If it is truly causing swamping and wasted RP that is 100% not useful the following glyphs add DPS/reasonable utility (order from mmo-champ's dropdown):
1. Death and Decay - increased DnD damage by 20%. Situational AoE damage boost.
2. Icebound Fortitude - if you pulled aggro, minimum 30% damage reduction might keep you up long enough to get that heal...or not.
3. Plague Strike - 20% damage to PS is better than no damage from GoIT.
4. Strangulate - Interrupts on casters don't suck. Even if many/all bosses are immune.
5. Unbreakable Armor - More damage absorbed. Same reasoning as #2 and remember: Dead guys do 0 DPS.
6. Ghoul - 40% more strength and stam translates to a bunch more ghoul damage for 1 of every 3 min. This is probably the best DPS glyph left after Oblit and Frost Strike.
I know this is pretty elementary for these forums, but people are looking at changing rotations and timing use of core skills because essentially they are wasting a glyph slot. This short breakdown is just to show what else is out there that allows more traditional playstyles and to point out that there are +DPS glyphs to replace IT with if people want. Somewhat farcically, you could also replace GoFrost Strike if you're really getting RP swamped, but that's generally going to be a DPS loss and thus irrelevant because nobody's going to get swamped that badly if they're playing well.
I've recently been getting back into the swing of things with my DK, now that I've got a competitive (and then some heh) DPS build to play with I noticed the RP abundance too, and while I initially looked at glyphs, from the simulator I was getting little to no returns from the glyphs. There were only three glyphs I could think of to try that would impact DPS - Glyph of Howling Blast, Glyph of Plague Strike, and Glyph of the Ghoul. Glyph of Plague Strike and Glyph of the Ghoul were a loss in DPS - they were just too small of a DPS increase to counter the also minor DPS increase from Glyph of Icy Touch. In theory, Glyph of Howling Blast provides a DPS increase, but in practice I couldn't get it to quite work out right - Rime procs are just too infrequent to use to keep Frost Fever up. I also ran into Rune Tap issues like others have experienced with their UA macros. Also, not only do we generate a lot of RP, but the other side is that we don't have enough GCD's to dump all of our RP. Switching in Glyph of Howling Blast removed both problems and seemed to swing things way too far the other way in practice, to the point where I was having downtime and a minor DPS loss.
However, one thing I did see - for the IIT build, rather then take 1 point out of Killing Machine, take 1 point out of Chill of the Grave. According to the Sim, it's actually a minor (~5) DPS increase, and in practice I've noticed no real decrease in RP. EDIT: To take UA of course.
1: I did not mean to claim at was scaling WELL. I'm meant so state that it DOES scale. It's not the best scaling talent at all - I give you that.
2: My point on the easier rotation? You're using 4 skills - howling blast, obliterate, blood strike and frost strike. It doesn't get much easer than that.
I run using only 1 disease - frost fever. It's applied using Howling Blast (glyph of course). I blood strike the blood runes and obliterate when they are death runes. I apply new diseases using rime. If the disease running out I use HB instead of obliterate.
It's THAT easy and there's no way I need epidemic to keep up 1 disease
Trust me - it works. I do know it scales slightly worse than the unholy tree but at the current gear level in the game it means pretty much nothing - 30 more DPS at 7.5k is just too little for me to bother and I actually think that the "easier" disease management and rotation offsets that margin.
In your second point, you mentioned that "My point on the easier rotation? You're using 4 skills - howling blast, obliterate, blood strike and frost strike. It doesn't get much easer than that."
I remember clearly a few posts before that you also mentioned that the Frost/Blood rotation was easier then the Frost/UH rotation. You don't use any different attacks between the two. The only difference I could think of is your are also allocating the HB glyph as its own part into the rotation?
If you do believe that the Frost/UH rotation is harder then the Frost/Blood rotation, why do you think so?
Originally Posted by Sadiera
I am not claiming otherwise. I'm merely pointing out that my tested results and my simulated results shows that
1: yes unholy scales slightly better
2: choosing blood talents over unholy offers an easier rotation
Calling T8.5 gear subpar is just... hmmm.... strange?
