one question regarding Nerves of Cold Steel which improves our hit by 3%. Does that mean I only need 5% hit from gear to be capped or is it still important to get the hit higher because of white hits from the OH?

To figure out the real chance of IT+HB in the normal rotation, we would need to know the % chance per hit to proc KM, and integrate it with Rime proc chance. Do we have a percentage value for KM proc chance?

Also, for the XX part of the rotation, wouldn't the chance for XX to be a BS be 50%, as half of you XX will be with >10 sec on FF still up, and therefore be BS?

One thing I'd like to add though is that you gradually lose RP for the fourth FS in the rotation (12th GCD). If we assume that the first rotation to be IT PS OB BS BS, dump, OB OB XX YY (and continue to be that) we would have (1-0,725^3 = 0,619) roughly 62% chance that XX is HB and rotation ends with 24 RP spare(+0,75 FS), and 38% chance that XX is IT and ends with 34 RP spare (+1,0625 FS).

After that, you have (assuming my second paragraph) (1-0,725^4=0,734) roughly 73,4% chance for XX to be HB and "use" 13 RP of the reserve (-0,4025 FS), and respectively 16,6% chance for XX to be IT and "use" 3 RP of the reserve (-0,09375 FS).

Hit is still fairly high value until you reach spell hit cap. How valuable hit is after the spell hit cap, we cannot know until we can figure out the all stat weightings.

@ Hit rating

It looks like 5% + the 3% from nerves does in fact cap special attacks, but honestly with how tight the frost rotations are I really think the spellhit cap (or close) should be the goal. If you miss an Icy touch, obviously you need to cast it again as you can't operate without. Any time you waste a GCD like this, you are loosing damage because you are trading a FS, or OB or KM rime for that extra Icy touch.


As for hit after the spell cap, for DW unholy it was in the range of 1.21 APE. I can see frosts being slightly lower due to a less valuable BCB, but then again Frost has KM so it might be a wash. Overall, we do need to calculate other statwieghts first, but my assumption based on previous knowledge is that hit even after spell cap will be more valuable than AP. Not worth stacking, but the freedom to go above without it being a waste is pretty fantastic.

Well KM is a ppm. It is 1 ppm per point, so for 5 points you'd get 5 ppm.

With 2.60 speed weapons that would turn out to be 21.7% chance to proc per hit (white hit / yellow hit / BCB hit / everything).

BS isn't 50% as you could also gain another rime proc on the 2nd part of your 20 second rotation, in which case you'll use HB again.
If you are insanely lucky you'll chain this:
OB>OB>HB>BS
OB>OB>HB>PS
repeat

However i doubt we ever get that lucky.

In general it goes like this (read proc HB as rime proc):
You get a HB on the first rotation.
If the next doesn't proc HB you get a BS, if it does you get a HB again
If the 2nd procced HB, then the 3nd either gets a BS (no rime) or a HB (rime) again, if the 2nd didnt proc a HB then the 3th is an IT (no rime FF runs out) or a HB (rime, refreshes FF).

It pretty much comes down that you use BS about twice as often as IT, which the percentages show (18% vs 34%)

You are right about the generation of less RP.

On average you should get:
20 + 20 + X + 10 RP per rotation.
X = 0.48 * 5 RP + 0.18 * 15 RP + 0.34 * 10 RP = 8.5 RP

20 + 20 + 8.5 + 10 = 58.5 RP on average per rotation.

Which indeed is a bit short on RP for 4 FS per 20 sec.

There are revitalize procs to think about. If you're needing 11 extra per 20second rotation to fit the 4th FS in every time then 1 tick in that 20seconds would provide more than enough. I'm not sure if that works out well in practice or not, because it's reliant on your druid.

So, since Glyph of Disease doesn't refresh Icy Talons. I started thinking about a glyph to replace it. I was looking at Glyph of Blood Strike but then started thinking about how to snare mobs. Since Frost Fever doesn't count as a snare (atelast I don't think it does) and we can't afford to waste a rune on Chains of Ice.

