DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand - Page 48

Foxx2405 · 08/01/09, 6:09 AM

Originally Posted by midnightwinter

Hmm, I had a look but perhaps it's exhaustion that's stopping me finding the clear answer....
What sort of hit rating should I gear for ideally in a 3/51/17 spec? Should I be aiming to spellhit cap? Is that at all important? Or should I leave it at 8% for specials? Saying that, does the hit from DW talents contribute towards capping specials? Should I be gearing for (and to me this doesn't seem likely) 5% hit and then going all out on dps stats?

Sorry to be annoying, this has possibly been answered already, but I've been tweaking my gear setup in preparation for 3.2 and wondering if I should be swapping out some hit gear.

Originally Posted by Dauraane

As any spec you want to at least hit the soft hit cap(8%). For DW, however, most of your dmg comes from white attacks and having more hit then the soft cap is very good. Getting spell hit capped should not be on your list of things-to-do because in a raid(25 man atleast) you should easily achieve the spell hit cap.

I'm not completely sure about the DW talent contributing towards special hit cap so someone please correct me if im wrong, but if i remember correctly it doesn't contribute. The talent states "increases your chance to hit with one-handed melee weapons by _%". I say it doesn't because it only says melee weapons rather then special attacks like it does for the rogue talent called "Precision: Increases your chance to hit with weapon and poison attacks by _%." Meaning all attacks done by the weapons the rogue is using have a higher chance to hit.

Originally Posted by sweberry

@Foxx:
I'm well aware of how Kahorie's simulator works (been using it for live for ages but not tested the 3.2-one yet), but thanks. What I was curious about was simply at what lvl of gear this statset is likely to be compared to, if it matches BiS Ulduar-gear or more of the 3.2 loot. Also what ilvl of the weapon as this should in my opinion match the ilvl you sim for 2H with. Like with your blood/DW-test here, if you used 200 dpsers like you said was in the simulator as standard that's higher than Aesir's Edge.

Also, are you in to the blood scene? Is 51/0/20 actually still the preferred bloodspec for 3.2? If these numbers are correct it seems even unholy is passing blood on single target dps - it just seems weird.

@midnight:
For most of the DK dual wield specs you treat them as you would 2H specs. In general you want to cap specials. If your build somehow heavily relies on spell hits (like the DC spam build) you'll want to get spell capped too. If not, forget about it.

Extra hit is welcome, but don't pursuit it.

@Dauraane:
Having more hit than the soft cap is not particularly good. It's not hurting if gear has more hitrating, but again. It's stat points that are better spend on strength.

General advise has been (back with 32/38 as well) and will remain. Go for the special cap (spell reliant and GoDisease specs want to get the spell cap too) and then stop stacking.

I see several people suggesting up to 400 or 500 hitrating which is such a waste of stats. You hardly get anything out of hitrating after the spell hitcap. We're not rogues that apply poisons or gain energy from hitting with our weapons. We only have 2-3 abilities that would benefit from getting in more white hits (RI and KM are the only ones i can think of actually) and the increase on them is so small that its not worth it over any other stat.

@sweberry:
You misunderstand again.

200 dps weapons are used in setstat2.

What i used was the BiS blood gear with Aesir's Edge (ilevel 232) and the BiS blood gear with 2x 180 dps weapons, which also is ilevel 232.

I have no idea whether 51/0/20 will remain the best after the patch. I haven't looked into that. But if anyone knows a better spec for comparison let me know and i'll run it again.

Konata · 08/01/09, 7:10 AM

I think you should at least hit spell hit cap, since if you don't have it it will mess up the frost DW rotation in blood pressence since we use every GCD with little leeway. Even more so with Glyph of Disease cause if that misses your diseases drop.

More hit benefits our procs too, like KM, RI, BCB, Necrosis and possibly any ramping up trinkets.

