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Old 08/09/09, 3:35 PM   #1076
concept84
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Darrowmere
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3 View Post
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay
Stormcaller only. It's not really overwhelming.
WMO Top 20

Just to add, it looks like both DW Unholy and DW Frost (with IT or Disease glyph) are both having great success in Ulduar. This is very pleasing because it shows that we have tons of options.

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Old 08/09/09, 4:04 PM   #1077
dr_AllCOM3
Great Tiger
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Blutkessel (EU)
Originally Posted by concept84 View Post
Just to add, it looks like both DW Unholy and DW Frost (with IT or Disease glyph) are both having great success in Ulduar. This is very pleasing because it shows that we have tons of options.
While we're at it, Algalon (Yay, firstkill) WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay (#5 WMO)
I have the feeling, that Blood still would have been better.

Last edited by dr_AllCOM3 : 08/09/09 at 5:51 PM.


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Old 08/09/09, 4:30 PM   #1078
Sylari
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Cenarion Circle
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3 View Post
While we're at it, Algalon (Yay, firstkill) WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay
I have the feeling, that Blood still would have been better.
BCB damage seemed really low (.55% per point? ) Looks like subversion might be a better investment for people speccing into IIT...

I haven't gotten a chance to raid with the spec yet, had to run with my shaman due to a lack of heroism.. But how's the RP with GoIT? From my experience in 5 mans the glyph doesn't seem very viable unless I'm sitting in UP.

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Old 08/09/09, 4:49 PM   #1079
Edurol
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Antonidas (EU)
My experiences with DW since 3.2 launch were positive, but due to the lack of training / bit of equip I think there could be squeezed out some more.

I was starting with 0/53/18 in 10-man Colo with the "Beasts of Northend" but I really had problems with the aggro... I was able to surpass a full Ulduar gear tank very quickly. So therefore I shifted 3 points from BCB, which really is lacking DPS, mostly not more than 2% in dmg, to Subversion in Blood. And it helped a lot! No more problems with Aggro, and Obliterate is pulling straight ahead, in many fights 60% or more hits are critical!

So as for some data... this screen was done in 10-man Colo straight after Gormok:


(sorry only german client)

1. Obliterate (70% critical!!)
2. FrostStrike
3. Melee
4. BloodStrike
5. Necrosis

Infight DPS was mostly around 5100, for the lack of raidbuffs a very pleasing outcome.
Just UA used one time, no army or any other huge cd used, was just a clean "tank 'n' spank" fight, we kept the important CDs for the worms

Next was Ulduar Heroic, went really good so here you go with the WoL Log:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

(unfortunately I got killed at Auriaya, Freya and Razorscale - need to get used to not using DS )

My armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

I am using Glyph of Disease because I now have the possibility to switch between rotation, wether we have an enhancer or not. And I am producing enough RP to get some FrostStrikes, most of the time to much to use... and the 3 points in subversion helped a lot. Especially for OB crit

Talking about aggro, anyone else had problems without subversion??
Similar / Different expereciences concerning Subversion / BCB?

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Old 08/09/09, 5:02 PM   #1080
Melchior
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by Sylari View Post
BCB damage seemed really low (.55% per point? ) Looks like subversion might be a better investment for people speccing into IIT...

I haven't gotten a chance to raid with the spec yet, had to run with my shaman due to a lack of heroism.. But how's the RP with GoIT? From my experience in 5 mans the glyph doesn't seem very viable unless I'm sitting in UP.
This is the kind of parse I was talking about - BCB just seems to swing pretty wide between RNG and relative amounts of haste. For my IIT build I decided to stick with Subversion because it was simply more consistent while providing the threat reduction.

As for the glyph, I've found that it is still useful while sitting in BP. When Rime decides to not proc for a while you can find time to drop the RP between OBs, and it isn't difficult to simply keep yourself from capping when Rime is being proc-heavy. It's also a bit better in fights where you have a lot of peels for DCs at range. The only other option I'd consider in that setup is the BS glyph, but you'd either have to have a regular FFB Mage or maybe a Druid MT.