I'm currently using this 3/46/22 Frost/unholy build for single target dps. I've been doing dummy tests in both blood and unholy presence, my rotation and spec are closest to the 3/51/18 build posted in the first post here, and that advised using blood. (PS IT OB BS BS, dump, OB OB OB, dump)
When I do that, I do have a good rotation going getting my oblits in exactly on the timers of my diseases.
But I've noticed that in unholy presence I do more dps, even tho I am left with a gap of around 1.5 seconds.
In the 'old' frost (2H) build I used I was advised to use unholy presence if I had the 4t7.5 set bonus and it seemed to work out perfectly, from what I remember. And now I'm getting gaps.
This is what happens: (PS IT OB BS BS, dump, _gap_ OB OB _gap_ OB, dump)
Is there anything I might be missing that's causing this gap? I can't figure it out. I keep having the feeling that I should get 1 more frost strike out of it somewhere to make it a perfect rotation...
My Armory page
(Hopefully it's updated soon, still showing my blood spec)
>>
edit:
Another question. I'm almost at the tier8.5 headpiece through badges, that would put me at 2t7 / 2t8. I think that would make Blood Presence better again, but would I need the IT glyph for a proper rotation on that, or could I reglyph to Ghoul...
(I'm not goot at the theorycrafting thing, I just know the rotationthings)
In your second point, you mentioned that "My point on the easier rotation? You're using 4 skills - howling blast, obliterate, blood strike and frost strike. It doesn't get much easer than that."
I remember clearly a few posts before that you also mentioned that the Frost/Blood rotation was easier then the Frost/UH rotation. You don't use any different attacks between the two. The only difference I could think of is your are also allocating the HB glyph as its own part into the rotation?
If you do believe that the Frost/UH rotation is harder then the Frost/Blood rotation, why do you think so?
There we go, found it.
My first post I stated the rotation but I'll repeat:
Cycle 1: OB-OB-BS-BS-Dump
Cycle 2: OB-OB-OB-Dump
At any point during the cycles there's no frost fever on the target replace an Obliterate with a Howling Blast. Most of the time the disease will be refreshed using a Rime-HB though.
This rotation is pretty damn simple. And the simplicity of this build is what makes up for the slight DPS loss. The good part of this one is also on trash packs. These fights are usually short and your disease is setup instantly and you're ready to Obliterate.
It works out very well - try it and it might surprise you
I have a question. Is the new Sigil of Virulence worth getting over the Sigil of Awareness or Vengeful Heart? In case you aren't familiar with the Sigil of Virulence, it has a chance to proc 200 strength every time you hit with Oblit (or SS).
But I've noticed that in unholy presence I do more dps, even tho I am left with a gap of around 1.5 seconds. In the 'old' frost (2H) build I used I was advised to use unholy presence if I had the 4t7.5 set bonus and it seemed to work out perfectly, from what I remember. And now I'm getting gaps.
This is what happens: (PS IT OB BS BS, dump, _gap_ OB OB _gap_ OB, dump)
It could be that last time you played with that twohand spec was before the T7.5 set bonus was changed from 10 bonus RP to 5. Having missed attacks should give you less gaps as you have to use another GCD to make the ability land. You can see discussions about RP swamping and GCD usage a few pages back, the short answer is that the GCD's fit blood presence nearly perfect unless you get Rime procs, so it is natural for unholy presence to have idle gaps.
As for your other question, it is also covered in aforementioned discussion. The IT glyph is needed to fill (nearly) all GCD's in blood presence. Although, we haven't done the hard math on DPS difference between the IT glyph and other options yet.
My first post I stated the rotation but I'll repeat:
Cycle 1: OB-OB-BS-BS-Dump
Cycle 2: OB-OB-OB-Dump
At any point during the cycles there's no frost fever on the target replace an Obliterate with a Howling Blast. Most of the time the disease will be refreshed using a Rime-HB though.
This rotation is pretty damn simple. And the simplicity of this build is what makes up for the slight DPS loss. The good part of this one is also on trash packs. These fights are usually short and your disease is setup instantly and you're ready to Obliterate.