Edit:
We are actually alot like Rogues in plate now for DW Frost. BCB + Nercrosis + Diseases is like our poisions, OB is like Mut now. Our RP like combo points to use FS is like Evis/envenom. Moreso than fury warriors now, which used to be like rogues in plate.

sweberry · 08/01/09, 8:46 AM

I would hardly call us rogues in plate. BCB + necrosis accounts for ~7% of your damage (rough estimate, random simparse i saw a few pages back) while a rogues poisons account for up to 18-20% of their damage. Then compare a DK's melee being 20-25% compared to rogues 40%. The diseases are up to 8% i guess but PS is a strike and you cant compare icy touch (+ BCB and necrosis) to the poisons.

As to the statement of "at least hit spell cap" I hope you're not implying they should ever go further than that.

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/01/09, 12:19 PM

Some more observations with the latest version:
- Best glyphs are OB, BS and FS by far
- Placing FS at the last place in your priority is the best
- Rime should only be used with KM, but at top priority
- Best priority Pastey.net - paste bin
- Best spec Pastey.net - paste bin
- I didn't run EP yet, but Arp seems to be the best stat after Str. I got a lot more dps with Blood items

With all those optimizations I was able to get 500dps more, resulting in 7600dps (with the items I wear on live plus two 188dps weapons Pastey.net - paste bin).

Foxx2405 · 08/01/09, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Konata

I think you should at least hit spell hit cap, since if you don't have it it will mess up the frost DW rotation in blood pressence since we use every GCD with little leeway. Even more so with Glyph of Disease cause if that misses your diseases drop.

More hit benefits our procs too, like KM, RI, BCB, Necrosis and possibly any ramping up trinkets.

Edit:
We are actually alot like Rogues in plate now for DW Frost. BCB + Nercrosis + Diseases is like our poisions, OB is like Mut now. Our RP like combo points to use FS is like Evis/envenom. Moreso than fury warriors now, which used to be like rogues in plate.

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Some more observations with the latest version:
- Best glyphs are OB, BS and FS by far
- Placing FS at the last place in your priority is the best
- Rime should only be used with KM, but at top priority
- Best priority Pastey.net - paste bin
- Best spec Pastey.net - paste bin
- I didn't run EP yet, but Arp seems to be the best stat after Str. I got a lot more dps with Blood items

With all those optimizations I was able to get 500dps more, resulting in 7600dps (with the items I wear on live plus two 188dps weapons Pastey.net - paste bin).

@Konata:
If you miss a IT application for example, what you do is that you skip out on one frost strike at the end.

The question is whether that dps loss is worth gemming / persuiting more hit instead of strength. I doubt it.

As for the hit on procs. That dps increase is so incredibly little per point. This was already established back with the 32/38 spec in 3.0.x. Hit really is worth hardly anything after you reach spell hit cap. And between special and spell hit, its not a bad stat. But about twice as weak as strength or armor penetration if i remember correctly. The space between special and spell hit cap form a nice buffer in my opinion since a lot of BiS gear comes with hit anyway.

@doc
Nice. Pretty much the same I got (spec / rotation wise), i had 3/3 BCB first. Ill test 54/17 vs 53/18 (4/5 km) and see the difference.
However the recent adjustments might indeed push the favor towards maxing KM. (I think i did my test between those 2 specs before KM rime priority was implemented).

EDIT: did some tests with BiS blood gear + 180 dps weapons. I indeed had slightly more dps with 2/3 BCB and 5/5 KM, but the difference was very very small, about 10 dps.
EDIT2: Correction the difference with setstat2 was actually 1 dps :P

I'm trying to think hard whether you want a higher KM procrate. You're saving KM for rime a lot, so i'm not sure if the impact of extra PPM on KM is that high.
But i guess they're just very close.