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Old 08/09/09, 5:32 PM   #1081
IsaacSirene
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Cenarion Circle
For some reason, I'm having problems keeping Razorice on my target. It's a real killer to watch a 10 stack Razorice fall off the boss, is there any reason as to why this would happen? I am hit capped for special attacks, and Razorice is on my MH, so there should be no reason for it to fall off correct?

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Old 08/09/09, 5:40 PM   #1082
Zuu
Glass Joe
 
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Draenei Warrior
 
Ysera
For those of us speccing into IIT, is GoPS not a reasonable option? While we're only using Plague Strike once per rotation, and Plague Strike in itself is a bit lackluster, given that it is affected by ToT, would this not at least be a considerable option over GoIT?

Last edited by Zuu : 08/09/09 at 5:46 PM.

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Old 08/09/09, 5:49 PM   #1083
sweberry
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Darksorrow (EU)
As for IT glyph (in BP) it's already been discussed about the benefits of it and maths have been done to show that it is indeed worth it.

@Edurol: Am I seeing something wrong or did you only do 400 more dps (200 if you claim to have done 5100) between 10 man gormok and 25 man ignis? That seems kind of weird given the amount of raid buffs you should have.

About Subversion vs BCB I'm being more unsure about how good BCB is for us, since I see my BCB being ~4.6 or more on the XT parse but only ~2.5-2.7 on thorim and hodir (although thorim = aoe and hodir = other strikes buffed?). If I ever find I have threat problems at least I know the dps-loss will be very noticable.

Do we have any numbers from someone going from no subversion to subversion showing how the dps (and the critrate in raid) is changed?

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Old 08/09/09, 5:50 PM   #1084
dr_AllCOM3
Great Tiger
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Blutkessel (EU)
Originally Posted by Sylari View Post
BCB damage seemed really low (.55% per point? ) Looks like subversion might be a better investment for people speccing into IIT...

I haven't gotten a chance to raid with the spec yet, had to run with my shaman due to a lack of heroism.. But how's the RP with GoIT? From my experience in 5 mans the glyph doesn't seem very viable unless I'm sitting in UP.
It's almost 1% per point, reading is hard .
IT is still the best glyph. Without it you'll get rp starved and there are no alternatives.

Also keep in mind, that I don't have any hardmode weapons (since there are none).

Last edited by dr_AllCOM3 : 08/09/09 at 5:57 PM.


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Old 08/09/09, 6:01 PM   #1085
Sylari
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Cenarion Circle
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3 View Post
It's almost 1% per point, reading is hard .
IT is still the best glyph. Without it you'll get rp starved and there are no alternatives.

Also keep in mind, that I don't have any hardmode weapons (since there are none).
Whoops, I didn't notice the second instance of BCS in the report..

Kinda wondering how you're RP starving yourself in blood presence with GoIT though, I find myself almost always overcapping with the glyph in BP, especially if there's any AoE damage present.

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Old 08/09/09, 6:23 PM   #1086
dr_AllCOM3
Great Tiger
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Blutkessel (EU)
Originally Posted by Sylari View Post
Kinda wondering how you're RP starving yourself in blood presence with GoIT though, I find myself almost always overcapping with the glyph in BP, especially if there's any AoE damage present.
Well, I do with GoD.
I also tried UHP on the Council, where you can constantly use AMS. I was not better than BP. Maybe even with perfect AMS usage, but I'm not going to use it often. If I was successful with Blood in BP, then Frost will be the same.


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Old 08/09/09, 6:28 PM   #1087
Sylari
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Cenarion Circle
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3 View Post
Well, I do with GoD.
I also tried UHP on the Council, where you can constantly use AMS. I was not better than BP. Maybe even with perfect AMS usage, but I'm not going to use it often. If I was successful with Blood in BP, then Frost will be the same.

