DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand - Page 41

concept84 · 07/28/09, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Foxx2405

If i have time one of these days ill go try out a scaling gearset. Maybe take the current frost 2H BiS items and try something.

Given the percentage of physical damage dealt in a 3/51/17 or slight variant build it might be more beneficial to test in current BiS Blood gear, because with the increase in percentage of physical strikes making up our damage breakdown I suspect ArP to be a much more desirable stat.

Schadenfrued · 07/28/09, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Konata

...So it looks like IT/HB/Disease glyphs are left to be compared for the 3rd slot for Frost DW.
...

Regarding this question: I did some testing last night on the PTR in Naxx and OS to try and get some sense of how the disease glyph plays in less optimal scenarios (not a sim or pounding on a dummy). It was virtually impossible to get back to pestilence in my rotation before my diseases were expired in almost every case. And that is with the additional 6 seconds of uptime. The timing of it is such that just using two rune dumps at the end (or mixed in) per cycle was enough to make it insanely tight, and once any sort of movement was added into the equation, it became impossible.

I did not try Unholy presence because i didn't feel like I had enough attacks to make up for the loss of 15%, I would have just eneded up with refreshed diseases and lots of dead space.

Foxx2405 · 07/28/09, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Mongoe

Regarding this question: I did some testing last night on the PTR in Naxx and OS to try and get some sense of how the disease glyph plays in less optimal scenarios (not a sim or pounding on a dummy). It was virtually impossible to get back to pestilence in my rotation before my diseases were expired in almost every case. And that is with the additional 6 seconds of uptime. The timing of it is such that just using two rune dumps at the end (or mixed in) per cycle was enough to make it insanely tight, and once any sort of movement was added into the equation, it became impossible.

I did not try Unholy presence because i didn't feel like I had enough attacks to make up for the loss of 15%, I would have just eneded up with refreshed diseases and lots of dead space.

Yea this is where theroycrafting gets slapped in the face by practical/technical hinderances.
In theory 21 seconds should be plenty to keep pestilenced diseases up, but if it fails due to said hinderances you lose a lot of dps.

Kithus · 07/28/09, 11:20 AM

Has anyone actually simmed 0/17/54 with the 3.2 changes? I just ran it through quick and it seems to be within 50 DPS of 3/51/17. That's without any effort put into tweaking things.

Foxx2405 · 07/28/09, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Kithus

Has anyone actually simmed 0/17/54 with the 3.2 changes? I just ran it through quick and it seems to be within 50 DPS of 3/51/17. That's without any effort put into tweaking things.

Check about 2-3 pages back, we simmed unholy DW too (not sure if that was only 13/58 or also 17/54). It comes slightly ahead of frost DW at the moment i think, but unholy has some random factors (read: ghoul) on which it is dependant which make it slightly more vulnerable to irregular fights (movement / big aoe magic attacks / certain boss buffs).

Ok I'm gonna run a frost DW build with BiS blood gear from the BiS thread, im simply gonna use exactly those stats with 2x 2.6 weapons.

EDIT: Ok there is a new version with a lot of positive tweaks for frost DW and some adjustments for unholy DW (a few errors in their benefit) i'm gonna use default setstat2 and run a few specs through a fast test again and get some numbers going.

Foxx2405 · 07/28/09, 11:46 AM

There is currently a bug with the simulator where it produces way too high DPS numbers (20k and above).
It seems the bug is a linear issue though as it seems to still keep dps ratio's reasonably intact.

Therefor i can not draw conclusions, but it seems that with the fixes to the simulator, where "frost getts buffed and unholy gets nerfed":
- ToT fixes
- Ability to proc rime from both hands
- Ability to prioritize KM Rime
- Unholy Blight reduced from 30% to 20% like on PTR.

It seems with those tweaks, frost DW is pulling ahead now. I can not say how much, but it certainly looks that way. I'm gonna wait for a fixed version and then post some results.

[Edit] Found the problem myself, setstat2 has a default armor penetration rating of 3000. Removing a zero fixes it again.

concept84 · 07/28/09, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Mongoe

Regarding this question: I did some testing last night on the PTR in Naxx and OS to try and get some sense of how the disease glyph plays in less optimal scenarios (not a sim or pounding on a dummy). It was virtually impossible to get back to pestilence in my rotation before my diseases were expired in almost every case. And that is with the additional 6 seconds of uptime.

