For those who can't wait, i tried to make a quick Statweight, based on how the new DW-Fr-Spec compares to the Old Frost spec.
It's probably not the best calculation, it's just a small taste of how the weights will *PROBABLY* look.
here are some assumptions i made to switch from Old-2HFR (17/51/3) to New DW-fr. (0 / 53 / 18 ) [Still using T8].
Gained :
-Necrosis = 20% more dmg on White attacks so 20% more benefit from Haste
-Ravenous Dead = 3% more benefit from STR
-BCB = 30% * 25%+25%(full diseased) => 15%; so haste gets another 15%
Loss :
-5% Crit = this probably means that Crit-rating gets more valuable since u need 5 more % to get to the Softcap ( 30%) so Weight x 20% ( based on Post-needing 25% and now 30% so 5% from 25 more -> + 20%)
-bladed armor = neglectible for this rough calc
Here's something that I don't believe anyone has pointed out yet: when diseases are refreshed by Glyph of Disease, they retain the attributes/stat bonuses they got when originally applied. This means that if you cast diseases with Greatness/UA/etc. up, they'll keep the increases damage from those modifiers for the entire fight, assuming you continue to refresh them with the glyph. This is a substantial dps boost; with my trinket procs alone, I was able to increase disease damage by 200+ on a dummy and this will only increase in a raid setting. I'm not yet sure if they respond this way to debuffs placed on targets i.e. if diseases applied to Icehowl during his stun keep the 50% bonus once the damage buff has expired, but plan on doing some testing later in the week.
GoD's refresh should work exactly the same as a Shadow Priest's Shadow Word: Pain when it is refreshed by Mind Flay.
The stats that matter when the spell is cast are SP (for us, AP) and any direct SELF +damage% buff. It may not matter normally, but with T9 4piece our diseases will be able to crit. If I remember correctly, crit buffs are automatically factored in, so they shouldn't require a recast.
Boss debuffs will dynamically recalculate the damage, so a recast in this case should be unneeded.
So the diseases should do maximum damage when applied both with any AP buffs and with any extra +damage% buffs (such as the Runes of Power in the IC fight).
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Those stat weights seem somewhat reasonable, though I hesitate to consider hit that high. I think we need some solid sims to generate accurate hit values for the three tiers of use. (Uncapped, pre-spell capped, and pre-white capped.)
However, it doesn't factor in the % values of the damage types with the new build. Our white hits should be increased, and our Obliterate damage is considerably higher as well, so ArP should be considerably higher valued. (Not a bad thing, with current high end gear.)
From what I've heard from various guild spreists, debuffs on the boss (i.e. scorch) will matter as well. This probably won't be an issue for us, as we'll be waiting ~10-20s before getting all our trinkets/procs up to apply our "full" diseases.
Regarding UP and RP swamping: The problem is that until the KMRime occurs, the rotation almost fits like a glove in BP (Going in UP from the start would leave us standing with no instant attacks available for 3+ seconds assuming no Rime/KMRime), actually being starved by roughly half a GCD every rotation, meaning that even if we get swamped we will be working back toward 0 RP during a long period of no KMRime. This reoccurs every time you have to break off a target and re-engage with low RP. Also, we don't have the RP5 from Butchery anymore, making the sustained rotation we had from the 2H frost even mroe distant
What I meant with the interrupts/other RP stuff part is that you won't be RP capped very often, but you will be in the range of 80-100 RP very often. I do agree with the comments on weaving FS' still to avoid being capped, maybe even putting KMFS on a higher priority to further avoid RP swamping. But as I mentioned in my previous post, I don't really see it as a massive problem.
Has anyone tested out how a 3/50/18 build would work ? i mean, i've run 53/18 last night, and i didnt get THAT MUCH KM/RIME procs, if we could lose Rime & HB we'ld have space to fill out 9% Oblit-crit + KM (since you do much more Obliterates than KMRimes). I'm talking in terms of Single target DPS though, AOE is a whole other story ofcouse but thats why there's Dual-spec.
Has anyone tested out how a 3/50/18 build would work ? i mean, i've run 53/18 last night, and i didnt get THAT MUCH KM/RIME procs, if we could lose Rime & HB we'ld have space to fill out 9% Oblit-crit + KM (since you do much more Obliterates than KMRimes). I'm talking in terms of Single target DPS though, AOE is a whole other story ofcouse but thats why there's Dual-spec.
I can see how it has some potential, but I don't think the extra crit would be useful enough to warrant the lack of HB.
The free-rune extra attack is great when you fit it into rotation, and that extra damage likely won't be made up by the crit from subversion. See math from earlier in this threat on subversion vs various unholy talents.
For those who can't wait, i tried to make a quick Statweight, based on how the new DW-Fr-Spec compares to the Old Frost spec.
