Exactly - that's what we should be doing. We're not generating any more RP than before, I don't think... it's just easy to get mixed up when you're constantly watching your procs. However, it's been argued that, for instance, if KM procs before your OB-OB-OB second half of the rotation, you should wait for a Rime proc, then dump. I think in the long run, that's probably a dps loss.
From all the sims I have done, it appears using FF>BP>KMrime>KMFS>OB>BS>FS>Rime is essentially identical to just dumping all FS's at the end.
I used DWstatset2, 0-53-18 for my tests, so that might change when weapons become more powerfull.
Regarding Killing Machine: I recommend moving away from a true priority, and to a rotation for single target DPS, and just evenly spacing KMs throughout it. If you have Rime and KM up leading into a FS GCD, use Howling Blast, but don't bend over backwards for it.
KM Rime is a bit more DPS then KM Frost Strike, but not so much that its worth creating inefficiencies in other areas simply to accommodate KM Rime.
Originally Posted by Sakuratei
The only time I have problems with RP swamping is if I get a lot of KMRimes in a short period of time. Although, RP swamp isn't necessarily a super bad thing, it lets us interrupt and use defensive CD's like AMS or IBF without blowing the rotation.
If it really bothers you that much, I guess you could put FS above BS in priority.
RP swamping looks like its going to occur in real situations, because of how FS is an ability you use "after" the Rp generating abilties in the priority. The reason is because any time you have an interrupt, you create a situation where your runes are resetting. If this occurs right after a rp dump, then the balance of RP used to RP consumed tends toward 0. If you interupt right after a rune ability though, time spent not using GCDs is going to allow your runes to refresh. Then, your RP generation is not being effected, but your RP consumption is being reduced.
To make it clearer, if I use RP abilities to generate 64 RP, then dump 64 RP. Balance of 0. If you interrupt when the balance is 0, when you re-engage the fight you simply go back to generating 64 RP before consuming it. No effect. But if you interupt at 64, your going to generate all the way up to 128 RP, then only go down to 64.
Add on that if you are replacing FS's with Rimes when KM is up, your +37 RP from where youd be if you hadn't. Since the 12 GCD cycle we have been simulating is only 3 RP shy of sustainably even without Rime, its easy to see that if you factor KM Rime in you are going to flood from that too.
- As for UP, its unlikely to work out as a DPS gain. It requires a LOT more RP then you really are generating on a consistent basis to even break even. Not impossible mind you, but if your not spending the fight nearly maxed out the whole time, chances are you arent going to benefit from UP. The math for this is earlier in the thread, Astallion and I discuss it.
But there does seem to be more RP then you need floating around during single target DPS, so I wont rule UP out. As for using BP, dont worry about wasted RP or Rime procs. If you had been following this discussion, its a consideration that we've kept in mind. Its just your better off letting it go to waste. Its out of trying to get a handle on this waste that the Glyph of Disease and the Glyph of Howling Blast rotations were born, it was trying to get the most mileage out of the wasted resources.
@Astallion: You got your fork of the simulator to simulate the Glyph of Howling Blast rotation, but could you run a situation in a no deficit RP environment (something like 3 extra points in butchery)? Id be interested to see the results.
- As for UP, its unlikely to work out as a DPS gain. It requires a LOT more RP then you really are generating on a consistent basis to even break even. Not impossible mind you, but if your not spending the fight nearly maxed out the whole time, chances are you arent going to benefit from UP. The math for this is earlier in the thread, Astallion and I discuss it.
But there does seem to be more RP then you need floating around during single target DPS, so I wont rule UP out. As for using BP, dont worry about wasted RP or Rime procs. If you had been following this discussion, its a consideration that we've kept in mind. Its just your better off letting it go to waste. Its out of trying to get a handle on this waste that the Glyph of Disease and the Glyph of Howling Blast rotations were born, it was trying to get the most mileage out of the wasted resources.
I think this is part of the reason I trend towards UP, in that I can flush all of the incoming resources and have better control over when to fire Rime/KM. That and the movement speed which I'm sure will continue to be a large factor in almost all raid encounters as we go forward, as it's something they continue to emphasize in WotLK raids.
To be fair, even the sims show both presences pretty close to each other (surely due to how many potential GCDs the build has to spend) so I think this may play out to be a YMMV decision except in the most extreme circumstances (i.e. another true Patchwork encounter).
Edit - One other thing I was thinking about earlier today was whether FC's uptime varies much depending on which slot it occupies. If the uptime isn't affected by being in the OH, it seems like RI would make more sense to run on the main hand weapon, even if it a minimal gain.