I also did testing within raids on the PTR with glyph of disease and found it much better actually. Almost everything in current content is predictable and I found that due to movement or another factor I could just Pest before my RP dump, then move to RP dump because my FU runes are still waiting to come back up. You can also simply use a Death rune to refresh diseases while moving away from the boss. This isn't optimal of course, but its better than diseases falling off or having to reapply them. Another similar example would be using Death Coil at range while running back to the boss (rather than wait to use FS). Its not optimal, but better than the alternative. In most situations I find it to be more versatile and am loving the rotation.

Odii · 07/28/09, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by Foxx2405

There is currently a bug with the simulator where it produces way too high DPS numbers (20k and above).
It seems the bug is a linear issue though as it seems to still keep dps ratio's reasonably intact.

Therefor i can not draw conclusions, but it seems that with the fixes to the simulator, where "frost getts buffed and unholy gets nerfed":
- ToT fixes
- Ability to proc rime from both hands
- Ability to prioritize KM Rime
- Unholy Blight reduced from 30% to 20% like on PTR.

It seems with those tweaks, frost DW is pulling ahead now. I can not say how much, but it certainly looks that way. I'm gonna wait for a fixed version and then post some results.

[Edit] Found the problem myself, setstat2 has a default armor penetration rating of 3000. Removing a zero fixes it again.

KM Rime really makes a big difference. The problem with using the rime proc in the sim was that Rime, when used semi randomly, was a dps loss over Frost Strike. But not using Rime just cheats you out of damage as you are short on RP to fill ally your global cooldowns. But KM Rime lets you find a nice happy place, where rime is used, but not so much as to negatively impact damage. Before I could get better damage from a rotation that I know was sub optimal then any priority by completely ignoring rime and focussing on good structure for FS usage. Not the case when you can prioritize KM Rime, though I imagine if I could prioritize KM Rime in the RP dump slots in my rotation, using the rotation would pull ahead.

One thing my Glyph of Howling Blast analysis didnt look at was KM Rime, and how the use of Rime procs with KM effects damage. So, even if its impractical terms not too complicated to use (and I haven't decided if it is or isn't at this stage), it may do so little extra damage that its not worth the trouble.

Glyph of Disease is clearly the best glyph choice if you can execute it in an actual encounter and you don't need to provide IIT, but if those things arent in your favor, the third glyph is a fairly minor influence on your overall dps. Clearly there is probably a best answer, but what that answer is probably isnt going to effect your DPS so much that other people could notice it.

Foxx2405 · 07/28/09, 12:53 PM

Ok this will be a somewhat long post i think.

First I checked a few of the frost builds with this new simulator:

00-53-18
01-52-18
03-51-17
03-52-16
03-53-15 without UA
03-53-15 with UA

I did some short tests on them (50 hours), and the numbers were relatively close:

Spec	DPS
00-53-18	7254
01-52-18	7214
03-51-17	7184
03-52-16	7201
03-53-15 (KM)	7213
03-53-15 (UA)	7217

Personally i'm under the impression that with intelligent play you can get most out of a spec that does include UA, so i'm gonna discard the others as the sim shows no real gain anyway.

Since 53-18 seems to hold the best cards in the quick test, (most likely caused due to a better implementation of both rime and KM in the simulator as well as some ToT fixes) I'm gonna cross reference that one with the 17/54 unholy spec.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ability	Total	%	Landed	Hit%	Crit%	Miss%	Average
Obliterate	3364634725	25	336811	44	55	0	9989
PlagueStrike	238744396	1	86408	53	46	0	2762
IcyTouch	327274055	2	86705	44	54	0	3774
FrostStrike	2687296307	20	350427	51	48	0	7668
HowlingBlast	728356949	5	62890	0	99	0	11581
Bloodstrike	719452256	5	162058	60	39	0	4439
FrostFever	487862448	3	545686	100	0	0	894
BloodPlague	443597164	3	545607	100	0	0	813
Necrosis	571170227	4	1571248	100	0	0	363
BloodCakedBlade	344813804	2	471901	100	0	0	730
MainHand	1811388592	13	785374	44	39	15	2306
Offhand	1044926203	7	785874	44	40	15	1329
Ghoul	286742088	2	382698	87	12	0	749
Raz	7072866	0	785874	100	0	0	9

DPS 7257
Total Damage 13063332080 in 500 h
Threat Per Second 5710
Generated in 318s
Template :DW-00-53-18.xml(C:\Downloads\Games\WoW\DKSimulator\DKSimulator0.9.6\Templates\DW-00-53-18.xml)
Priority :Frost.xml(C:\Downloads\Games\WoW\DKSimulator\DKSimulator0.9.6\Priority\Frost.xml)
Presence :Blood
Sigil of :Awareness
RuneForge :FallenCrusader / Razorice
Pet Calculation :True