Must just be something weird with my numbers, or my godawful weaponry.. I haven't noticed a significant enough difference to rule out UHP, and I've seen it pull ahead most of the times when I'm on a movement/incoming magic damage intensive fight.

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Old 08/09/09, 6:44 PM   #1088
sweberry
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Darksorrow (EU)
@Döc: Reading really must be hard, at your algalon kill I see your both BCB strikes adding up to 1.9% which makes for 0.6333~% per point. On your Stormcaller log (why only log Stormcaller? If anything Steelbreaker is the fight where dps matters - assuming HM) it's 0.9%. 0.6-0.9 IS lower than what earlier has been said about it and Subversion has been called a 0.73%(?) dps per point.

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Old 08/09/09, 6:52 PM   #1089
dr_AllCOM3
Great Tiger
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Blutkessel (EU)
Originally Posted by sweberry View Post
@Döc: Reading really must be hard, at your algalon kill I see your both BCB strikes adding up to 1.9% which makes for 0.6333~% per point. On your Stormcaller log (why only log Stormcaller? If anything Steelbreaker is the fight where dps matters - assuming HM) it's 0.9%. 0.6-0.9 IS lower than what earlier has been said about it and Subversion has been called a 0.73%(?) dps per point.
I have 2/3 BCB.
It's Steelbreaker of course, I must have gotten confused . Only him to see how Frost performs on a bursty boss.


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Old 08/09/09, 6:57 PM   #1090
Sakuratei
Piston Honda
 
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Human Rogue
 
Frostmane (EU)
Originally Posted by sweberry View Post
@Döc: Reading really must be hard, at your algalon kill I see your both BCB strikes adding up to 1.9% which makes for 0.6333~% per point. On your Stormcaller log (why only log Stormcaller? If anything Steelbreaker is the fight where dps matters - assuming HM) it's 0.9%. 0.6-0.9 IS lower than what earlier has been said about it and Subversion has been called a 0.73%(?) dps per point.
What doc said above, and also you're doing the same mistake as Sylari did. The logs show one entry of BCB for main hand, and one for offhand. In the STeelbreaker logs the two respective numbers are 1,8% and 0,9%, making it 2,7% for two points.

Now, can we go back to discussing without opening our posts with literary insults?

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Old 08/09/09, 7:39 PM   #1091
sweberry
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Darksorrow (EU)
@Saku: I opened my post with a copy of Döcs statement as a mild and mannered sarcasm. And no, I made no such mistake, since i clearly wrote 0.9% per point which x3 makes 2.7%. The mistake I did was:

@Döc: 2/3, I see! That explains both my points, thanks. I wish I was at our council kill because I do see this spec performing better than that, did you save all your cooldowns, including army, until then?

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Old 08/09/09, 9:19 PM   #1092
concept84
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Darrowmere
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3 View Post
IT is still the best glyph. Without it you'll get rp starved and there are no alternatives.
I think its still a little too early to make this call, especially with the recent parses and evidence on WMO Top 20 of DW Frost succeeding with IT, Disease, and even HB glyph in the third slot.

In BP I've never once been starved for RP using either the IT glyph or Disease glyph, in fact its been the opposite. I have more RP than I know what to do with most of the time.

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Old 08/09/09, 10:14 PM   #1093
PristineChaos
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Doomhammer
Top 3 on Vezax Hard:

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay

Had no RP issues with GoDisease. I was interrupting, but had 2/2 Endless Winter will filller points so it did not really affect RP generation/expenditure.

One thing I don't understand is how Blood Plague is averaging so much more than Frost Fever with Razorice on.
Blood Plague did: avg = 809. FF = 681.

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Old 08/09/09, 10:34 PM   #1094
Asphyxialol
TEH DEEPZ!!!
 
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Human Paladin
 
Dalvengyr
Originally Posted by concept84 View Post
I think its still a little too early to make this call, especially with the recent parses and evidence on WMO Top 20 of DW Frost succeeding with IT, Disease, and even HB glyph in the third slot.