Edit - One other thing I was thinking about earlier today was whether FC's uptime varies much depending on which slot it occupies. If the uptime isn't affected by being in the OH, it seems like RI would make more sense to run on the main hand weapon, even if it a minimal gain.
I don't think anyone has bothered to test if one hand or the other gives more uptime, but we did prove that regardless of what hand has RI (or Cinderglacier) the extra 2% weapon damage is based off of the main hand. However, this extra damage isn't effected by any bonus, and is fairly insignificant.
Is there any particular reason for that IT glyph in OP, in 53/18 spec? It's not like IT is used for anything other than putting up a disease. From what I've noticed, it would help personal dps to put a Glyph of Disease in that slot. As long as there is an Enh shaman in the raid, it will most likely be a good choice. Or am I missing something?
Is there any particular reason for that IT glyph in OP, in 53/18 spec? It's not like IT is used for anything other than putting up a disease. From what I've noticed, it would help personal dps to put a Glyph of Disease in that slot. As long as there is an Enh shaman in the raid, it will most likely be a good choice. Or am I missing something?
disease won't refresh IIT so it would make 6 points or so a complete waste.
I don't think anyone has bothered to test if one hand or the other gives more uptime, but we did prove that regardless of what hand has RI (or Cinderglacier) the extra 2% weapon damage is based off of the main hand. However, this extra damage isn't effected by any bonus, and is fairly insignificant.
This is true, as the 2% damage does not add up to much. It's an increase, but I believe the rune enchant overall would be more effective for those in UP assuming that the player cannot stay on the boss for a prolonged, if not infinite period of time. Assuming it takes longer in BP (based on RNG) for the player to put a full stacking debuff from RI on the target than it does in UP, it becomes negligible if the player never has to move away from the current target and let the stack fall off.
I almost want to try CG out and see how it fares in comparison assuming it can be combined with HB more often than not, but I have to assume it will still yield lower results.
@Manveru: I would be more inclined to ask whether Chill of The Grave is appropriate for the 0/53/18 spec in the OP. Correct me if I'm wrong here but with the original Glyphs of IT, OB and FS and the current 0/53/18 spec into CotG you're generating 80RP by the end of the first rotation. 16RP of which you're carrying over into the next rotation after two Frost Strikes.
With three more OBs, you're generating another 75RP minus two more FSs thrown in, you end up with an extra 27RP after a full round of rotations.
IT,PS,OB,BS,BS = 80RP - 64RP = 16RP carried over
OB,OB,OB = 75RP - 64RP = 11RP carried over
16RP + 11RP = 27RP (Unused RP)
If you take the two points out of CotG and put them into, say Deatchill and UA I think you're better off.
Without CotG:
IT,PS,OB,BS,BS = 70RP - 64RP = 6RP carried over
OB,OB,OB = 60RP + 6RP(carried over) = 66RP allowing you exactly two more FSs with only 2RP left over.
Plus, now you can blow UA and Deatchill together every 2 minutes.
How I handled Rime/KM is probably part of my problem. I would hold KM procs hoping for a Rime unless I had just used all of my FU and D runes on Oblit, then I would go ahead and use KM on FS.
As I get used to the rotation I see my DPS getting better, so hopefully I'll see my RP use get better in the same way.
IT -> 10 (+10 if glyphed)
PS -> 10
OB -> 15
BS -> 10
BS -> 10
===========
55 RP (65 RP)
OB -> 15
OB -> 15
OB -> 15
=========
45 RP
CotG affects 5 abilities in that rotation.
So with 0/2 CotG you carry over 65+45=110 - 3*32 = 14 RP per rotation.
If you had 1/2 CotG 110+ 5*2.5 = 122 - 3*32 = 26 RP
With 2/2 CotG you get enough for the 4th FS, and carry over 7 RP.
If you went w/o the IT Glyph and 0/2 CotG then you're looking only have 4 extra RP per rotation and doing 11 skills per 20s, which leaves at least 1 GCD for Rime. This get's you to the same number of skills per 20s that using the Glyph of Disease does, but it's doing 4 FS on most rotations (2/2 CotG but minus 10 RP from IT Glyph means you carry over 29RP on first rotation, but Rime provides 5 RP).
I think this is part of the reason I trend towards UP, in that I can flush all of the incoming resources and have better control over when to fire Rime/KM. That and the movement speed which I'm sure will continue to be a large factor in almost all raid encounters as we go forward, as it's something they continue to emphasize in WotLK raids.
To be fair, even the sims show both presences pretty close to each other (surely due to how many potential GCDs the build has to spend) so I think this may play out to be a YMMV decision except in the most extreme circumstances (i.e. another true Patchwork encounter).
