DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand - Page 46

Foxx2405 · 07/31/09, 6:14 AM

@Spoonyou:
Strength is the best stat in nearly every case. The only exception being blood spec with extremly high AP.

The point about armor pentration is more made because most gear contains raw stats + ratings.
And armor penetration is one of the best rating we can get.

You're probably best off still gemming strength.

@phantazum:
I'm not 100% sure all values can be totally trusted, there have been some bugs in the past with expertise and hitrating.

@Jokeyrhyme:
Personally i have no objection that the 2 sigils are used almost equally on different specs. (Blood uses SotVH, as does unholy DC spam build).

I'm also not sure that rawr is using the 3.2 Razorice yet. It now increases frost damage by 10%.

My sims keep indicating that RI is somewhat better than FC on the offhand

phantazum · 07/31/09, 6:42 AM

Im aware of the expertise bugs but so far is a worthwhile stat to softcap on 2h builds and i would assume it holds true for DW.

As for Razorice, its just barely better then FC on the off hand but it needs a long fight to overtake FC. I would still choose FC over it just because trash and adds are also a part of raiding and FC will blow RI out of the water on short fights.

Foxx2405 · 07/31/09, 7:13 AM

Originally Posted by phantazum

Im aware of the expertise bugs but so far is a worthwhile stat to softcap on 2h builds and i would assume it holds true for DW.

As for Razorice, its just barely better then FC on the off hand but it needs a long fight to overtake FC. I would still choose FC over it just because trash and adds are also a part of raiding and FC will blow RI out of the water on short fights.

I can see the point on the FC vs Razorice concept. The dps difference i got was ranging between 100-200 dps though, so I think we'll have to test some more on this.

I agree that expertise is worth capping. Most of our damage comes from a couple of hardhitting obliterates. A miss on that is gonna lead to a big dps loss, much more than say a unholy DW DC spam build missing an attack.

Astalion · 07/31/09, 11:17 AM

Do we have any data on Razorice proc rate? Working on getting some numbers from PTR atm (seems to be coming out at ~30%), but if it's already been determined that would be helpful in figuring out just how long we have to stay on the same target for RI to be better than FC, and calculating risk of dropping the debuff when running out from say Shock Blast.

7alisman · 07/31/09, 11:48 AM

I brought this up a page or 2 back, about how i couldnt see RI coming up ahead vs a dual FC/FC over the average 3-5minute boss fight.

I understand the thought process the sims provide, but it also provides a simulation of XXX number of hours, where the is a strong leeway for RI to come ahead. However with movement\adds\multiple targets I just don't understand how RI is going to come out ahead.

The sims are designed to be as controlled as possible, and when it comes to rune forges a lot of it will come down to personal preference. However, as stated, over a long term sim, the odds are seriously stacked in RIs favor, and its only coming out 100-200 dps ahead, easily a number (especially over 500hrs) that could be larger\smaller based on player skill/fight knowledge etc etc.

TBH if you look through ulduar, there really arent to many fights where i could see RI coming out farther ahead than FC/FC with an 80%+ uptime. As previously stated in my last post, the str stacking that T9 is going to provide us is quite ridiculous and i am eager to play with it.

Seriously tho, if we are going to favor the obliterate spam, 20% ArP on top of the following STR stacking abilities, i think the numbers will change in real world raiding.

Darkmoon card: Greatness: 300 str
Deaths Verdict: 450 str
Sigil of Virulence: 200 str
DK 2PT9 set bonus: 180 str
= +1130 bonus strength

FC/FC: 80%+ uptime of +15% str

Factor in a base str of 1800 and your sitting at 2930 str (assuming the stars align) before FC procs, and with the proc that would put us in the realm of 3360+ str. Can anyone say "i win"? haha

However, as a side note, there is potential that some of these buffs could overwrite the other, although my assumption is that because they are all different str procs, that they will all stack together.

@ Astalion, I think it would be fantastic if we could figured out now long we have to be on target for RI to come ahead. In the end, these buffs will still benefit RI and with the fact that RI increases by a static percentage (10%) it will continue to scale. It will probably come down to dps active time on single target, or perhaps we'll find a FC/FC is best for trash mobs and an FC/RI is best for single target mob, and just have to swap weapons just the same as a good tank switches gear sets.

I would be very interested in looking at some math to support both sides, which someone entirely better at math will have to provide. But i think it will be relative to how long it takes us to get to 10 stacks, and the movement on particular fights.

dr_AllCOM3 · 07/31/09, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by 7alisman

I would be very interested in looking at some math to support both sides, which someone entirely better at math will have to provide. But i think it will be relative to how long it takes us to get to 10 stacks, and the movement on particular fights.

Ten stacks are a lot and even if it only drops once, RI would have to be notably better on Patchwerk bosses. Since those bosses don't exist anymore and OB seems to be better than FS, I'd prefer FC.