It works out very well - try it and it might surprise you
But, once 4set T9 is available - you will be missing out.
Im personally getting used to a 54/17 rotation, one with GoD and one without. This gives you the option to give the raid a haste buff, or keep it to yourself (If you have a enh sham) to increase dps, since you can use an extra OB and 1 less GCD.
Raidwise, this would be the optimal choice(s) for that spec. Or, you could not be cheap and buy glyphs accordingly - have have you're other spec to tank with or use a differenct spec that suits the fight.
Originally Posted by Sakuratei
As for your other question, it is also covered in aforementioned discussion. The IT glyph is needed to fill (nearly) all GCD's in blood presence. Although, we haven't done the hard math on DPS difference between the IT glyph and other options yet.
I was thinking about this earlier - Once I can get on wow I'll have a look for myself and post results.
It could be that last time you played with that twohand spec was before the T7.5 set bonus was changed from 10 bonus RP to 5. Having missed attacks should give you less gaps as you have to use another GCD to make the ability land. You can see discussions about RP swamping and GCD usage a few pages back, the short answer is that the GCD's fit blood presence nearly perfect unless you get Rime procs, so it is natural for unholy presence to have idle gaps.
As for your other question, it is also covered in aforementioned discussion. The IT glyph is needed to fill (nearly) all GCD's in blood presence. Although, we haven't done the hard math on DPS difference between the IT glyph and other options yet.
Thanks for the quick answer.
I guess seeing as unholy does turn out to be more dps for me with the current gear setup, I'll have those idle gaps for moving around etc in actual non-dummy fights. Could turn out to be quite handy.
My first post I stated the rotation but I'll repeat:
Cycle 1: OB-OB-BS-BS-Dump
Cycle 2: OB-OB-OB-Dump
At any point during the cycles there's no frost fever on the target replace an Obliterate with a Howling Blast. Most of the time the disease will be refreshed using a Rime-HB though.
This rotation is pretty damn simple. And the simplicity of this build is what makes up for the slight DPS loss. The good part of this one is also on trash packs. These fights are usually short and your disease is setup instantly and you're ready to Obliterate.
It works out very well - try it and it might surprise you
This GoDisease rotation is as follows:
OB-OB-BS-PT-Dump
OB-OB-OB-Dump
It has the same GCDs and just as simple of a rotation, but with both diseases. With either you are using your Rime procs. The gain of the 2nd disease definitely makes up for the loss of BS in the rotation. Since all the DW Frost variations are so small, I have no doubt that your spec can be somewhat competitive, but it still falls short of the other third glyph choices.
I agree that HB glyph could be great on trash packs, but who really wants to optimize their dps for trash?
It has the same GCDs and just as simple of a rotation, but with both diseases. With either you are using your Rime procs. The gain of the 2nd disease definitely makes up for the loss of BS in the rotation. Since all the DW Frost variations are so small, I have no doubt that your spec can be somewhat competitive, but it still falls short of the other third glyph choices.
I agree that HB glyph could be great on trash packs, but who really wants to optimize their dps for trash?
If you need to provide IIT, or even may need to, and GoD goes out the window, GoHB if used properly is probably the best of the options for the 3rd glyph. Using it properly though is non-trivial.
Originally Posted by OriginalMemnock
I have a question. Is the new Sigil of Virulence worth getting over the Sigil of Awareness or Vengeful Heart? In case you aren't familiar with the Sigil of Virulence, it has a chance to proc 200 strength every time you hit with Oblit (or SS).
Simmed out for me as a very mild upgrade, or a sidegrade. Probably has more use in AE situations.
Unbreakable Armor also gives +25% STR for 20 sec and is thus a DPS talent, but I didn't see anyone talented it for DPS.
I switched 1 point of talent from BCB to UA and RAWR simulation gives me +16 dps increase.
Therefore I suggest the build should be like this DW Frost build.
Yes, I wasn't sure if it was additive or multiplicative, so I decided to skip that part and use actual numbers instead so that the math came out relatively accurate in the end. I do see how it would lean towards additive due to its wording: "Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Blood Strike, Frost Strike, Howling Blast and Obliterate abilities by 45%, and increases the duration of your Icebound Fortitude by 6 secs."
