This is where you are confused. the only part of the BcB calculation that is changing is the AP normalization. a weapon with 2.6 speed would most certainly do more damage in 3.2. Nothing else in the equation changes, except a 2.4 modifier goes to a 2.6. How can you state that the result isn't more damage?

You are contradicting yourself in your own post, you state that Slow weapons are getting a small buff, but then you state that slow weapons won't do more damage via BcB in 3.2.

If the main hand BCB strike is 2.7 percent of my total dps with a 2.4 AP coefficient, and that is going up to 2.6, the result will be larger than 2.7% assuming all other factors remain equal. (Which they do, because nothing is changing except the normalization being removed.)

Bonus damage multipliers for TS or RoR are calculated in MainStat.vb (StandardPhysicalDamageMultiplier) and then used in the main hand damage code.

Wont do more damage than fast weapons i mean. You keep pulling my quotes out of context. I explained in the 2 lines before that, that the AP contirbution changes so both slow and fast will do equal BCB damage.

Let me rephrase it in an easy to get setup:

Live: Fast does more damage, slow does less damage
PTR: Both do equal damage, as BCB unnormalized is a direct portion of your white dps (which is equal if you use same dps weapons, regardless of speed)

Live: Unholy uses Slow/Fast and thus uses the fast offhand to gain benefit out of BCB. You claim its only 0.2% but I put question marks at that, as simple math shows that faster weapons gain about 60% more benefit out of BCB than slow weapons do.

There is no real frost DW build, but assume it existed and assume it would use slow / slow for whatever reason; this is the "hypotetical frost dw build". If its easier, imagine this as a situation where BCB wasn't normalized. They would gain less benefit from BCB than with a fast weapon.

PTR: Unholy can either use Slow/Fast or Slow/Slow, in regards to BCB it doesn't matter one bit anymore because either will perform the exact same DPS (One of the 2 can still be preferred for other reasons, like boosting PPM with slow/slow).
Technically Unholy DW loses some of the benefit it used to gain out of BCB, after all their "fast weapon BCB benefit" has been terminated.

The "hypothetical frost DW build" using slow/slow, gets a small buff because slower weapons no longer suffer under the normalization. The hypotetical build would gain some out of BCB in 3.2.

Unless i'm missing something really obvious this is the situation, regarding BCB (AND BCB ONLY !):

- Fast weapons were better
- Slow weapons were worse

- Fast weapons get nerfed
- Slow weapons get buffed

- Slow and Fast weapons are now equally good

- Builds that used slow/fast; will gain less out of BCB after the patch (Unholy DW)
- Builds that used slow/slow, will gain more out of BCB (No build on live really, but BCB became more attractive for the frost DW build)

If you disagree with any point of this, let me know which one and ill explain my vision on it.

So what you are saying is that you don't think the 2.4 to 2.6 AP modifier change on both hands is enough to override the .2% extra dps that the fast offhand did in 3.2?

Do you have any calculations on this? As you state, the weapon damage part is small, its the AP contribution and number of diseases that play the major role in total damage. Changing the AP modifier from 2.4 to 2.6 (or 2.7) on both hands should easily be more than .2% overall BCB damage.


-Remember, there is no reason to even consider a fast weapon in 3.2. Everyone should be using slow/slow.

Well hold on, builds like 0/18/53 and 0/17/54 Could use Fast OH since it won't really gain anything from being slow. It is pretty much a stat stick.

I think it's a lot more simple than this exchange has made it seem, and on many portions you are both agreeing without realizing it. On live, fast makes sense because you're hitting with "extra" AP. In 3.2, BCB will function just like (half) a white hit, thus, weapon speed does not matter for the talent. Bottom line: Slow/Slow for Frost. Moving on!!!

Its possible that for your given circumstance the fast weapon might be better (IE Item level), but with normalization being removed from BCB, slow will be the desirable speed for both hands. The only time the offhand is a statstick would be in the case of no ToT and no BCB. Which isnt a likely build.

@ halcor:

As noted in the first part of the BCB debate you are talking about, we are discussing Unholy DW's BCB damage. We are not debating Frost's BCB damage.

Well the AP modifier change on main hand indeed closens the gap, i forgot about that.

But offhand modifier does NOT offset for the extra dps fast used to provide.
Also i still doubt your 0.2%.