----------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ability	Total	%	Landed	Hit%	Crit%	Miss%	Average
PlagueStrike	396616832	3	256251	52	47	0	1547
IcyTouch	1564172658	13	637854	66	32	0	2452
BloodStrike	303048589	2	173376	58	41	0	1747
DeathCoil	2160405347	19	399454	66	32	0	5408
UB	432041083	3	399454	100	0	0	1081
FrostFever	294723126	2	271593	100	0	0	1085
BloodPlague	488167965	4	449403	100	0	0	1086
Necrosis	566832555	5	1694212	100	0	0	334
BloodCakedBlade	406628188	3	508139	100	0	0	800
MainHand	1798859344	15	847332	42	41	15	2122
OffHand	1035746862	9	846880	42	41	15	1223
Ghoul	1677585288	14	1959112	86	13	0	856
Gargoyle	146700744	1	42237	86	13	0	3473

DPS 6262
Total Damage 11271528581 in 500 h
Threat Per Second 4244
Generated in 595s
Template :DW-00-53-18.xml(C:\Downloads\Games\WoW\DKSimulator\DKSimulator0.9.6\Templates\DW-00-53-18.xml)
Priority :DualUnholy.xml(C:\Downloads\Games\WoW\DKSimulator\DKSimulator0.9.6\Priority\DualUnho ly.xml)
Presence :Unholy
Sigil of :VengefulHeart
RuneForge :FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation :True

Above Unholy simulation has the wrong glyphs. Actual dps should be 6900

---------------

Seems frost pulls ahead somewhat now, however my rotation might have been off on unholy (diseases > DC > IT > GF > BS > PS), but i doubt it makes that huge a gap.

TODO (when i have time, which might be tonight if the raid is canceled):

- Compare some glyphs
- Check the specs at BiS blood gear stats
- Compare point for point dps of the following talents with BiS blood gear: Subversion / KM / BCB.

Kistrel · 07/28/09, 1:32 PM

Have you guys even thought of using Night of the Dead instead of Subversion and running Glyph of the Ghoul as your third glyph? Having a 30sec cooldown on Risen Ghoul gives him a very high uptime and he's fully buffed from talents/glyphs minus raid buffs, so should do more damage than just some crit on Blood Strike and Obliterate.

Raika · 07/28/09, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by Foxx2405

There is currently a bug with the simulator where it produces way too high DPS numbers (20k and above).
It seems the bug is a linear issue though as it seems to still keep dps ratio's reasonably intact.

Therefor i can not draw conclusions, but it seems that with the fixes to the simulator, where "frost getts buffed and unholy gets nerfed":
- ToT fixes
- Ability to proc rime from both hands
- Ability to prioritize KM Rime
- Unholy Blight reduced from 30% to 20% like on PTR.

It seems with those tweaks, frost DW is pulling ahead now. I can not say how much, but it certainly looks that way. I'm gonna wait for a fixed version and then post some results.

[Edit] Found the problem myself, setstat2 has a default armor penetration rating of 3000. Removing a zero fixes it again.

So with the KM Rime support what was your priority, exactly?
Diseases>KM Rime>KM FS>OB>BS>FS?

Odii · 07/28/09, 1:56 PM

@Foxxx2405: other then the spec xml that is listed on your unholy test (not a big deal, I see UB in there), wandering plague damage is conspicuous in its absence on that parse.

@Kistrel: A couple quick simulations indicate that its maybe 20 extra dps over no glyph at all, with the points in subversion instead going to Night of the Dead. Btw, its a 90 second cooldown, so uptime is only 40%. The talent to make it permanent lowers it another 60 seconds. Considering that the Ghoul can still be offed early, I dont think its a productive way to go.

Astalion · 07/28/09, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mongoe

Regarding this question: I did some testing last night on the PTR in Naxx and OS to try and get some sense of how the disease glyph plays in less optimal scenarios (not a sim or pounding on a dummy). It was virtually impossible to get back to pestilence in my rotation before my diseases were expired in almost every case. And that is with the additional 6 seconds of uptime. The timing of it is such that just using two rune dumps at the end (or mixed in) per cycle was enough to make it insanely tight, and once any sort of movement was added into the equation, it became impossible.

I did not try Unholy presence because i didn't feel like I had enough attacks to make up for the loss of 15%, I would have just eneded up with refreshed diseases and lots of dead space.