It's probably not the best calculation, it's just a small taste of how the weights will *PROBABLY* look.
here are some assumptions i made to switch from Old-2HFR (17/51/3) to New DW-fr. (0 / 53 / 18 ) [Still using T8].
Gained :
-Necrosis = 20% more dmg on White attacks so 20% more benefit from Haste
-Ravenous Dead = 3% more benefit from STR
-BCB = 30% * 25%+25%(full diseased) => 15%; so haste gets another 15%
Loss :
-5% Crit = this probably means that Crit-rating gets more valuable since u need 5 more % to get to the Softcap ( 30%) so Weight x 20% ( based on Post-needing 25% and now 30% so 5% from 25 more -> + 20%)
-bladed armor = neglectible for this rough calc
Should the value of expertise be increased due to Frost Strike now being parry/dodgable? (where before it only applied to Obliterate and BS, which were not large sources of damage especially for the ITx6 spec)
Shadow Priests' refresh of their SW:P supposedly DOES recalculate SP gains, but does not recalculate crit/damage% buffs. And it seems as if boss debuffs are also in that category.
Based on that I would expect disease damage to increase during a Str/AP proc if you just refresh it with GoDisease, but is that actually happening? Or is it necessary to recast for us?
The downside to that, if it is the case, is that there would not be a lasting benefit from Str/AP buffs. So it would come down purely to %damage buffs and POSSIBLY crit buffs.
I suppose in such a case you would need to factor in roughly how long you expect the fight to last. It's going to take some time to get the full potential out of fully buffed diseases vs using those GCDs for obliterates. I suppose the question is, how much time would it take? Similarly, with the T9 4-piece bonus, would adding any extra spellcrit buffs/debuffs have a significant impact?
The free-rune extra attack is great when you fit it into rotation, and that extra damage likely won't be made up by the crit from subversion. See math from earlier in this threat on subversion vs various unholy talents.
Where is the math on Subversion? This thread is 40 pages long, i haven't been able to find it yet. I asked yesterday about the dps difference between BCB and Subversion, and in Uld last night it seemed like my OB was critting a lot less than it should be, and BCB was only doing 3-4% of my overall dmg. I'm not in awesome gear or anything, but before 3.2 I was pulling 3.5-4k dps as 2h frost, and I can't seem to quite get back to where I was with DW. Trying to figure out why, I've been following this thread pretty closely for the past few days, and I'm doing all the suggestions people have been making, but can't find where I'm losing DPS.
One thing I notice right off the bat about what I just said is the 13% magic damage bonus you get from Ebon Plague. Because Ebon Plague gets applied right AFTER your first disease, that would mean that the second disease would get the 13% damage buff while the first disease would not, provided it follows the same rules as SPriest DoTs.
If %damage debuffs are not recalculated dynamically, that would mean the first disease will do inferior damage while you are refreshing with GoDisease after the first cast. If this is true, perhaps a blood tap could be used to recast the first disease without losing an early Obliterate? Either that, or recasting both diseases as soon as any other %damage buff/debuffs (and maybe crit) come into play.
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But I'm straying into Unholy, which does not use GoDisease with the current builds. But it would definitely be worth recasting said diseases when a source of the 13% buff becomes available. If there is an Unholy DK in your raid, I would simply wait for them to cast the first disease, applying Ebon Plague, rather than having to recast both diseases after the fact.
Where is the math on Subversion? This thread is 40 pages long [...]
Post #654 from Foxx2405 shows the math, Subversion is a .78% dps gain per point. (on average) So, if you are getting 3-4% damage from 3 points in BCB, your points are in the correct place.
-This question seems to show up every few pages, if not on every single page. I was planning to edit the OP this weekend with a section fully explaining all hit related questions, so I'll toss in a few words and a link to Foxx's math to end the sub vs bcb debate once and for all.
If anyone has quality suggestions for sections of the OP feel free to PM them to me. I would be interested in a section explaining how glyph of disease can be used to keep a "buffed" stack of dots going, as I understand it if Blood Plague and Frost Fever are applied during an AP proc, (such as greatness card, or blood of the old god) GODisease can be used to keep the harder ticking dots going for much longer than normal.
I would be interested in a section explaining how glyph of disease can be used to keep a "buffed" stack of dots going, as I understand it if Blood Plague and Frost Fever are applied during an AP proc, (such as greatness card, or blood of the old god) GODisease can be used to keep the harder ticking dots going for much longer than normal.
I'm dubious whether this is true, based on my above posts. The current functionality of SPriests using the Pain and Suffering talent to refresh SW:P, much like GoDisease, is that SP buffs are recalculated on a refresh.
Now, maybe AP does not work this way, and it should definitely get some hard testing.
However, also based on SPriest functionality, any +damage% or crit buff is calculated ON CAST, and is maintained while 'rolling' their SW:P.