But i can do some numbers if you want, prove myself wrong in the process perhaps.

-----

AP: 5000
Weapons:
Slow: [Serilas, Blood Blade of Invar One-Arm]
Fast: [Remorse]

BCB doesn't crit. Ill leave out any modifiers as they are equal for everything.
I'm gonna adjust it slightly so the dps is the same, ill use 178.8 dps.

Main hand (pre-normalzation change):
178.8 * 2.6 + ( 5000 / 14 * 2.4) = 1322 damage per BCB strike
BCB procs 3 times every 10 hits (= 3 hits every 26 seconds) for 62.5% damage.

1322 * 3 / 26 * 0.625 = 95.34 dps

Off hand (pre-normalization change):
0.575 * (178.8 * 1.5 + ( 5000 / 14 * 2.4)) = 647 damage per BCB strike
BCB procs 3 times every 10 hits (= 3 hits every 15 seconds) for 62.5% damage.

647 * 3 / 15 * 0.625 = 80.88 dps

Total = 176.22 dps

------


Main hand (post-normalzation change):
178.8 * 2.6 + ( 5000 / 14 * 2.6) = 1391 damage per BCB strike
BCB procs 3 times every 10 hits (= 3 hits every 26 seconds) for 62.5% damage.

1391 * 3 / 26 * 0.625 = 100.34 dps

Off hand (post-normalization change):
0.575 * (178.8 * 1.5 + ( 5000 / 14 * 1.5)) = 462.25 damage per BCB strike
BCB procs 3 times every 10 hits (= 3 hits every 15 seconds) for 62.5% damage.

462.25 * 3 / 15 * 0.625 = 57.78 dps

Slow off hand (post-normalization change):
0.575 * (178.8 * 2.6 + ( 5000 / 14 * 2.6)) = 799.83 damage per BCB strike
BCB procs 3 times every 10 hits (= 3 hits every 26 seconds) for 62.5% damage.

799.83 * 3 / 26 * 0.625 = 57.68 dps

Total = 158.12 dps



-----------

Therefor unholy DW will GAIN LESS from BCB after the normalization change.
And as you can see using slow or fast weapons matters nothing in regards to BCB. in this case fast is still slightly better even.

If there is no more reason not to use fast weapons, it does not lie in BCB.

For frost DW the reason is obvious: Offhand strikes

For Unholy DW the only reason i can think of right now is that slower weapons have a higher PPM proc chance.
But I doubt the impact is very big, therefor i suggest that the guideline for unholy should be changed to:

- Slow main hand + Highest dps offhand of any speed.

EDIT: Or as above suggested, best stat-stick

That's absolutely untrue, unless everyone involved in the debate on the previous pages, including myself is completely off base.

The only reason a fast weapon can do anywhere near the BCB dps of a slow weapon currently is due to normalization. The weapon damage portion of the equation is tiny, the AP Coefficent is what makes the difference. In 3.1.3 every 1 hander was set at 2.4. In 3.2. a fast weapon would be set at 1.5 or 1.6, where a slow weapon would be allowed to gain its entire 2.6 or 2.7 benefit from AP.

Are you sure you have looked into how this works? I don't think everyone is offbase.

The keypoint you forget is that BCB is a set percentage proc.

Fast weapons hit for way less, but proc BCB way more often. I guess that's where you're going off. If not you would be 100% right.

Excuses to the people who don't care for this somewhat heated debate. It's quite important everyone is on the same line here if we want to get stuff straightened out though.

I must have forgotten about the flat proc chance, however, some of my past parses don't seem to match up 100% with the expected damage. Overall though, I think your math is correct.

I woulden't consider this a heated debate, this is exactly how each mechanic should be looked at. As long as everyone keeps it civil we are going to end up with a great thread here. I'm going to link your post above in the edit of the OP I do tonight explaining new BCB mechanics.

RE: Glyph of disease:

If the glyph of disease ends up being that good remind me to buy our 100% attendance enhancement shaman a beer at blizzcon. All jokes aside, it does seem a silly design if skipping the major raidbuff for that spec produces so much extra dps. If anyone feels they can correctly explain the build that uses the disease glyph, please send me a detailed PM. I'd love to get it on the possible spec list for the OP edit tonight.