In BP I've never once been starved for RP using either the IT glyph or Disease glyph, in fact its been the opposite. I have more RP than I know what to do with most of the time.
It also becomes a circumstance on the fight itself, and the play style of the individual. Many fights you can make it by without the IT glyph by utilizing AMS (which a lot of individuals, myself included, don't chain together like we should). GoHB glyph has its bonuses, as a good example think of Freya and Thorim's arena, but HB generally doesn't do anywhere near the DPS that an GoIT or GoD build does (at least from my personal tests, this may be because I came from blood and have high armor pen rather than high AP). Based on play style and the individual fights different configurations of glyphs can be quite beneficial. Based on raid group makeup specs are still up in the air. When taking into consideration glyph choices and their potential on fights you have to assume what raid makeup someone will be running (more specific if Windfury is going to be dropped), or if more magic debuffs will be present in comparison to physical debuffs (in the OB vs HB debate - this is more of an issue in 10m), or the amount of mobs you will be encountering and the potential for AoE vs single target. I have been starved for RP in BP as my current 3/53/15 (more into Subversion over BCB later), but I take the opportunity to fill the slot with summoning a ghoul or using horn in place of waiting 1.5s for my next set of runes to come up, and this is even with IT glyph.

Now, back onto the builds discussion. I mentioned above that I am currently 3/53/15. Now, every parse I have seen puts BCB worth approximately 0.8-1.0% DPS per point (and personal tests show this as well). After some rough napkin math I found that 9% crit on OB is dominant to 3/3 BCB, not only in terms of damage, but in terms of functionality, as it removes a large portion of our threat per second (my math suggests subversion is worth about 3.2% dps).

Just curious to see what others have found on the subject of BCB vs Subversion.

edit:
I just took a look at this parse (url) as it is the highest damage done as 53/18 without UA to disturb average damage across abilities on General Vezax HM.

AbilityDamage Done Percent
Frost Strike603,98625.3%
Obliterate592,24524.8%
Melee457,85619.1%
Blood Plague118,7495.0%
Frost Fever115,4654.8%
Howling Blast112,9714.7%
Blood Strike98,6694.1%
Necrosis85,8313.6%
Icy Touch82,4633.4%
Plague Strike49,8162.1%
Blood Caked Blade48,8972.0%
Bandit's Insignia18,3780.8%
Razor Frost4,7560.2%
Total2,390,082 

Now, as shown BCB at 3/3 was worth 2.0% in this parse, this is not typical as the result at 3/3 is generally 2.4-3.3%. For a rough estimate on average (sparing all the random factors) we can figure that BCB is worth about 2.85% dps on average, or about 68,117 damage on this parse if it was more accurate. Obliterate has a default crit multiplier of 2x, however with an additional 45% crit from GoG, Obliterate now crits at a 2.9x multiplier (if my math is correct 2*1.45). In this case his average non-crit Obliterate MH was 3,209.2, and his average MH crit was 7,916, or a multiplier of 2.47. His average non-crit Obliterate OH was 2,086.4, and his average OH crit was 5,617 or a multiplier of 2.62. Both of the crit multiplier values are lower than the expected 2.9, so I will use his values instead of mine in calculations. Now, on this individual parse he had 131 Obliterates land, I am assuming due to latency issues or he landed a killing blow before the strike could go off, so for the sake of even numbers due to DW we will use the figure 132. In 132 obliterate lands he should receive an additional 11.88 Obliterate crits, or, for the sake of keeping this even, 6 MH and 6 OH crits. 6 MH crits would result in 34,977.6 damage, and 6 OH crits would result in 21183.6 damage, for a total of 56,161.2 damage.