Did you test the 53/18 spec too Doc with 4/5 KM and 3/3 BCB ?

concept84 · 08/01/09, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Some more observations with the latest version:
- Best glyphs are OB, BS and FS by far
- Placing FS at the last place in your priority is the best
- Rime should only be used with KM, but at top priority
- Best priority Pastey.net - paste bin
- Best spec Pastey.net - paste bin
- I didn't run EP yet, but Arp seems to be the best stat after Str. I got a lot more dps with Blood items

With all those optimizations I was able to get 500dps more, resulting in 7600dps (with the items I wear on live plus two 188dps weapons Pastey.net - paste bin).

You mention best glyphs without any mention of PT glyph. Are you finding PT glyph to be a DPS loss provided someone else brings the raid buff?

You also mention ArP to be very valuable and I can shakily back this up with raid testing on the PTR in some 10 mans. I noticed a dps increase using my current Blood items over other pieces of gear. ArP's high value undoubtedly has to be because of the large percentage of physical damage coming from an OB heavy DW build.

Doc, how far off do you think you are on pinpointing some weights for 0/5x/1x?

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/01/09, 1:00 PM

Originally Posted by concept84

You mention best glyphs without any mention of PT glyph. Are you finding PT glyph to be a DPS loss provided someone else brings the raid buff?

You also mention ArP to be very valuable and I can shakily back this up with raid testing on the PTR in some 10 mans. I noticed a dps increase using my current Blood items over other pieces of gear. ArP's high value undoubtedly has to be because of the large percentage of physical damage coming from an OB heavy DW build.

Doc, how far off do you think you are on pinpointing some weights for 0/5x/1x?

What is a PT glyph and what does it have to do with a raid buff?
You can't really back up a theory with one 10 man run on horribly easy bosses, but your general conclusions are correct.
EP are being calculated right now, but I think I'll have to redo them to properly reflect Exp and Hit.

Originally Posted by Foxx2405

EDIT: did some tests with BiS blood gear + 180 dps weapons. I indeed had slightly more dps with 2/3 BCB and 5/5 KM, but the difference was very very small, about 10 dps.

Since we prefer using runes, there is more time for KM to proc before being used again. Did you use the one point in UA?

Foxx2405 · 08/01/09, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by concept84

You mention best glyphs without any mention of PT glyph. Are you finding PT glyph to be a DPS loss provided someone else brings the raid buff?

You also mention ArP to be very valuable and I can shakily back this up with raid testing on the PTR in some 10 mans. I noticed a dps increase using my current Blood items over other pieces of gear. ArP's high value undoubtedly has to be because of the large percentage of physical damage coming from an OB heavy DW build.

Doc, how far off do you think you are on pinpointing some weights for 0/5x/1x?

I do not think that you can effectively simulate the PT glyph at the moment. The priority probably doesn't allow for 1 PT + 1 BS on all the bloodrunes.
Unless the simulator is smart enough to use PT instead of IT + PS to keep the diseases (highest priority) up. That would make it testable.

I'll run an AEP run on the 54/17 build with DWsetstat2, see what it says. If numbers seem to be very much off ill try BiS blood gear for an AEP run.

Foxx2405 · 08/01/09, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Since we prefer using runes, there is more time for KM to proc before being used again. Did you use the one point in UA?

The build i used was this one:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10179

Edit: with Ob/FS/BS glyphs

Just checking if you gave that a go as well. Thinking logically tells me that a point in BCB should be better than a point in KM since we're often saving KM for rime. But, they're very close either way. And I know from experience that thinking logically often doesn't work in this game.

concept84 · 08/01/09, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

What is a PT glyph and what does it have to do with a raid buff?
You can't really back up a theory with one 10 man run on horribly easy bosses, but your general conclusions are correct.
EP are being calculated right now, but I think I'll have to redo them to properly reflect Exp and Hit.

I should have been more clear. What I meant was if the Haste buff is being brought by an Enh Shaman or another Frost DK is the PT glyph looking better in your findings than the BS glyph, however I think Foxx answered this question right after I posted.