You could however change BS to another Pest (Pest->Pest for the blood runes, pest doesn't clip the disease anyway). This would give you another 1.5 seconds to cast the first pestilence for refreshing the diseases, and at least mathematically it still comes out ahead of the BS glyph (it also doesn't require the slow effect on your target, and for a stationary patchwerk-style fight you would probably be able to use the original BS->Pest for your blood runes)

Foxx2405 · 07/28/09, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by Raika

So with the KM Rime support what was your priority, exactly?
Diseases>KM Rime>KM FS>OB>BS>FS?

Diseases > KM Rime > Obliterate > Blood Strike > Frost Strike

The RP generation isn't huge and i think the sim bleeds RP in between runes anyway.

@Odii

I used the spec that was given on the front page, it doesn't include WP.

Sec I'll run a 13/58 spec with a unholy rotation (I believe that's what a 13/58 spec uses right ? Same as 2H unholy ?)

EDIT:

Ability	Total	%	Landed	Hit%	Crit%	Miss%	Average
ScourgeStrike	1381383470	12	396376	54	45	0	3485
PlagueStrike	103859668	0	45447	54	45	0	2285
IcyTouch	130479703	1	45422	66	32	0	2872
BloodStrike	348998060	3	173561	60	39	0	2010
DeathCoil	1309116015	11	274394	66	32	0	4770
UB	261868459	2	274394	100	0	0	954
FrostFever	681872227	6	536254	100	0	0	1271
BloodPlague	670285840	5	526984	100	0	0	1271
Necrosis	584376400	5	1516800	100	0	0	385
BloodCakedBlade	425216239	3	455905	100	0	0	932
WanderingPlague	462727108	4	363865	99	0	0	1271
MainHand	1853866705	16	757993	44	39	15	2445
OffHand	1069140393	9	758807	44	39	15	1408
Ghoul	1458967452	12	1618832	86	13	0	901
Gargoyle	570026486	5	164367	86	12	0	3468

DPS 6285
Total Damage 11312184225 in 500 h
Threat Per Second 4179
Generated in 317s
Template :DW-00-13-58.xml(C:\Downloads\Games\WoW\DKSimulator\DKSimulator0.9.6\Templates\DW-00-13-58.xml)
Priority :Unholy.xml(C:\Downloads\Games\WoW\DKSimulator\DKSimulator0.9.6\Priority\Unholy.xml)
Presence :Blood
Sigil of :Awareness
RuneForge :FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation :True

Above spec / simulation is of no importance as this rotation / spec is not used, due to a weak SS in 3.2

Edit 2:

For people who want to know how i make those tables fast:

I don't have word so i use wordpad, but i guess the same works.

1. Copy the text from the sim, and paste it in your text processor (make sure you keep text only and not have it auto paste in a table (You can do this in wordpad by using Edit -> Paste Special -> unformatted text ; in Word you can edit it to match destination after you paste it)

2. Use the Replace function (under edit) and replace all spaces (simply put a space) with a | (that is shift + \ for me, thats not a small L or a capital I by the way)

3. Press and hold Ctrl + Z (undo) until you got all spaces back on the lower section (the part you dont want in the table)
This works for wordpad, not sure about word. If it doesn't work you could try selecting the table section before you use replace.

4. Remove all double |
These tend to be placed at the end of each line on the table section as there are double spaces there

5. Remove all | signs in the ability name that contain spaces, either replace them with a space manually or just delete them (thats what i do, hence why my table has no spaces between abilities).

6. Copy and paste to EJ, select the table part and select the table icon (second last, just before the wowhead icon)

7. Bold the DPS part for easy to spot stuff for people who just don't give about the rest.

This is the way I do it, i can turn the sim data into table format in about 30 seconds this way.

Schadenfrued · 07/28/09, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by Astalion

You could however change BS to another Pest (Pest->Pest for the blood runes, pest doesn't clip the disease anyway). This would give you another 1.5 seconds to cast the first pestilence for refreshing the diseases, and at least mathematically it still comes out ahead of the BS glyph (it also doesn't require the slow effect on your target, and for a stationary patchwerk-style fight you would probably be able to use the original BS->Pest for your blood runes)

So that would be two cd's used for non-damaging events? WRT to this and the earlier post where there was a suggestion of how to tweak the rotation around using pestilence, my perspective is that I want a clean rotation that can be executed while dodging fire, moving behind the target, tabbing to next target (basically which one do I need to nurse the least by being glued to ability cd's and disease timers) all while doing as close to optimal dps as possible. Long story short, I don't see the compelling argument for pestilence improving my dps all that much using it once every 2 cycles. I can't believe it would be an improvement used twice. Using IT and PS increase my odds of keeping diseases up and do it at what seems to be a very low cost. Given a choice, I'll take the secure, flexible, repeatable rotation every time (and it/ps seems to be that rotation).