Sakuratei

Added haste increases the damage from Necrosis and BCB though (since we're talking Unholy subspec anyway) but I've never really put myself into the maths, and I kinda don't wanna drag on with issues that aren't "Need to test", so I'll just take your word for it.

 

Sylari

Er.. speccing into IIT still leaves HB and UA available, you'll probably end up losing the 3% OB crit and one point in BCB, or 2 points in BCB which isn't a huge issue since BCB damage is trivial in most cases.

On top of that, from what I understand the shaman will gain more DPS with the two talents he's moving than the DPS gained with the two talents the DK is moving, not to mention that IIT is the superior buff to begin with.

 

Amroo

Damage from BCB and Necrosis is already taken into account when looking at "25% white damage related attacks". If auto-attack alone is 25% of your damage you should seriously reconsider your rotation since you are apparently wasting lots of DPS.

Shaman gains either some health or some int / manareg, nothing that affects damage any more than Improved Frost Presence. Calling BCB "trivial" is very questionable since it's more than 0.7% damage per point. 2 points of BCB yield more damage than IIT will ever dream of reaching.
And how exactly is IIT the superior buff? Both yield 20% haste, with 3.2 the shaman can place all 4 totems in one GCD and since he will have to provide SoE anyways, there is exactly zero additional cost.

 

Sylari

the DPS increase for both classes would be fairly small I agree ( although at least from my limited testing on the PTR, AA + BCB + Necrosis is greater than 25% ), but IIT's advantages are basically that it has no opportunity cost, doesn't fade instantaneously after death and the shaman could then provide wrath of air which no other class can provide either.

 

Odii

The shaman locks that totem slot type though, no longer able to provide grounding totem or nature resistance totem. And that assumes you have 2 shaman and the other is laying a wrath of air totem. It also assumes that you have an enhancement shaman, as an elemental or restoration shaman will not have the talent to raise melee haste to 20%. If however you always have an enhancement shaman on hand, then IIT is one you can skip, as 5/5 IT and IIT is not a good investment for personal DPS.

Its a personal DPS vs. group utility question. Every DK will have to answer it for themselves.

 

Amroo

There is no discussion about the talent distribution if your raid doesn't provides 20% melee haste or 5% spell haste. However, optimizing specs assumes that all outside buffs are present. Even if AA+BCB+Necrosis is 26 or 27% of overall damage (I really see no way how it could possibly be more), there is just no way that 5% melee haste is worth more than 1 point in BCB + Dc + 1 point in Subversion. So it definitely is a DPS increase, even if just very small. Plus utility and survivability.

 

Sylari

Sub-optimal raids do happen though, we can't always guarantee three shamans per raid ( if we include NR, even if it is only good on a few fights..). But since we're only talking about optimal comps and assume the raid never moves more than 30 yards and no one ever dies, NR is relevant I suppose..

then we're just comparing Deathchill + 3 nondps talent points + 3% ob/BS crit + 3/3 BCB versus 5% melee haste 2/3 BCB and the small DPS increase the enhancement shaman gains from speccing out of imp WF. ( or 1/3 BCB + haste vs 3/3 BCB if the dk shifts the point over to subversion anyways )

 

Kaincael

SotVH = ~405 extra FS damage after talents. Reference:http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t64830-d...g/#post1292315

SoA = ~723 extra Obl damage after talents. Reference:DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand

723/405 = 1.7(851r)


Assuming an even crit rate (because I'm not sure how to model KM, still), the breakeven point is 1.785 FS for every 1 OB. For later ease, this is 5.355 FS per 3 OB. Lower amounts of FS and SoA wins, higher amounts and SotVH wins.

Attempting a double disease rotation without epidemic, with IT glyph:

IT-PS-OB-BS-BS = 25-10-20-10-10 (75 RP)
OB-IT-PS-OB = 20-25-10-20 (75 RP)

Using AMS for soaking extra RP would net... assuming completely maximal use, 110 RP every 45 seconds (130 from 0-full, and -20 RP for the casting cost), or 2.444 RP/s, in the course of a 20 second rotation, that's 48.888 RP
Butchery gives 2 RP/5s, so that's 8 RP
AMS Soaking (110RP/45s), IT glyph, Butchery
Total: 206.888 RP, or about 6.46525 Frost Strikes in that rotation, for every 3 OB cast. SotVH would pull ahead in that case.

No AMS Soaking, IT glyph, Butchery
158 RP, or about 4.9375 FS per every 3 OB.
Close enough to where I think KM would probably swing it one way or another, but it's pretty close.