Astalion · 07/31/09, 12:46 PM

Testing seems to indicate a 30% proc rate for RI, regardless of weapon speed (around 2.5k hits with a 2.6 speed weapon, and about the same with a 1.5 speed) - or an average of 33.3 attacks to stack RI.
Some simulations to compare different runeforges gave me 117 dps from FC on OH, and 216 dps from RI (compared to no runeforge - note: the simulator might not support using no runeforge on the OH - even if you leave the field empty it seems to use the last used one - I corrected this in mine, but not sure if it's fixed in the official version) (Using Statset2)
The same simulations also gave me an estimate of 0.99 offhand attacks per second (notes: 2/3 BCB, no IIT, 2 2.7 speed weapons, 175 haste, using standard frost rotation), or 0.91 if BCB doesn't proc RI (it should do though). This should give an average of 33.6 (or 36.6) seconds to get RI up to 10 stacks.
The average benefit from RI during the stacking up period should be half the final effect (not counting the actual RI damage, just the debuff).
The above would mean the breaking point for RI > FC is at roughly 37 seconds on the same target.

Edit: I'll look into some simulations for figuring out the chance to drop off, possibly accounting for running away from the boss for a few seconds as well.

pintor · 07/31/09, 1:39 PM

Originally Posted by Astalion

Testing seems to indicate a 30% proc rate for RI, regardless of weapon speed (around 2.5k hits with a 2.6 speed weapon, and about the same with a 1.5 speed) - or an average of 33.3 attacks to stack RI.
Some simulations to compare different runeforges gave me 117 dps from FC on OH, and 216 dps from RI (compared to no runeforge - note: the simulator might not support using no runeforge on the OH - even if you leave the field empty it seems to use the last used one - I corrected this in mine, but not sure if it's fixed in the official version) (Using Statset2)
The same simulations also gave me an estimate of 0.99 offhand attacks per second (notes: 2/3 BCB, no IIT, 2 2.7 speed weapons, 175 haste, using standard frost rotation), or 0.91 if BCB doesn't proc RI (it should do though). This should give an average of 33.6 (or 36.6) seconds to get RI up to 10 stacks.
The average benefit from RI during the stacking up period should be half the final effect (not counting the actual RI damage, just the debuff).
The above would mean the breaking point for RI > FC is at roughly 37 seconds on the same target.

Edit: I'll look into some simulations for figuring out the chance to drop off, possibly accounting for running away from the boss for a few seconds as well.

Do strikes not proc RI? If so, that would reduce the time significantly.

Astalion · 07/31/09, 1:43 PM

@pintor: Strikes do proc RI, and were already accounted for.

Foxx2405 · 07/31/09, 3:28 PM

I ran 3 simulator runs with different weapon enchants.

Instead of setstat2 i used the current BiS blood gear though. The reason for this is that setstat2 is abit inflated, its more like endgame 3.2 gear. Whereas the BiS bloodgear should be a good indication for early T9 content.

Anyway the numbers i got were:
6652 dps for FC/RI
6537 dps for FC/FC
6517 dps for FC/CG

I just tested the last for fun, but it shows that RI is slightly ahead.

I have to fully agree with earlier made comments though that RI in a dynamic environment has a bigger chance of falling off, and the sim is in favor of RI as it assumes a patchwork'esque fight over a long duration.

So this is very encounter specific again. On a stand and nuke fight RI simply wins in terms of dps. But FC is far more effective on any fight where you might lose your RI stacks. Ideally you'll want 2 offhands with different enchants, but realistically that's not an option for most people and the dps difference is so small it hardly matters that much.

But you never know, i think for overal use that FC is better. But if you're learning an encounter that is fairly static, or a fight where you can have full stacks of RI for the majority of the fight, it might be best to go with RI.

Final note: a lot of ulduar bosses allow you to keep up a full stack of Frost Vulnerability (RI debuff) though. The debuff lasts 20 seconds. Which is enough for anything other than a boss with multiple phases or a fight with a ton of adds.
Boss by boss breakdown:
- Razorscale: the only thing that matters is the time he spends on the ground in phase 1, and phase 2 entirely. RI is probably weaker in phase 1, but in phase 2 should be good. I'd prefer FC for this one most likely though.
- Ignis: You can keep stacks up on him. Slagpot can be annoying but should not last long enough for all your stacks to drop, and even if they would the uptime would be more than high enough for RI to be better than FC
- XT: This is a tougher one, i assume that the heart and XT itself have seperate RI stacks. In this case for the burst on the heart RI is likely worse. However if you do hardmode, and you just burn him down RI should be better again. So this is probably a 50-50 situation also depending if you do hardmode or not (we usually do since its easy anyway).
- Council: RI is probably good enough here, there are overloads and (if you don't do hardmode) there is those big death runes, but those don't make you leave the boss for 20 seconds. The only issue RI has here is if you do normal mode with the small caster dude last. Since he does the lightning scooter thing.
- Kologarn: If you don't do "With Open Arms" FC is better here because of the constant switching. If you are doing "With Open Arms" RI doesn't have much disadvantage here.
- Auriya: We usually do crazy cat lady so RI would win here. Probably even if you don't do Crazy Cat Lady.
- Hodir: Razor Ice should stay up through flash freezes, freeing the iceblocks might be a bit of a hassle though. Hard to call
- Thorim: Phase 1 doesn't really matter but FC would win. In phase 2 RI would win.
- Freya: I'd say overal that FC is best here.
- Mimiron: In most phases you can just keep attacking the boss. The only time stacks should fall off is between phases, but that shouldnt hurt RI as much.
- Vezax: RI, period
- Yogg: Probably FC, with all the adds and the brain room. Yea, definitely FC.