Astalion · 08/01/09, 1:28 PM

The simulator refreshes using pestilence if some circumstances (low enough duration on diseases, I think one of them has to be below 1.5 sec, and if only one blood rune is available) are met, but if you're setting it up using IT-PS-OB-Pest-BS or something similar it won't do that correctly, which will screw the rest up. I posted some ideas in the sim thread that I think should be able to fix it if you set your rotation up properly, but we'll see.

Foxx2405 · 08/01/09, 1:36 PM

******************EP CALCULATOR************************
EP :AttackPower = 100
EP :Strength = 326
EP :Agility = 150
EP :CritRating = 192
EP :HasteRating = 157
EP :ArmorPenetrationRating = 249
EP :ExpertiseRating = 368
EP :HitRating = 403
EP :SpellHitRating = 210
EP :WeaponDPS = 912
EP :WeaponSpeed = 37719
EP :2T7 = 132
EP :4T7 = -153
EP :2T8 = 127
EP :4T8 = 149
EP :2T9 = -17

AEP values taken with the 54/17 spec. With FC/FC; awareness; rotation that doc posted (and most of us used before); 200 ms; 100 hour runs (otherwise it takes AGES); And with DWsetstat2.
I might run the numbers again with the BiS blood gear i've been messing about with recently.

NOTE: The numbers seem lower now because DWsetstat2 now uses 180 dps weapons where it used 200 dps before !!! (That is also why doc's numbers are higher, he uses 188 dps weapons; weapon dps makes a HUGE difference)

EDIT:

I'll add this as well so the numbers make sense, and explains the negative tier values:
Average for DryRun = 6933
Average for AttackPower = 6990
Average for Strength = 7026
Average for Agility = 6976
Average for CritRating = 6988
Average for HasteRating = 6978
Average for ArmorPenetrationRating = 7004
Average for ExpertiseRating = 6828
Average for HitRating = 6818
Average for SpellHitRating = 6993
Average for WeaponDPS = 6985
Average for WeaponSpeed = 6976
Average for 0T7 = 6942
Average for AttackPower0T7 = 6997
Average for 2T7 = 7015
Average for 4T7 = 6858
Average for 2T8 = 7012
Average for 4T8 = 7024
Average for 2T9 = 6933

Aezoc · 08/01/09, 1:51 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

- Best priority Pastey.net - paste bin

I'm not very familiar with the simulator, so I may be misreading this - does this suggest that if you have a KM proc but no Rime proc, it is a DPS loss to replace Ob with HB or weave in a FS?

Unrelated to that question, I noticed under "Taking Advantage of Blood Tap" the OP mentions

By doing this you are able to start of any rotation with an abundance of RP, as you will be able to ITx2 immediately at the beginning of the fight.

This should probably be clarified that it's only useful for 0/17/54, since I don't think any other build has the GCDs to take advantage of it. The gist of the section (getting DD runes from BT) is useful for everyone though.

Foxx2405 · 08/01/09, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by Aezoc

I'm not very familiar with the simulator, so I may be misreading this - does this suggest that if you have a KM proc but no Rime proc, it is a DPS loss to replace Ob with HB or weave in a FS?

Yep.

Basically you use 2x obliterate, if you have rime you hold it until you also get KM. If you had rime earlier thats good and you can use it right away.
If rime doesnt proc but KM did, you will lose it when you dump RP on FS.

At least that's what i get from the idea behind this priority.

concept84 · 08/01/09, 2:01 PM

Originally Posted by Aezoc

I'm not very familiar with the simulator, so I may be misreading this - does this suggest that if you have a KM proc but no Rime proc, it is a DPS loss to replace Ob with HB or weave in a FS?

It suggests that if runes are available for anything higher in the priority to use that ability instead. Its always better to use Rime with a KM proc, and given the length of time Freezing Fog is up when it procs you should have more than enough time to sit on it until KM procs as well.

Judging by this priority list it also suggests NOT weaving a FS in unless you have an open GCD, since it is lowest on the priority list.