As noted, GoG makes OB etc. do 245% damage on a crit; the wording is the same as the vast majority of talents that increase the critical damage multiplier, such as Impale, Lethality, MoM, Ice Shards. Compare to talents like Predatory Instincts or Prey on the Weak for talents with different behavior and wording. Adding in CSD/RED, OB critical damage becomes 252.35% of non-crit damage.
-Unbreakable armor is a quality investment for a single point, most of the builds in this section don't have it due to problems with the simulator using it correctly. Feel free to alter the below builds by a point to obtain unbreakable armor. Killing machine is the best talent to remove points from to obtain UA.
And acording to some posts in this thread, BCB should also be a nice choice to remove points from.
@Clat: Info on UA and why it's not in the specs on the OP can be read... on the OP. Please read before you ask or mention stuff that's been discussed _alot_ already.
@Odii: Claiming GoHB is the second best 3rd glyph for pure DPS is something I don't think you should claim until you show us numbers for that.
And if Glyph of Howling Blast can produce a decent single target gain for the glyph slot, along with the added benefit of being able to run one disease on multi target fights or fights which make you target switch or reengage frequently enough to cause RP swamping and produce great results... it sounds like a pretty solid third glyph, considering the variety of fights these days, no?
As for your other question, it is also covered in aforementioned discussion. The IT glyph is needed to fill (nearly) all GCD's in blood presence. Although, we haven't done the hard math on DPS difference between the IT glyph and other options yet.
Hmm I still don't quite get this.
If you do:
1 IT
1 PS
2 BS
4 Ob
per rotation
You generate 15+10*3+20*4 = 125 RP without IT glyph.
That is 3.90 FS. Glyph of IT would push that to 4.22 FS. I could see how Glyph of IT can be beneficiary in this void setting. But with 4 obliterates the chance to get at least 1 rime is about 80%. Would it really add up in the end ?
[e]: Hmm i forgot there is a flexible extra GCD you could use, making it 13 GCD per 20 seconds, in that case i could see the benefit of glyph of IT. This glyph loses a lot of power in any non tank-spank fight though. Any fight with AMS / Movement. I generally don't have the idea i want more RP, but that might just be me.
As for the glyph of Howling Blast discussion, I personally like it for 5 mans and trash.
It has a dps benefit on bosses as well, but it's rather hard to calculate.
Basically your rotation becomes:
Ob>Ob>PS>XX
Ob>Ob>BS>XX
Whenever you get a rime proc you use HB on XX, otherwise you use IT if FF < 10 sec or BS if FF > 10 sec.
Now in practice if you get a rime proc you're most likely going to use it anyway, so you lose you probably trade that IT for a FS (since you gain a GCD).
Shouldn't 4 OBs make the chance of a Rime-proc be exactly 60% though. And as you said there's the extra GCD + not having to wait @ setup of rotation + I can see it being beneficiary on movement-fights, like say yogg brain tentacles and you waste your strikes on one move to next and got RP to dump 3-4 FS's on it. I really don't see many down sides with it.
EDIT: Of course Sakuratei's maths are correct, 4x 15% chance is NOT 60% obviously. Still shows that the chance is even lower.
Foxx: The main difference between the GoIT and your usage of GoHB is that GoIT uses an extra GCD to perform HB, your version swaps out an already used GCD to perform HB. So yeah, you gain a GCD, but you don't gain enough RP to fill it out on every rotation.
Also, the chance to proc Rime on four obliterates is not 80% as far as I know, using likelihood maths (as I remember them) the likelihood to cast four Obliterates without proccing Rime is 0,85^4 = 0,522, making the chance to proc Rime on four Obliterates roughly 48%.
Foxx: The main difference between the GoIT and your usage of GoHB is that GoIT uses an extra GCD to perform HB, your version swaps out an already used GCD to perform HB. So yeah, you gain a GCD, but you don't gain enough RP to fill it out on every rotation.
Also, the chance to proc Rime on four obliterates is not 80% as far as I know, using likelihood maths (as I remember them) the likelihood to cast four Obliterates without proccing Rime is 0,85^4 = 0,522, making the chance to proc Rime on four Obliterates roughly 48%.
