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Old 07/31/09, 5:51 PM   #691
sweberry
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Darksorrow (EU)
I'm aware of what stat sets you run I was just curious about the ilvl of the weapon. Obviously you were unsure about this too concept so might have been good for more people than me to mention it.

Are you sure that is a wise thing to do though Foxx? Wouldn't it be smarter to have the BiS-pre-3.2-set run with 2x 179 dpsers (since the only 188 dpser i know of is Sorthalis, that has a speed of 1.6) & the post 3.2 statset use 3.2 weapons (I'm not sure what kind of ilvl you would aim for, early or late etc). Is there even an ilvl of weapon with a 200 dps? I just think it's better to be totally accurate with these things than just assume 180 (no weapon has exactly 180!) or 200.

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Old 07/31/09, 7:02 PM   #692
Adamas1
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Madoran
So, Judging off these sims that you are doing Foxx, is the DW completely OP compared to something like blood with all the correct stat weights, and some BiS gear? Or is it almost idiotic to stay blood rather than hit up DW?

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Old 07/31/09, 7:48 PM   #693
phantazum
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Thaurissan
Hard to say. I have been in a few raids and pulled top dps in each one, even the caster heavy ones but unfortunately the PTR is swarmed with premades. I could play with my buttcheeks and outdps a premade. I do more DW dps on the ptr than i do on live with 2h blood, that much is certain. This bothers me, i wouldnt be surprised if DW gets nerfed shortly after it goes live.

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Old 07/31/09, 7:53 PM   #694
dr_AllCOM3
Great Tiger
 
dr_AllCOM3's Avatar
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Blutkessel (EU)
I use custom made chars and priorities for each spec (modified my spreadsheet, so I can simply copy&paste a char), so I don't have to use unfitting premade chars.
My results seem to vary a lot with increasing latency. With 50ms, I should have that ingame, it's Unholy spam>Frost DW>Blood. Changing the latency to 150ms gives me Frost DW>Unholy spam>Blood.
Frost DW also produces a lot of threat, maybe a 3/5x/xx spec is the best.
I don't really trust those results. Right now Blood is the best spec, but the theorycrafting doesn't fully reflect that. Well, let's wait for some live results .

The 178dps->188dps weapon upgrade is about 100dps total.


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Old 07/31/09, 8:04 PM   #695
sweberry
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Darksorrow (EU)
50 ms on a sim is just too low even if that is what you usually have ingame, you'll have to factor in the human factor.

About what's absolutely best that's just hard to determine at the moment, the unholy 2H theorycrafting is going kind of slow but a new spec just came up with ~7k using the 2nd statset - blood i have no clue about. We will just have to wait and see, or rather: keep testing and see.

Edit: spelling.

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Old 07/31/09, 8:18 PM   #696
phantazum
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Thaurissan
Originally Posted by sweberry View Post
50 ms on a sim is just too low even if that is what you usually have ingame, you'll have to factor in the human factor.

About what's absolutely best that's just hard to determine at the moment, the unholy 2H theorycrafting is going kind of slow but a new spec just came up with ~7k using the 2nd statset - blood i have no clue about. We will just have to wait and see, or rather: keep testing and see.

Edit: spelling.
You cant add in human factor with any kind of accuracy no matter how hard you try. The latency isnt there to make it more human, its there just for what it says, latency. Other people may think they are making it more human but you cant make the sim to worse because its tired, because its moral is shot or because its got a mod acting up.

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Old 07/31/09, 8:45 PM   #697
jokeyrhyme
Glass Joe
 
jokeyrhyme's Avatar
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Barthilas
Okay, another Rawr post. I know Rawr isn't as accurate as the simulator, but from my testing and your comments it only seems rough in a few places and let's face it: Rawr is easier for noobs like me to use. I editted V. Heart in Rawr so it has the current PTR nerfed value.

These tests are all done in my current gear (you can armory me, highlights are Death's Bite(FC)+Awareness) except where stated, and I've been buffed with Horn of Winter, Imp. Mark of the Wild, Imp. Icy Talons, B. Kings. I've only got roughly 9% ArP as of writing this.

The reason I did these tests specifically was because I am a huge fan of Unholy Presence, and going back to a 1.5sec GCD makes me feel a little sad. Also, I believe Blizzard has always wanted us to use all of our diseases, and only wants us to DW in a deep Frost build, so I'm not looking at other alternatives here. I'm basically trying to zero in on how my playstyle is going to change come-3.2.