If our GoDisease does indeed work the same way, then disease damage would be maximized by recasting diseases when the maximum number of %damage and, with T9 4pc, spell crit buffs/debuffs are available.
For example, applying your diseases while within a Rune of Power and refreshing with GoDisease afterward should maintain the 50% damage buff for the duration of the fight (or, at least, until that boss dies).
No one interested in the GoD data I posted last page?
I've also modified the sim to give x rp every y seconds (I'm having some trouble creating an UI for it and I'm waiting for Afabar's response). For a quick test I chose 130rp every 60s. It was a very small increase for BP and UHP kinda skyrocketed.
Originally Posted by Silarn
I'm dubious whether this is true, based on my above posts. The current functionality of SPriests using the Pain and Suffering talent to refresh SW:P, much like GoDisease, is that SP buffs are recalculated on a refresh.
It is true. I even wrote it two or three pages ago. BP+FF aren't recalculated on tick.
Post #654 from Foxx2405 shows the math, Subversion is a .78% dps gain per point. (on average) So, if you are getting 3-4% damage from 3 points in BCB, your points are in the correct place.
-This question seems to show up every few pages, if not on every single page. I was planning to edit the OP this weekend with a section fully explaining all hit related questions, so I'll toss in a few words and a link to Foxx's math to end the sub vs bcb debate once and for all.
If anyone has quality suggestions for sections of the OP feel free to PM them to me. I would be interested in a section explaining how glyph of disease can be used to keep a "buffed" stack of dots going, as I understand it if Blood Plague and Frost Fever are applied during an AP proc, (such as greatness card, or blood of the old god) GODisease can be used to keep the harder ticking dots going for much longer than normal.
Just curious, but has anyone seen BCB hitting numbers in the upper 3% range since the patch went live? All parses I have seen that include BCB have it ranging from 2.6-3.2%. Not that it changes the fact that from a pure DPS standpoint BCB is stronger (unless you wind up with a threat problem somehow), but I do think we should try and get a more solid idea as to what it is worth. The difference between 3% and 4% from a 3 point talent would be kind of a big swing IMO, and I've not seen any numbers that really approach the latter as of yet.
I've modified the sim for Glyph of Disease. The first Blood rune is used for BS, the second for Pestilence. The DR's are used for OB. Latency 150ms (There were similar results with 0ms), 3-51-17, BP, Virulence.
Pestilence: DPS 7231This priority, Not a single dropoff
PS+IT: DPS 7611 Standard priority, IT glyph was missing
Does the glyph reset the dot tick?
I'm interested Doc!
For clarity are you showing us GoD vs. Standard without a third glyph?
If this is the case then clearly GoD glyph is a DPS loss.
On a side note I do question the effectiveness of the IT glyph simply because we are so GCD starved as it is. Since you can't spend all the RP anyway IT glyph really isn't doing anything. The PS glyph might be our best 3rd option even though its not really a big DPS gain.
Another thing to note is GoD "rotation" has one less GCD allowing the dumping of Rime procs and FS more efficiently. If I'm reading Doc's above post correctly and the sim is correct, this still appears to be a DPS loss though.
I was playing with the simulator today and had the idea to build a DW Frost build with the similar concept of the Unholy OB builds, use massive RP gains to boost damage. My first attempts at using UB as the RP dump didn't turn out too well, but switching to FS seems to up the damage quite a bit.
I'm sure someone can rip this apart, but according to the sim the dps seems viable. (using DW Stat Set 1, 100ms latency, 100 hours)
For clarity are you showing us GoD vs. Standard without a third glyph?
If this is the case then clearly GoD glyph is a DPS loss.
On a side note I do question the effectiveness of the IT glyph simply because we are so GCD starved as it is. Since you can't spend all the RP anyway IT glyph really isn't doing anything. The PS glyph might be our best 3rd option even though its not really a big DPS gain.
Another thing to note is GoD "rotation" has one less GCD allowing the dumping of Rime procs and FS more efficiently. If I'm reading Doc's above post correctly and the sim is correct, this still appears to be a DPS loss though.
No third glyph was an accident, but everyone should get the idea.
We aren't GCD starved. With GoD you don't even have enough rp to use every GCD. The IT glyph is the best third glyph, without it we are rp starved. If you can use AMS for more rp you should use UHP anyway. I don't really see a use for GoD. It works, but you can get a slightly better result with much less work.
I haven't noticed any issues being GCD starved in BP with GoD. Simply by being diligent in your pre-fight RP generation, effective use of AMS and the presence of druids/disc. preists in the raid was enough to insure that I always had enough RP to use during my Rune downtime. I'm going to be experimenting with UP later this week, but my current theory is that it will result in less damage, primarily because of the big nerfs Frost Strike received (mostly to the Sigil).
