Ice? Seems like BcB is still running about 1.2-1.8% DPS per point, Merciless Combat is a 12% increase for 35% of a fight on about 70% of your damage[IT+FS+HB+OB], so 1.47% per point, and then each point in black ice is 2% increase in (I lost most of my parse screenshots when i reinstalled stupid PTR) [FS + FF + BP + IT], so to match merciless combat or bcb per point those 4 abilities combined need to be 73.5% of your overall damage? Or am I doing the math totally wrong here.

@xtremers: While Black Ice isn't an incredibly strong talent, it still seems to be stronger than Killing Machine (might be able to push the value of the latter up slightly by more intelligent usage, but I doubt it'll be enough). Edit: Thanks Kyruski, another thing to correct for the simulations then.

@Foxx: I'm using a (self-)modified version of Kahorie's, I think it's slightly more accurate/up to date, but I haven't checked if he did any unannounced bugfixes.
Anyway, my autoattack numbers seem to be generally quite low for a DW build (~20% white damage), but compared to Kahorie's simulator I fixed a bug that would apply TS bonus damage to autoattacks, which would make a fairly large diffference compared to the numbers others are getting.

Your parse is flawed. You were not using a heavy frost build and white melee makes up 30% of your damage. Obviously BCB is going to be a higher percentage of your damage if you are using a build that favors white melee hits. You arnt even using heavy hitting attacks like Obliterate that would suck up more of the percentage of damage for that fight.

Show me a parse of any of ?/51/? with a heavy obliterate rotation and get BCB that high and then you will have something. For me BCB always has a lower percentage of damage than necrosis and necrosis normally comes in at 4.1-3%.

Edit: He was posting his heavy unholy BCB damage in response to discussion about frost BCB damage. These are conflicting ideas. His post proves nothing about how well BCB preforms for a heavy frost build.

The parse isn't "flawed" at all, its normal for 0/17/54. Remember everyone, this is a 3.2. DW thread, not specifically a frost DW thread.

The important thing to realize is we actually have two competitive builds. Obviously, the "Core" frost build is going to be good, however, 0/17/54 DC spam is still holding up quite well on the simulator. Its clear that the deep frost build is the shiny new car, most people are focusing on it, and rightly so but we need to remember that it isn't the only build that needs to be scrutinized.

Make sure when discussing DPS value per point, you keep it clear which deep build you are refering to, frost or unholy.

My question is why we are discussing the DW Unholy build at all. The percentage of people who just want to DW regardless of whether or not it is ideal or not is slim when you're referring to the people who actually read this thread. The fact that Frost DW is > than Frost 2H come 3.2 is the reason that so much theorycrafting is going into it considering many guilds still rely on Imp Icy Touch for their haste buff because it's more reliable and not as range prohibited or micro managed like Windfury in movement heavy fights.

So even if DW Unholy ends up beating out DW Frost from a pure DPS standpoint, there's no reason to use DW Unholy being that 2H Unholy WILL be higher still and more viable, so if anything the DW Unholy builds/theorycrafting should be completely isolated to their own thread. If people are seriously just stuck on Dual Weilding without regards to bringing any specific buff or putting out higher DPS using either of the 2H trees then why are you even theorycrafting.

@ Travaggie

This will remain a thread to discuss the best possible builds for DW. Without resorting to arguing, I'll simply say that several of your notions regarding unholy DW are categorically false. The OP of this thread will be updated in due time to reflect any DW build that can prove itself to be competitive, regardless of which tree the build is heavily invested in.

The idea that we should disregard unholy DW even if it does more dps than frost DW for any reason is absurd. There are just as many guilds that rely on the deathknight to bring Ebon Plaguebringer as Imp Icy touch. I don't know about you, but I feel the OP should have as much diversity as possible, while still only including quality, competitive PVE specs.

All I said about DW unholy is that is is inferior in pure DPS to 2H Unholy, which is true. My point is that it makes no sense to compare Frost DW to Unholy DW in the first place for practical raiding purposes if the end goal is to find the most OPTIMAL and VIABLE build, considering they bring different buffs. There is no Frost DW thread and there is a DW Unholy thread, so naturally people will and are using this thread to speculate the DW Frost builds and to assume people are always comparing or even taking into consideration the Unholy suboptimal counterpart is just dumb. So as I said, if you're only goal is to DW regardless of viability or optimal raid DPS, then continue to debate this argument.

Edit: To clarify, I don't see an issue in discussing the two builds seperately, although I personally don't see the reason behind DW Unholy to begin with. The post I was responding to was COMPARING as well as assuming that people would know he was referring to Unholy DW without siting it, which there just is no way to compare the two logically, based on what I wrote above.

On a related/slightly unrelated topic, I'm curious to see if anyone has come up with AEP values, or if anyone actually knows how to do this.

I haven't really tried to sit down and figure it out.

I'm going to go 15/53/3, personally. Don't care if it's the maximum DPS. I enjoy how it plays, and the DPS it puts out is more than substantial for me. So, how do I figure out what the AEP values are for it? And, if someone already has, can you post them for that spec?

People are saying that DW unholy is inferior to 2h unholy in 3.2, as if it's a well-known fact. The 2h unholy build is taking a SS nerf (0/17/54 doesn't use it), and the new UB should benefit DW unholy more than 2h, since it throws out considerably more DCs. I don't believe anyone has done any real math or sims comparing the two, which would be a lot more useful than just saying we shouldn't discuss DW unholy.