Unless they changed it, doesn't Rime still have a chance to proc of both hands ?
That would make it a 0.15 + 0.15 - (0.15*0.15) = 0.275 = 27.5% chance to proc per obliterate.
With 4 obliterates that would make 0.725^4 = 0.276, making the chance 72.4%
Granted still not 80%, but still quite high.
Maybe they fixed this though, in which case you're right.
HB Glyph calculations
As far as glyph of howling blast goes, its nearly impossible to simulate, so we can't really calculate how well it would be performing.
The only way I can see the calculation for measuring it up would be to to theorycraft exactly what you gain and lose.
Odii (if i remember correctly) posted this a while back, but the rotation would be:
Ob>Ob>XX>YY
Where YY is alternating PS and BS, XX is alternating HB/IT/BS
XX is somewhat harder, its a (assuming rime has a double chance to proc per Ob) 48% chance to be HB (1-0.725^2).
IT and BS are slightly harder to calculate, but it should come down to this:
If your first XX was a howling blast then the second XX will always either be BS or HB, afterall your disease timer is still on 10 seconds. If your second XX was a BS (no rime proc), then your third XX will either be HB or IT (after all diseases will run out, if you get rime you'll use HB ofc).
That means the chance to cast IT is the chance to not have any rime procs for 6 obliterates in row.
0.752 ^ 6 = 0.18
So that concludes to:
48% chance on HB
18% chance on IT
34% chance on BS
How to go further from here is even harder.
It's not simply a matter of giving up 1 IT and gaining (0.48*HBdmg + 0.18*ITdmg + 0.34*BSdmg) because the normal rotation still uses HB as well. If the normal rotation uses a HB they give up a FS instead.
So I'm not 100% but i guess the correct comparison would be something along the lines of:
Normal rotation:
0.48 * ( IT damage + HB damage )
0.52 * ( IT damage + FS damage )
However this is not considering KM. A normal rotation will only use rime-HB when KM is also up. As the HB glyph rotation does not lose a FS but a IT or BS (both inferior to HB) you theoretically always use HB if rime is up.
Therefor the normal rotation's does not have 48% chance to use IT+HB but somewhat less, and that HB will have a 100% crit rate.
However i dont have time to consider that as well.
I was under the impression from testing in this thread that GoDisease does not refresh the icy talons or tundra stalker. Doesn't that pretty much kill that glyph from any kind of use (more so for the 15% damage loss from tundra stalker)?
Icy Talons is no refreshed by GoDisease, but tundra stalker is (in fact, tundra stalker is applied even if someone else's FF is on your target). While this limits the uses of GoDisease by requiring you to have another source of the 20% melee haste buff, it in no way eliminates its functionality.
Glyph of Disease does not refresh the Icy Talons haste effect, but it works properly with Tundra Stalker - the target has Frost Fever, after all. Because of the way TS works you will have to reapply FF normally once to get the TS bonus for that disease, though.
If you are charged with providing the melee haste buff, though, it's a wash, yes.
Originally Posted by Apate
Yeah, I'm barely OK with myself being in the room while I have sex
08/10/09, 5:31 PM
I noticed the RP abundance too, and while I initially looked at glyphs, from the simulator I was getting little to no returns from the glyphs. There were only three glyphs I could think of to try that would impact DPS - Glyph of Howling Blast, Glyph of Plague Strike, and Glyph of the Ghoul. Glyph of Plague Strike and Glyph of the Ghoul were a loss in DPS - they were just too small of a DPS increase to counter the also minor DPS increase from Glyph of Icy Touch. In theory, Glyph of Howling Blast provides a DPS increase, but in practice I couldn't get it to quite work out right - Rime procs are just too infrequent to use to keep Frost Fever up. I also ran into Rune Tap issues like others have experienced with their UA macros. Also, not only do we generate a lot of RP, but the other side is that we don't have enough GCD's to dump all of our RP. Switching in Glyph of Howling Blast removed both problems and seemed to swing things way too far the other way in practice, to the point where I was having downtime and a minor DPS loss.
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