Live Unholy Presence + Awareness (estimate of my current state)
3.1 mode, standard 17/51/3 build
2 diseases, 20sec, 1xIT, 1xPS, 1xHB, 4xOB, 2xBS, autoFS
Death's Bite (FC)
3121 DPS

3.2 Unholy Presence + Awareness (best 3.2 option for me)
3.2 mode with ToT, 0/53/18 build (full KM+BCB, no UA/DC)
2 diseases, 20sec, 1xIT, 1xPS, 1xHB, 4xOB, 2xBS, autoFS
2x Razorscale Talons
RI+RI = 4773 DPS
FC+RI = 4774 DPS
FC+FC = 4783 DPS

3.2 Blood Presence + Awareness
3.2 mode with ToT, 0/53/18 build (full KM+BCB, no UA/DC)
2 diseases, 20sec, 1xIT, 1xPS, 0.5xHB, 4xOB, 2xBS, autoFS
2x Razorscale Talons
RI+RI = 4468 DPS
FC+RI = 4472 DPS
FC+FC = 4482 DPS

Now, obviously there's no priority system in place in Rawr, so I can't tell it that I'm saving Rime procs for Howling Blasts or Frost Strike or anything. And those Blood Presence numbers are off, as I've seen the simulator outputs and believe the math that shows Blood Presence generally beating Unholy Presence by a few percent.

I checked using Razorice with Cinderglacier, and it was always 150-200 DPS lower than the next best option.
I compared the 0/53/18 build with a few variations on builds with a Blood sub-spec, but they were always 100-150 DPS lower.

I compared V. Heart to Awareness, and it was always 50-100 DPS lower, but obviously favoured enchants including Razorice. It will definitely be worth re-running just these numbers once Rawr knows that Razorice is a 10% buff to Frost instead of just 5%.

Anyway, according to Rawr I have a decent buff coming which is nice. I'd say most of that is from the massive leap from a Naxx10 weapon to 2x Ulduar10 ones. Incidentally, if I switch to these weapons and a BCB build right now, I'll only lose roughly 150 DPS. :P I think I just might do this and see how I go.

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Old 07/31/09, 8:56 PM   #698
Spoonyou
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Death Knight
 
Dark Iron
Originally Posted by phantazum View Post
@Spoonyou
No one said that strength was a lesser stat than armor pen.

AttackPower = 100
Strength = 258
Agility = 116
CritRating = 163
HasteRating = 141
ArmorPenetrationRating = 200
ExpertiseRating = 289
HitRating = 353
SpellHitRating = 138
WeaponDPS = 646
WeaponSpeed = 27692
2T7 = -4
4T7 = -4
2T8 = 0
4T8 = 9
2T9 = 0

Expertise is the most surprising thing. From what i hear its good to max it out along with hit. I cant remember what that number is though.
Hit is rated at 353 until special ability cap only, right? What's it rated for white hits after special cap?

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Old 07/31/09, 9:28 PM   #699
phantazum
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Thaurissan
Originally Posted by Spoonyou View Post
Hit is rated at 353 until special ability cap only, right? What's it rated for white hits after special cap?
No idea. You will have to wait for someone with greater math skills than I to figure that one out. Also dont take my test of the bible, more tests need to be ran with more up to date versions of the sim before we can decide on stat weights.

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Old 07/31/09, 9:46 PM   #700
Foxx2405
Don Flamenco
 
Foxx2405's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by sweberry View Post
I'm aware of what stat sets you run I was just curious about the ilvl of the weapon. Obviously you were unsure about this too concept so might have been good for more people than me to mention it.

Are you sure that is a wise thing to do though Foxx? Wouldn't it be smarter to have the BiS-pre-3.2-set run with 2x 179 dpsers (since the only 188 dpser i know of is Sorthalis, that has a speed of 1.6) & the post 3.2 statset use 3.2 weapons (I'm not sure what kind of ilvl you would aim for, early or late etc). Is there even an ilvl of weapon with a 200 dps? I just think it's better to be totally accurate with these things than just assume 180 (no weapon has exactly 180!) or 200.
Originally Posted by Adamas1 View Post
So, Judging off these sims that you are doing Foxx, is the DW completely OP compared to something like blood with all the correct stat weights, and some BiS gear? Or is it almost idiotic to stay blood rather than hit up DW?
Originally Posted by Spoonyou View Post
Hit is rated at 353 until special ability cap only, right? What's it rated for white hits after special cap?
@swe
For my BiS blood gear i used the 179 dps weapons, well ok i admit i put in 180, but i just like rounded numbers. Its not gonna make a huge difference.

The reason we use setstat2 is because everyone has it by default when they download the simulator, so there is no need for messing about with stats and possibly get wrong results (most mistakes are made in editing the character stats, especially on the AP contribution (only raw AP, not the stuff from strength) and expertise (because people mistake expertise for expertise rating etc and get things messy).

If you download the simulator (assuming your computer can run it), you simply select setstat2, you have to build most of the DW builds manually (which shouldnt be a problem there is a build in talent calculator), the "Frost" rotation should be right at the get go so you don't have to fundle with that either (although you can ofc).
And then you select blood presence, you sigil, you runeforges, you input 200 ms (or whatever) latency, and how long you want the sim to run in hours (50h is a fast run that takes about a minute to calculate, a 500h run is long and takes a few minutes)

But thats why we use the premade setstat so that everyone can jump in and mess about.