I plan on moving 1 point from Blood Caked Strike or Killing Machine to put it in Chilblains to "Snare" the mob so I can get the 20% Damage increase from Blood Strike. I'll post my findings when I test tonight.

Anybody has thoughts on that?

Not since the change this patch that made druid hots tick for 0. It can still give RP even without heals.

Revitalize has always worked this way.

People who use GoD don't spec for IIT. That is the point of the whole glyph, it lets you take other DPS talents and you simply rely on Shamans for 20% haste buff.

What I'm trying to accomplish is total utility for personal DPS. I may not always be able to get a Windfury in my raid.

Has anyone run new data to show that KM was changed to proc off more than just your main hand white attacks?

The first page of this thread discusses that KM doesn't proc more than 5ppm. From what I remember Bliz didn't want dual wield to get an advantage over 2handers. This is also the consensus on TankSpot (Satorri's post).

There was also work done to show that KM can't proc off FS (... have to quote wowhead here, can't find any of the old links to EJ threads).

Wow, I failed at supporting links, I'll try to dig more up when I have time and edit this, but fairly certain KM only procs off your main hand, and only procs off white attacks.


Edits:
GC saying KM doesn't proc from off hand: Killing machine bugged (GC plz review) | DPS | WoW Blue Tracker | World of Raids

And an in game fix note saying that some weapon procs won't cause KM to proc: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Recent In-Game Fixes - 4/16/09

Again, these posts are fairly old, but should still be true.

You have that backwards. The glyph doesn't "let" you take the other abilities. The glyph is a dps increase because you trade BS+IT+PS for pest + OB and can keep diseases up that are inflated by procs.

You can use the glyph and keep the same IIT spec, or you could use the glyph spec and not use the glyph. The only reason there is a separate spec for use with the glyph is that by using pest, you can't keep IIT up anyway, so you may as well spend those points elsewhere.

KM only procs on white attacks, since the first DW nerf a while back

You are correct. KM has never procced of anything but white hits and hasn't procced off of OH hits since pre-3.1.

I ran a 5,000 hour EP valuation last night and thought I'd share my results. My gear and build can be found in my profile to the left. I used 150 ms latency on version 0.10.1. All buffs were selected except Draeni. Results:

AP	100
Strength	261
Agility	114
Crit	144
Haste	126
Armor Pen	185
Expertise	347
Hit	388
Spell Hit	120
Weapon DPS	691
Weapon Speed	36029
2T8	12000
4T8	13076
2T9	26615
DPS 6506

I still have no idea how to interpret the Weapon Speed value and hold that an EP value for Hit after the Spell cap would be very useful.

I simply have been using the weights for the other stats and using the current frost 2h OB hit / exp personally. The rotation is essentially identical, and, with the exception of Frost Strike and OB, the damage breakdown on abilities is nearly identical as well.

For what it is worth, your EP calculator is very close to the calculator I came up with as well (also a 5,000 sim).

I'm wondering, at what point do you throw out Slow/Slow in favor of Slow/Fast. For example, your two off-hand choices are [Vulmir, the Northern Tempest] and Blood Fury. I believe we had established that a full tier jump was required for a Fast weapon to overtake a Slow one. Does this still hold true?

I don't have the math on hand, but it's been shown that the DPS gain in a higher ilevel fast weapon is trivial when compared with the enormous loss in weapon damage. Essentially, there is no realistic scenario where you will have a fast weapon that beats out a slow weapon, no matter what the ilvl/tier difference.

I guess the weapon speed just says: 1.00 speed extra gives 36000 EP

So for a 2.6 weapon to be as good as a 2.7 weapon it needs to do about 5 dps more.
r a 1.5 weapon to be as good as a 2.7 weapon it needs to do : (1.2 * 36029) / 691 = 62.6 dps more.

If the number isn't wrong, than that's what I interpret from the number

My EP are similar. I have 3/3 BCB, so the side-stats like Haste and ArP are slightly higher.

Why wouldn't you just use Hellscream Slicer? It is not unique so you would be able to dual wield it.