To keep this short I won't bother going over what I did on Blood Strike calculations, but the average damage gain from 9% on Blood Strike is 9,492.9. Together with OB the total damage gain is 65,654. Now, the above parse shows BCB at 2% overall damage, but if it were at 3% like most calculations use it would be at 71,702. The difference is a mere 6,048 damage. However the difference here is that you gain 25% less threat via subversion, Obliterate gains damage through Merciless Combat, and the crit multipliers were off in all 4 calculations above (MH/OH Obliterate and Blood Strike) from the expected multiplier. BCB is subject to the same strike mechanics of other yellow hits and thus can be dodged, while subversion is a static 9% crit, providing a static benefit providing Obliterate hits.

This is all napkin math of course, the abilities core damage and crit damage wasn't found via a formula, just a single parse with the most amount of frequency I could find (ie no UA, no TotT, no Hysteria, etc.) without talents already in Subversion.

I am still very interested in hearing other peoples opinions on taking this over BCB, or their personal results.

Last edited by Asphyxialol : 08/10/09 at 12:10 AM.

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Old 08/09/09, 11:33 PM   #1095
Konata
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by PristineChaos View Post
Top 3 on Vezax Hard:

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay

Had no RP issues with GoDisease. I was interrupting, but had 2/2 Endless Winter will filller points so it did not really affect RP generation/expenditure.

One thing I don't understand is how Blood Plague is averaging so much more than Frost Fever with Razorice on.
Blood Plague did: avg = 809. FF = 681.

It probably because you do IT > PS. 809 is just abit 15% more damage than 681. If you want your diseases to be at its strongest with that build you need to reapply it when you get procs.

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Old 08/10/09, 12:32 AM   #1096
PristineChaos
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Doomhammer
Right. So basically this confirms Tundra Stalker does not apply unless Frost Fever is reapplied with IT as opposed to Pestilence while Frost Fever is already up.

Last edited by PristineChaos : 08/10/09 at 12:39 AM.

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Old 08/10/09, 12:32 AM   #1097
Sylari
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Cenarion Circle
@asphyxialol: I might be wrong, but my impression with GoG/OB was that it literally gave the spell a 245% crit modifier, which your numbers seem to represent.

Namely, it increases critical strike damage by 45%, not ability damage by 45% on a critical strike... so a critical strike is a 100% damage increase, 1 * 1.45 = 1.45, much like how Elemental shamans crit for double damage, the talent reads "increases critical strike damage bonus by 100% .. or doubling the 50% crit modifier, not doubling the 150% base crit damage.

I've seen similar results with Subversion vs BCB, although BCB is a bit more damage, 1-2 points in Subversion seem to be worthwhile ( at least in my limited raid experience, threat was a serious issue with 53/18 )

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Old 08/10/09, 12:41 AM   #1098
Asphyxialol
TEH DEEPZ!!!
 
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Human Paladin
 
Dalvengyr
Originally Posted by Sylari View Post
@asphyxialol: I might be wrong, but my impression with GoG/OB was that it literally gave the spell a 245% crit modifier, which your numbers seem to represent.

Namely, it increases critical strike damage by 45%, not ability damage by 45% on a critical strike... so a critical strike is a 100% damage increase, 1 * 1.45 = 1.45, much like how Elemental shamans crit for double damage, the talent reads "increases critical strike damage bonus by 100% .. or doubling the 50% crit modifier, not doubling the 150% base crit damage.

I've seen similar results with Subversion vs BCB, although BCB is a bit more damage, 1-2 points in Subversion seem to be worthwhile ( at least in my limited raid experience, threat was a serious issue with 53/18 )
Yes, I wasn't sure if it was additive or multiplicative, so I decided to skip that part and use actual numbers instead so that the math came out relatively accurate in the end. I do see how it would lean towards additive due to its wording: "Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Blood Strike, Frost Strike, Howling Blast and Obliterate abilities by 45%, and increases the duration of your Icebound Fortitude by 6 secs."

Some of the crit multipliers do show 2.6+ multipliers however, which I suppose could be because of a crit string with procs up, or something similar, which is the issue of using actual logs instead of raw math for these kinds of things. Just hoping someone has some previous math work laying around showing why BCB was superior to Subversion despite its seemingly random proc rate resulting in 2% to 3.3% dps on an overall parse and being rather sporadic when I don't believe Subversion would be quite as random, and thus overall a damage increase over BCB.