Edit - One other thing I was thinking about earlier today was whether FC's uptime varies much depending on which slot it occupies. If the uptime isn't affected by being in the OH, it seems like RI would make more sense to run on the main hand weapon, even if it a minimal gain.
FC in offhand shouldn't effect it up time since it is a PPM, but the delay in ToT strikes may effect it.
I think RI may actually be better in the MH as you get your stacks up faster since the first strike of ToT hits first. Thus it would actually effect your OH delayed hit as well I think. All the strikes we use are effected by ToT as well. Only problem with this is it will have the ToT delay on FC uptime, but overall uptime should be the same.
@khironthir your RP calc is way off as noted by Windy.
I've heard a lot of people say they dont generally have enough time to dump RP.
Switching to unholy presence is a big loss in general DPS though, since 15% haste does not match up with 15% more damage. So unless you can regain that with 1 more FS per rotation (because thats technically what we're talking about most likely), which i doubt, you won't see a dps increase from it.
Originally Posted by reflexdk
I wonder if the trouble dumping RP is latency related?
With ~60 ping, I didn't seem to have a problem keeping my RP at around 2/3 ready for KM procs, while in Blood pres with a 53/18 spec last night. I still had a good second to spare to refresh my rotation, apart from the odd opportunity when dumping RP that KM procced again and again, meaning it was worth not having diseases on the target for a few seconds to finish spamming KM FSs.
I do notice in high latency times my rotation and consequently my DPS really suffers as a DK though...
Most of the time I'm also not able to dump most of my RP (using disease, fs, ob glyphs) in blood presence, except when i get a long string without any Rime procs. To me it all evens out in the end do to the random nature of Rime procs, as after a full clear of both Ulduar10 and 25m (with some hard modes) there were even times when I had an open GCD because Rime hadn't proc'd for a long time.
Also, having extra runic isn't necessarily a bad thing considering how low FS is in the priority. In many movement heavy fights I was able to dump this extra RP with DC while I was away from the boss.
As far as latency and lag is concerned both Tues and Wed our server was plauged with some nasty bugs and some lag and I still had almost no issue keeping up the rotation (2 instances in both 10 and 25 clears where I had to refresh without PT) and the DPS is really incredible. On a side note, I'm averaging 6500-7000 single target DPS, with it jumping as high as 10.5k on Hodir.
I almost want to try CG out and see how it fares in comparison assuming it can be combined with HB more often than not, but I have to assume it will still yield lower results.
My concern about CG is if it be affected by Necrosis. If so, it's a waste of a rune unless it procs extremely often, and even so, still highly debatable. The only other concern would be timing CG to fit within a Rime // KM window, which doesn't happen as often as we'd like.
I had the chance to run some ulduar tonight and I never ever felt like the RP was a problem. Sometimes it overflows but FS is low on prio and you can dump on DC's when running (which we have to admit we do alot).
1. I have a habit of throwing FS's between Obli's if I am RP capped since I come straight from unholy. I reckon this should come out as a DPS loss but it really just feels nice at the moment.
2. I read some people talking about "saving KM"? This is just plain wrong if you ask me: you save RIMES. Basically if you get a KM you might wanna make use of it, especially if you are capped or close to capped on RP, otherwise it will be used in the dump. If you get a Rime-proc you simply let it be until/if you proc a KM and throw of a KMRime.
I managed to pull over 7k dps with nearly no damage on adds on Ignis with this rotation - and this with a measly ~9% ArP. Managed to scrape some gear together to boost myself to 23% now and am excepting a noticable increase.
One thing that I can't emphazise enough is the need for some stat values soon. The simulator seems well bugged, so I don't know how much we can trust it? Especially curious about ArP, haste and hit after special hit cap.
EDIT: As Darkside quickly reminded me the point 1 is not a DPS-loss since you only weave one FS at a time.
1. I have a habit of throwing FS's between Obli's if I am RP capped since I come straight from unholy. I reckon this should come out as a DPS loss but it really just feels nice at the moment.
As long as you aren't letting your runes idle for more than 3s, this shouldn't be a DPS loss.
Actually looking at CoTG again overall RP gain. It seems to what is cause people to be RP capped.
There is 12-13 GCD in 20 sec
The two rotations:
IT>PS>OB>BS>BS>Dump
OB>OB>OB>Dump
W/O CoTG 100 RP for 3 FS. 6 RP left.
That leaves 1 GCD for Rime. Could spend those 2 points else where.
w CotG 125 RP but need 128 isn't enough for 4 FS.
8 GCD use for runes leave 4-5 left. That mean 3 FS + Rime or 4 FS no rime. This build doesn't seem to require IT Glyph or chill. otherwise it will have excess RP.