No AMS Soaking, no IT glyph, Butchery
138 RP, or about 4.3125 FS per 3 OB. About now is where SoA is looking better.

AMS Soaking (110RP/120s), no IT glyph, Butchery
156.33 RP, or about 4.88541 FS per 3 OB, where SoA is better.

Tentative conclusion: On fights with AMS soaking, SotVH will be superior. On fights without AMS soaking, the results are much muddier, I hesitently suggest that SoA would be better. On fights with AMS soaking every 2 minutes, it would appear almost near a wash, but until KM can be accounted for, SoA appears better.

Things that aren't included that I'm not sure how to include: Rapture/Revitalize, and how KM would boost FS's overall benefit of SotVH over SoA.

Please let me know if you find any mistakes in my math.
Edit: On an interesting note, I attempted factoring in KM as if it were a 15% crit increase, and I was coming up with a 4.38(18r) per 3 OB breakeven point.

 

Bob002

I had some other things running through my mind when I posted that. Originally I had in my mind to not take HB and instead take UB. Then I remembered it was changing at that point to be a DoT after a DC.

As I tried to play around with a spec after that, I realized that there is essentially way more that buffs the dmg and crit dmg of FS.

I may have somewhat mistakenly misunderstood what he was saying as well.

 

Zurai

This is bad math unless you have a 0% crit chance for Frost Strike somehow, and a 0% chance to miss or be dodged. FS is going to have at least a 30% crit chance once you figure in raid buffs. That means the actual math for the increase, given your same 10k crit, 4k base damage, 100% chance to hit assumption, is as follows:

4000 * 0.7 = 2800; this is the average damage contribution from non-critical FS
10000 * 0.3 = 3000; this is the average damage contribution from critical FS
2800 + 3000 = 5800; this is the average FS damage overall

10000 - 5800 = 4200; this is the average damage increase of using Deathchill to ensure a crit
4200 / 120 seconds = 35 DPS; this is the actual average DPS increase from using Deathchill on cooldown

The result will get even worse when you factor in Killing Machine and misses/dodges, because it becomes more likely that your attack would have already been a critical (and thus more likely that you'll completely waste Deathchill) and more likely that your Deathchill-enhanced attack will miss, also wasting it.

 

Xentik

Here are the latest results.

The images are plotted in the Crit vs. AP plane, allowing you to choose a point that represents your base Crit rate and AP and determine whether DC or FS wins out for that particular pair of values. The shaded area above the solid line represents the area where FS wins over DC before accounting for any deltas in variables. The dashed lines below it represent where the solid line would move to when taking into account the deltaVariable as defined below.

The four graphs each take one variable into account:

1. deltaAP := Frost Strike is assumed to have (0,100,200,300,400,500) extra AP factored in.*
   
2. deltaCrit := Frost Strike is assumed to have a crit rate (0-5)% higher than DC. This is the big one, large differences in crit make it effectively impossible for DC to outperform FS in DPRP.**
3. deltaMH := Increase the MH dps by (0,5,10,15,20,25).***
   
4. deltaOH := Increase the OH dps by (0,5,10,15,20,25).***

   
   *-Not sure why you'd need this, but did it anyway for kicks.
   
   **-I don't remember exactly where, but someone mentioned KM being equivalent to ~15% extra crit for FS. My
   calculations currently are showing that even a 9% crit difference moves the needed AP for DC to catch back up
   out to the 50-100K range.
   
   ***-Note that the MH/OH have very little effect on the competitiveness of FS.

I suppose I'll take a stab at computing per-talent-point DPRP values for FS starting from the top of the frost tree down, as those are the points that'll be lost first in hybrids. If anyone has suggestions for other things to calculate say so and I'll try and get to them as well. Keep in mind that the equations only spit out Damage/Strike or Damage/RP as I've made no effort to model combat at all.

Re: Kyruski - SoV vs SotVH

Here's the results.

I used same setup as above, and you can see that switching away from the SotVH actually favors DC strongly at low crit values. However, as above, any modest deltaCrit between the two drastically favors FS over DC.

Note: Since SoV doesn't favor either attack there's no change in the behaviour of the function for adding in the SoV, only for removing the SotVH. This also applies to the 2pT8 set bonus.

 

Kyruski

Actually, I think in either 3.0.8 or 3.1 that they changed the mechanics of Deathchill+KM to Deathchill not being used if KM is up. I could be wrong though.

Xentik: Thank you for the SoV calcs as it is entirely possible that we will be switching so having the calcs done beforehand are a nice addition. But from what I can see, FS will most likely be the choice over DC in 40+ Frost builds. Do not quote me though on this.