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Old 08/10/09, 2:20 AM   #1099
Edurol
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Antonidas (EU)
Originally Posted by sweberry View Post
@Edurol: Am I seeing something wrong or did you only do 400 more dps (200 if you claim to have done 5100) between 10 man gormok and 25 man ignis? That seems kind of weird given the amount of raid buffs you should have.

About Subversion vs BCB I'm being more unsure about how good BCB is for us, since I see my BCB being ~4.6 or more on the XT parse but only ~2.5-2.7 on thorim and hodir (although thorim = aoe and hodir = other strikes buffed?). If I ever find I have threat problems at least I know the dps-loss will be very noticable.

Do we have any numbers from someone going from no subversion to subversion showing how the dps (and the critrate in raid) is changed?
Getting in the POT is not very productive for DPS ^^

Anyway, I have also seen that 3 points in subversion turn out to be better than 3 points in BCB.
First thing came to my mind is - we have many white hit misses, which is not really that good for BCB.
The chance to proc BCB on a hit is kinda screwed with those many misses, I think this is why it turns out to just be worth 0.5 to 0.8% per point.

My numbers with BCB... in the 4 or 5 tries at "Beasts of Northend" I was only able to reach about 4600 dps without subversion, you can see that in the first screenshot I did that evening:


(without subversion but 3/3 BCB)

First problem was aggro and I did 2 or 3 dmg stops, and BCB also just turned out about 2.3% dmg. So after 3 tries I took the 3 points to subversion. Now I was able to push more DPS without dmg stops. As you can see in the following pic, Obliterate rose in dmg from 27.9% to 32.5% and from 44% critical to about 70% critical, and the DPS rose to about 5100 infight with UA CD used and some procluck of KM / Rime.


(with 3/3 subversion and without BCB)

Interesting fact is that our DPS is a bit unconstant, regarding procs of KM and Rime... those give a decent DPS boost for a short period. So regarding the length of an encounter with the number of procs of KM and Rime... you will have different numbers for DPS

So far for my experience with it. The thing I just ask myself is, if I was the only one with aggro problems?
Has anyone had similiar experiences?

@IcEWoLF

That is "Elkanos Buff Bars" and "XPerl"


Another thing about HIT, I was asked a lot in the last time in the german community:

We have 3% with nerves of cold steele... so would it be enough to just stack 5% with equipment?
Anyone made experiences there??

Last edited by Edurol : 08/10/09 at 3:01 AM.

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Old 08/10/09, 2:48 AM   #1100
Melchior
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by Asphyxialol View Post
Yes, I wasn't sure if it was additive or multiplicative, so I decided to skip that part and use actual numbers instead so that the math came out relatively accurate in the end. I do see how it would lean towards additive due to its wording: "Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Blood Strike, Frost Strike, Howling Blast and Obliterate abilities by 45%, and increases the duration of your Icebound Fortitude by 6 secs."

Some of the crit multipliers do show 2.6+ multipliers however, which I suppose could be because of a crit string with procs up, or something similar, which is the issue of using actual logs instead of raw math for these kinds of things. Just hoping someone has some previous math work laying around showing why BCB was superior to Subversion despite its seemingly random proc rate resulting in 2% to 3.3% dps on an overall parse and being rather sporadic when I don't believe Subversion would be quite as random, and thus overall a damage increase over BCB.
This was the conclusion I came to when choosing Subversion over BCB. I ran the first day as 0/53/18 and noticed very quickly the fairly wide discrepancy in average BCB damage, and when looking through different parses saw that most logs contained similar swings between fights. Given that haste numbers are going to go down compared to a spec like 0/17/54 in favor of stats like ArP, I felt like the DPS between the two talents was so close that I would prefer the talent that had a more beneficial secondary trait. It was also very consistent in terms of DPS gained compared to BCB.


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