For the disease one:
OB>OB>PT>BS>dump
OB>OB>OB>Dump
W/O chill
15+15+10+10 =50
15+15+15 = 45
95 short 1 for 3 FS.
W chill
20+20+10+10 = 60
20+20+20 = 60
120+10 for HoW is enough for 4 FS. 2 RP left
only 7 rune CD are used so we have 5-6 to for FS, Rime, HoW. Here you need CotG to get the RP need to use FS that many times.
If you use Horn you can get 4 FS and maybe the Rime as the 13 GCD.
All this isn't considering the extra RP from stuff like druid's heals which gives us more RP than need as well.
Edit to respond to above posters:
chillbrains doesn't effect raid bosses they are immune to it.
CG only effects IT/FS/HB/DC so it only boosts those attacks and actually procs a decent amount of times(~3-5 a minute)
One thing that I can't emphazise enough is the need for some stat values soon. The simulator seems well bugged, so I don't know how much we can trust it? Especially curious about ArP, haste and hit after special hit cap.
This is a big concern for me. I'm very uncertain how much +hit these builds should be aiming for. If, in fact, our white damage is practically negligible in the grand scheme of dps output, then hit-capping past specials (8%) is useless.
With talents, this means that we would be going for no more than 5% +hit, or 4% with Draenei aura.
This feels like a piddling amount of +hit to aim for, but I'm realizing that every DK build so far has been very clear about not particularly caring about what our white damage is doing, as long as something is getting hit.
I've also been wondering about the hit req'd for this DW build. I've been aiming for +263 hit, carried over from my previous 2h frost spec requirement, but I'm not sure what I need to be aiming for with 2 1h weps.
I also had a question about Virulence.. the 3% spell hit talent. What abilities do we have that count as spells? I was under the impression that PS, BS, OB, and FS are all melee, not spell, and the only ones I could think of for "spell" would be IT and DC, which we don't use. So how does that factor into the equation of how much hit we need?
Also a lot of people have been mentioning being RP capped a lot of the time.. somebody already mentioned weaving a FS between rune abilities so as not to waste RP, and I've been doing that since i started a DK, and it's been working out real well for me.
*edit* I also forgot to ask about taking Subversion over BCB.. is BCB significant enough in its dps that it would outweigh the extra 9% crit on both BS and OB?
This is the Unholy Obliterate DW build. It takes advantage of the third disease in unholy to make obliterate do quality damage while striking with only the mainhand. This build is a result of most high end ulduar gear having Armor Pen.
i have been using the 0/53/18 spec and using sigil of awareness, it seems by obliterate is my main damaging attack, is the DC/FS sigil (cant remember the name) a dps improvement even with the nerf to it? i have read through and not seen a post on it (its late, im tired, may have missed it) also is there some kind of macro to tell me or even use the Rime proc when KM has proc'd as im finding that during the FS RP dump, the FS is snatching the KM proc.
Would equipping the DC/FS sigil make the FS a more worthy attack to use with the KM? (late night rambling)
I've played most of Ulduar with Frost 0/54/17 and some bosses with Unholy 0/17/54 PS+IT spam spec.
Frost: The sustained dps is very good. I normally play Blood exclusively and Frost felt like doing a good 300dps more and I still lack some practice. Unfortunately the log is not very useful due to the horrible Ulduar bugs and I jumped in Mimiron's Laser in P4 while being first. Blood still has the best survivability .
I played XT-002 in UHP and tried to use AMS on cooldown by leeching damage from the lights. I did solid 7,3k dps, never achieved that much with Blood. In my experience that's solid. On Thorim I also was better than Blood (Just the damage on the boss. Use Skada, it's very useful). Also FS overtakes OB in UHP. On Vezax (#13 WMO) I used BP, because without a steady rp supply from AMS UHP seems to fall behind. In BP you have a little too much rp, but it's unavoidable.
Frost only has mediocre aoe damage, a lot of aggro and totally lack decent burst damage, UA is not really on demand. I was really missing DRW. Overall I'd say that Frost is viable. I still don't really know which presence to use.
Unholy: Tried Unholy for Alone in the Darkness after half of the tries. First, pets totally suck in phase 2. I had some trouble killing my tentacle. Aoe damage is very good in phase 3.
Then we went to do the pvp bosses. Emalon & breakdown (never moved away from him), Archavon & breakdown. That is not actually bad and can still be improved. I was never below 90 rp with the IT glyph. The UB glyph would have been a better investment (That's what I apparently also found out with the sim, but I'm noticing that right now) or a different rotation with more powerful strikes.
08/06/09, 6:03 PM
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