When you say you have modified the simulator for Glyph of disease, are you talking about simply using it to refresh diseases? Or have you also modified it to include the ability to keep a "buffed" stack of diseases ticking for an extended period of time?
Just wondering, because I was under the impression that the exact mechanics of keeping the harder hitting diseases ticking was still under discussion. If the math is solid, then the math is solid, but its hard to think that being able to keep a buffed stack of diseases wouldn't be a dps gain.
When you say you have modified the simulator for Glyph of disease, are you talking about simply using it to refresh diseases? Or have you also modified it to include the ability to keep a "buffed" stack of diseases ticking for an extended period of time?
The first diseases are used. I didn't bother finetuning it, since the dps difference was too large.
@Melchior: Are you SURE you aren't just looking at the main hand BCB-proc? Just pulling a random parse: on XT last night my main hand BCB did 2.3% and off hand 1.3% putting it on 3.6% which clearly is just as expected.
About RP and GCD what Döc says I must say is definitely true (at least in my case?). I'm not GCD starved and without IT glyph I wouldn't be able to pull off enough FS's to fill my GCDs actually.
I'm dubious whether this is true, based on my above posts. The current functionality of SPriests using the Pain and Suffering talent to refresh SW:P, much like GoDisease, is that SP buffs are recalculated on a refresh.
Now, maybe AP does not work this way, and it should definitely get some hard testing.
As Doc said, it's definitely possible to "roll" your AP-buffed diseases. Self-buffed (i.e. just HoW) on a dummy, I was able to maintain a BP+FF applied during a stars-align proc of Greatness/FC/UA (worth about 1200 Str altogether). Rolling the AP-buffed BP+FF was worth ~200 dmg per tick over those from diseases applied with no procs up (but with the 15% from TS). Some napkin math says rolling the buffed diseases is worth ~130 dps on a dummy (magic vulnerability debuff would make it ~150 dps, and ebon plague, if you get it, ~200 dps).
Obviously there is some nice potential there, especially coupled with the fact that GoDisease'd Pestilence will never clip your diseases. The issue is that you really don't want to have to apply your diseases more than twice if you can avoid it (once at the start of the fight, and then again so your FF gets the TS buff and hopefully some AP proc). But there's just no way to ensure, even on a Patchwerk-fight, that you'll have any, let alone 2 or more, chance-on-hit procs up within the window for you to apply diseases the second time. So you may well end up having to decide later between an launching an OB or reapplying your diseases when you *do* have some procs. When you are applying your diseases every 20s, it will sometimes be with a proc and sometimes without. You don't have the potential to roll super-diseases, but you also don't have to worry about rolling unbuffed diseases either.
The fact that you have to apply your diseases twice each time you start fresh on a target to avoid rolling a gimped FF really really hurts the Glyph of Disease method in my eyes. It means that you aren't actually *gaining* any OBs until you've had 40s on the target (at t=40s you've applied diseases twice both with the GoDisease and without). On Patchwerk or a dummy or a sim, I can see the potential, but the dps gain over a "standard" 0/53/18 type build without GoDisease seems really fragile in the sense that it is very susceptible to RNG. Basically until there's a somewhat robust record of parses to compare the two on actual encounters, I'm not going to be sold on GoDisease.
Last edited by Patterns... : 08/07/09 at 7:57 PM.
Reason: UB =/= UA
I had a chance to look over some logs, in an attempt to find some data that might be slightly more reliable than recount screen shots. Judging dps by looking at an overall boss fight is pretty hard, so I went ahead and pulled two segments from our world of logs parse last night. I'm actually quite surprised with the results 0/17/54 DC spam produced. Now, there really isn't a perfect fight to measure dps on so I figured we should take a look at some actual fights, using the segment feature to find the data we want. This isn't a perfect way to check dps, but it does show how a specific spec performs on real game fights, which in my opinion is important data.
First segment World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis This is a segment of the log for Hardmode Thorim, the data represents phase two only. The span is about 200 seconds long. I feel like there is some room for improvement in my play, but overall this spec has held up in 3.2. without a doubt. The new unholy blight represented 4.4% of my overall damage, which is an insane amount for a single point invested.
Second Segment World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis This second segment is very short, it represents only steelbreaker on hardmode council. Obviously the damage isn't representative of sustained dps in any way, but honestly, just about every instance has situations where you really need to turn on the dps for a 60-90 second span. The 10 minute cooldown on army of the dead shouldn't be overlooked, it pretty much means you have your most powerful cooldown available for every pull.
I would be very interested if anyone can pull similar segments from their logs, It would be nice to see how close the various builds are for the same part of a fight. I feel this data can be very valuable, but we should consider these parses to be informational only, I don't want to start any type of an E-peen contest. Collecting data on a build's live performance is the next logical step, we need to identify if any of the builds have large changes between simulator and reality.
08/07/09, 9:32 AM
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