- Algalon: Can't say until we've cleared 10 man Firefighter (3% wipe last thursday T_T).

Reflecting on this the general vibe I get is that it's either 50/50 (either would work), or one is favored for one phase and one for another phase. There are only 2-3 bosses that actually show favoritism for a certain enchant.

My guess: Go with what you like best, and if you are learning an encounter go with a boss specific setup. If you're lucky enough and you have a similar weapon (if one weapon is slightly better the benefit is already gone really), you could have both enchants ready for action.

Melchior · 07/31/09, 3:35 PM

20 second duration does give you a pretty decent leeway to get out of most of the raid mechanics that peel you off a target. On the other hand, the variable there is how long it takes for the peel to occur after the last application. Given the proc rate, I'm going to guess it will almost never be more than 5 seconds off the duration from last application, and even then 15 seconds is still a pretty good window. The situations that are actually longer than that probably can't favor FC much more considering it has similar potential waste factors (such as proccing just before the peel mechanic occurs).

concept84 · 07/31/09, 4:10 PM

Originally Posted by Foxx2405

I ran 3 simulator runs with different weapon enchants.

Instead of setstat2 i used the current BiS blood gear though. The reason for this is that setstat2 is abit inflated, its more like endgame 3.2 gear. Whereas the BiS bloodgear should be a good indication for early T9 content.

Anyway the numbers i got were:
6652 dps for FC/RI
6537 dps for FC/FC
6517 dps for FC/CG

- Algalon: Can't say until we've cleared 10 man Firefighter (3% wipe last thursday T_T).

Reflecting on this the general vibe I get is that it's either 50/50 (either would work), or one is favored for one phase and one for another phase. There are only 2-3 bosses that actually show favoritism for a certain enchant.

My guess: Go with what you like best, and if you are learning an encounter go with a boss specific setup. If you're lucky enough and you have a similar weapon (if one weapon is slightly better the benefit is already gone really), you could have both enchants ready for action.

Curious about the testing on current Blood BiS, do you find this higher on the sim than current Frost BiS?

Also, for Algalon there should be no issue for a DK to keep up full stacks of RI. There is no point during the encounter where the DK would be off the boss for more than 5-6 seconds. We don't bring a DK other than myself (and I tank it) to that encounter, but our Rogue is pretty much glued to Algalon's butt from start to finish.

sweberry · 07/31/09, 4:21 PM

I bet it's been mentioned in this thread already - even though I've been following it since the start - but what ilvl weapons do you use, do you assume 179 dpsers or are you using 3.2-drops?

edit: I obviously mean for your simming with the statsets.

concept84 · 07/31/09, 5:23 PM

Originally Posted by sweberry

I bet it's been mentioned in this thread already - even though I've been following it since the start - but what ilvl weapons do you use, do you assume 179 dpsers or are you using 3.2-drops?

edit: I obviously mean for your simming with the statsets.

It seems most, if not all the sims were being run with 200 DPS weps, but now statset2 is showing 180 dps weps.

Even if you cannot run your own sims (like myself) you can view the source code and stat sets for the sim.

http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t50274-k..._beta_0_9_6_a/

Follow this link and towards the bottom of the first post you'll see a link to the source code which contain the stat sets.

Foxx2405 · 07/31/09, 5:24 PM

@concept

I could use the frost BiS gear too, but they are not that far off to be honest. Frost has a bit more AP and expertise, whereas blood has more Armor penetration.
Not really sure why i picked the blood BiS gear though. I could input the frost bis set, but i doubt you'd see much of a difference really.

@sweberry:

Most of us currently use the setstat2 set (its one of the default sets in kahories simulator), it uses 2x 2.6 weapons with 200 dps.

BiS ulduar weapons are 189 dps (tank weapon) and 179 dps. (Unless there is some 190 dps weapon from a 25 hardmode that i missed).
I guess you can see 200 dps weapons as early T9 content weapons.

My blood BiS gear set uses 180 dps weapons since thats pretty much what i assume the currently best geared people to use.