@adam
It's hard to say for sure.

But using BiS blood gear for both 51/0/20 and 0/53/18 i get these numbers (2h weapon used was aesir's edge)

SpecDPS
2H blood6056
DW frost6549

Simulator wise it seems that DW is indeed better than 2H. Which is something quite annoying.

Blizzard never wanted DW to become king dps again (something its looking to be, especially since DW scales better in general).
So I expect some nerfs the next patch (or maybe even before 3.2 launches).

Again this is nothing conclusive, its just a fast test. But i get the feeling that a lot of people realize that DW is gonna be up there with the 2H specs.

@spoon:
It says right below:

Spellhitrating: 138

Thats between the special hit cap and the spell hitcap.

After the spellhitcap hitrating becomes nearly worthless. Maybe something around the 60.

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Old 07/31/09, 10:01 PM   #701
midnightwinter
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Scarshield Legion (EU)
Hmm, I had a look but perhaps it's exhaustion that's stopping me finding the clear answer....
What sort of hit rating should I gear for ideally in a 3/51/17 spec? Should I be aiming to spellhit cap? Is that at all important? Or should I leave it at 8% for specials? Saying that, does the hit from DW talents contribute towards capping specials? Should I be gearing for (and to me this doesn't seem likely) 5% hit and then going all out on dps stats?

Sorry to be annoying, this has possibly been answered already, but I've been tweaking my gear setup in preparation for 3.2 and wondering if I should be swapping out some hit gear.

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Old 08/01/09, 1:14 AM   #702
Funknight
Glass Joe
 
Undead Death Knight
 
Kul Tiras
Just curious

After all the smoke settles and people get to see what the changes are like live, is the current cookie cutter Blood dps build going to be viable anymore? The dw spec sounds like it would be more interesting to play, but having to suck on the dm until I could pick up a couple of good 1h weapons is'nt all that appealing of an idea.

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Old 08/01/09, 3:16 AM   #703
Dauraane
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
Eonar
Originally Posted by midnightwinter View Post
Hmm, I had a look but perhaps it's exhaustion that's stopping me finding the clear answer....
What sort of hit rating should I gear for ideally in a 3/51/17 spec? Should I be aiming to spellhit cap? Is that at all important? Or should I leave it at 8% for specials? Saying that, does the hit from DW talents contribute towards capping specials? Should I be gearing for (and to me this doesn't seem likely) 5% hit and then going all out on dps stats?

Sorry to be annoying, this has possibly been answered already, but I've been tweaking my gear setup in preparation for 3.2 and wondering if I should be swapping out some hit gear.

As any spec you want to at least hit the soft hit cap(8%). For DW, however, most of your dmg comes from white attacks and having more hit then the soft cap is very good. Getting spell hit capped should not be on your list of things-to-do because in a raid(25 man atleast) you should easily achieve the spell hit cap.

I'm not completely sure about the DW talent contributing towards special hit cap so someone please correct me if im wrong, but if i remember correctly it doesn't contribute. The talent states "increases your chance to hit with one-handed melee weapons by _%". I say it doesn't because it only says melee weapons rather then special attacks like it does for the rogue talent called "Precision: Increases your chance to hit with weapon and poison attacks by _%." Meaning all attacks done by the weapons the rogue is using have a higher chance to hit.

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Old 08/01/09, 4:31 AM   #704
Astalion
Von Kaiser
 
Human Rogue
 
Quel'Thalas (EU)
NoCS does affect special attacks, so you'll only need 5% to cap those.
Originally Posted by Dauraane View Post
Getting spell hit capped should not be on your list of things-to-do because in a raid(25 man atleast) you should easily achieve the spell hit cap.
You only get 3-4% spellhit from raid buffs out of 17% needed. With Virulence you'll need 263-289 hit rating for spellhit cap, which is a lot more than needed for special attacks with a DW build - it's not really worth going out of your way to get for a 3/51/17 spec without glyph of disease, but nearly mandatory for those using it.

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Old 08/01/09, 4:34 AM   #705
sweberry
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Darksorrow (EU)
@Foxx:
I'm well aware of how Kahorie's simulator works (been using it for live for ages but not tested the 3.2-one yet), but thanks. What I was curious about was simply at what lvl of gear this statset is likely to be compared to, if it matches BiS Ulduar-gear or more of the 3.2 loot. Also what ilvl of the weapon as this should in my opinion match the ilvl you sim for 2H with. Like with your blood/DW-test here, if you used 200 dpsers like you said was in the simulator as standard that's higher than Aesir's Edge.

Also, are you in to the blood scene? Is 51/0/20 actually still the preferred bloodspec for 3.2? If these numbers are correct it seems even unholy is passing blood on single target dps - it just seems weird.

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