 

Syrellia

It's true, I can confirm that.

Regarding Deathchill vs. Improved Icy Talons:

• Deathchill costs 1 point while Improved Icy Talons cost 6 points. However it matters less when you can see that you'll have to use the 5 points at fillers or side effects at lower tier in the tree anyway.
  
• 5% haste from Icy Talons does not mean 5% increase in ppm effects. It does not affect instant strikes which also procs stuffs.
  
• When calculating the dps increase from Deathchill, remember to factor in the nature crit chance, because chances are the attacks you use Deathchill on could've critted on its own. Thus this created a "wasted use" of Deathchill. The simpler way is just to regard Deathchill as 0.5ppm added in Killing Machine, although it's a little bit better if used on Obliterate and if Obliterate hits harder than Frost Strike (arguable, OB always had better crit chance which is also factored in). However this makes the talent very weak IMO.

 

Edimasta

Just to give some input... my first "try" at the PTR:

15/53/3
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10026

(no Merciless Combat because dummy was low on HP - final Talentspec should be with MC)

Blood Presence
Slow / Slow
Only HoW Selfbuffed
No Ghoul, No CD used, nor any other buff / trinket

Changed some equip pieces for more HIT and Haste / Str instead of ArP. Had around 13% Hit.
Sigil of Awareness used. No T-Bonus.



1. Obliterate
2. Melee
3. FrostStrike
4. BloodStrike

Rotation:
PS-IT-BS-BS-OB-FS-(FS)
OB-OB-OB-FS-FS-(FS)

Conclusion:

Potential and very fun to play. Infight around 3700 DPS which is more than I can pull with DW now on LIVE. So a good start for that one. But a problem with the rotation, Diseases are to short and I often ran out of the Disease before I could complete the second cycle of my rotation. Sure there could be some improvement and training made from my side, like saving the RP to do FS after the full cycle... but in movement fights you will run out of Diseases more often than it should be. And there is really no place to use Rime for HB.

So I think it will be better to go 10/54/7 - just loosing some crit for better disease duration and smoother rotation.

Crits and Hits have been acceptable for a solo test. I cannot say that BloodStrike is hitting harder. But this might be because of not speccing deeper into blood.

 

Sakuratei

I don't know if I'm doing it wrong, but here's the breakdown I'm basing my statement on. 9 minute fight, 2 million damage, Double ghoul, 1 Insane Strength potion, 15/53/3 spec, 2x FC.

Rotation was IT-PS-BS-BS-OB // OB-OB-OB using priority system to try and only FS on KM procs, and replacing OB with IT-PS whenever diseases are running out (In other words, the rotation is shifting, not fixed).



And here is the breakdown for a 53/18 spec, same buffs as above, unfortunately my subspec had Glyph of Howling Blast instead of Icy Touch so it means that Frost Strike is slightly underrepresented.



Epidemic opens up room for more strikes, BP and FF dots remain the same, Autoattack damage gives way for the extra strike damage, Necrosis and BCB show 4% respectively 2.4% of the damage done.

I know we're not supposed to discuss specs yet, but it may be of interest to go 10/54/7, boosting crit of OB and BS, Full Frost plus UA, and Epidemic for more strike time.

 

Amroo

That's odd, I never get more than 17-18% from white damage alone. Although my rotation was slightly shiftet to IT-PS-BS-BS-OB / IT-IT-OB-OB in UP. I'm not sure how the switch from BP to UP affects white damage percentage, but I got significantly more DPS out of UP, which could however be due to the not-that-great latency on the PTR. I did also use a fast offhand, since currently I don't have a slow one, which technically should favor white damage over strikes (white damage percentage with a slow OH should be even less).

Edit: Could you PM me which weapons you used?

Edit: Doh, I didn't spec IT or IIT, so I did not have 20% haste, which you probably did and which explains the higher share of white damage. Now, I'm not sure if to calculate the benefit of 5% haste the base values should be taken into account or the values after outside buffs, but I would put my money on the base values, since I don't think haste scales on itself. If unhasted you have 100 hits in a given time, with 20% haste you have 120 hits and with 25% haste you have 125 hits. 125 to 120 is a 4.167% increase; 125 to 100 is a 25% (20+5) increase, so haste increases the unbuffed damage of your autoattacks by the hastened amount, not the damage after other buffs.

 

Waddy

What if we took the 2 points out of CotG and put them into 1/3 CB and DC? It seems we've proven that OB is hitting harder than fs up to like 8k ap. I think it's fair to assume being able to fit in the extra talent points and not have to worry about squeezing in all the extra fs's that we'll do better in the end. Especially since we'll be in BP which is like getting more bang for your buck.

Something like this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10026

Then using blood presence and the traditional it - ps - bs - bs - ob - fs dump / ob - ob - ob - fs dump rotation?

 

Edimasta

That is what I also think and suggested above...

Why go for Chillblains? Are you sure this will stay like now, slowing Bosses down and using this effect for BS?
I can't imagine that... no Boss is slowable or controllable.

 

Travaggie

Here is a more blood strike centered spec that has typically put up around 4k+ w/o Merciless combat or ebon plague on the boss and that is with my current gear which is only at 6% armor pen. I'm heavilly leaning towards this spec atm and believe it will only get better with raid buffs and scale very well. Merciless combat is listed in the talent spec but for testing I did move those points into Chillbains to not skew the data.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10026

Rotation in Blood Presence: Start with: PS>IT>BS>BS>OB>OB :: Every rotation after = PS>IT>BS>BS>BS>BS>OB repeat (use FS on KM procs or as GCD fillers).

The reason the rotation is different than most is that A) with chillbains giving +20% damage to blood strike and only being up for 10 seconds after being applied you have to get out all your blood strikes before the 5 second mark on your frost fever and B) since you can't pick up epidemic but you do have DRM and BotN you're basically turning this into one 15 second rotation instead of 2 10 second rotations and it works out perfectly. You'll only use IT/PS and OB on Frost/Unholy runes and you'll use all BS's on death runes after the first 2 cycles.

I've tested it in Unholy Presence and it just doesn't fill out enough GCD's and you end up being forced to use BS's when after chillbains has expired which is a big DPS loss, along with BP scaling much better with buffs/diseases/new set bonuses.

Glyphs: [Glyph of Blood Strike], [Glyph of Obliterate], [Glyph of Frost Strike]

Sigil: Sigil of Virulence

Weapons used: [Vulmir, the Northern Tempest] (MH with FC), [Razorscale Shoulderguards] (OH with RI)


From all my tests so far it seems clear we are steering away from FS being a main attack being that BS hits harder than both FS and OB with the 2nd spec here and RP generation is less emphasized. My damage has been pretty steadily broken down like this for the 2nd spec here so armor pen should benefit this spec greatly (which I don't have on PTR):

Blood Strike - 39%
Frost Strike - 25%
White Damage - 19%
Obliterate - 6%
Icy Touch - 3%

 

Travaggie

The mage Frostfire Bolt and Druid talent Infected Wounds both already give this effect to bosses so why would they neft chillbains just for that.

 

Impowitz

FFB does damage, infected wounds reduces melee attack speed. Bosses can suffer damage over time and melee attack speed slow, but cannot be slowed. Effects of this kind are applied to the boss but do not reduce their movement speed; effects like chillblains and the frostbolt snare are not applied to a boss.

This is why the mage talent Torment the Weak was changed to affect targets that are snared or slowed - "slowed" refers to attack or casting speed debuffs.

 

Zurai

So does Frost Fever, which is what Chilblains modifies.

 

Melchior

Has anyone tested Chilblains on an actual boss target? It doesn't actually modify FF, it applies a separate debuff; so long as that separate debuff actually goes up on the target the BS glyph should work.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Junon.png

 

Edimasta

Would also interest me, is someone capable of test this on the PTR when fighting a real boss, not the dummy? I cannot think of Chillblains working with the BS glyph, would make it way to strong.

It must be checked if Chillblains is putting a seperate debuff on a Target, and if the Glyph is checking this debuff for counting as "snared" or something like that... anyone knows the mechanic of the glyph? How dies it know if a target is snared or not? Know what I mean?

Anyway BS is to strong for now, I cannot think that Blizz wants us to use such a skill for main purposes... after all, it is just something we need to get Death Runes just like we need to get diseases up with IT and PS. Nothing big

 

Travaggie

Everything I had read stated definitively that chillbains does work as a snare on the forums and even in this thread, however I did just run into OS to test on Sartharion and chillbains was not applied, so I can only assume that it does in fact not work on bosses, even though it does work on the test boss dummies. Here's the combat log response specifically "Immortalogc Icy Clutch failed. Sartharion was immune."

So unless you have a reliable frost mage applying Frostfire Bolt or feral druid applying Infected Wounds, any build using the glyph of Blood Strike is going to be significantly less effective (including the build I just posted above )