DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand - Page 51

Odii · 08/02/09, 5:33 PM

@Foxx: Thinking in terms of GCD rotations rather then strict rune rotations is exactly why I had an issue with calling FS filler. If you are given a choice of sacrificing an underperforming rune for no damage or no use, in exchange for getting another FS or Rime HB in, you should. Both the Glyph of Disease and Glyph of Howling Blast theories are based on this thought process.

@ Astallion: To properly simulate an HB rotation, what you really want/need is a system for having a priority element withing a rotation. So, for example:

(1) <OB></OB>

(2)<Priority>
<Rime RPless=35></Rime>
<FS>
</Priority>

(3)<OB></OB>

(4)<Priority>
<Rime></Rime>
<FF refresh=10></FF>
<BS></BS>
</Priority>

(5)<BS></BS>
(6)<FS></FS>

(7)<OB></OB>

(8)<Priority>
<Rime RPless=35></Rime>
<FS>
</Priority>

(9)<OB></OB>

(10)<Priority>
<Rime></Rime>
<FF refresh=10></FF>
<BS></BS>
</Priority>

(11)<PS></PS>
(12)<FS></FS>

Where the RPless is a conditional if RP is less then the number, and the refresh sets the FF refresh to any number below 10 seconds. Works like a Rotation, but uses priority based logic for certain elements. To make it more clear, I tagged each step in the rotation with a number.

@Everyone discussing the HB glyph: I urge you to reread my posts from earlier in the thread, as everything I did was painstakingly thought out. There is nothing about that proposed rotation that is not designed to maximize damage while not getting too complicated to make execution impossible. If you have any specific questions on something because it isnt properly explained, I would love to address them if they are addressed to me.

Astalion · 08/02/09, 7:00 PM

@Odii: I was thinking of doing almost exactly the same thing when I first started researching Glyph of Disease (the Rotation/Priority system) - I ran into some problems when trying to figure out how to handle varying latencies and missed attacks (leading to differing amounts of GCDs per Rune Refresh) though, but I may look into coding a system like that, I think it could have more uses.

@Doc: Yeah, I've seen some very odd looking set EP values from people using the latest versions (I think) of the sim. Try just switching set bonuses on and off one at a time and calculate EP values from those.

Kaejin · 08/02/09, 7:53 PM

Those two sets of gear seem to have relatively low amounts of armor penetration considering it's the second best stat after hit and expertise soft caps are reached, or at least using the stat weights I've seen so far in this thread. I thought we'd be looking at something a little bit closer to a blood BiS set. Am I missing something?

Orlgin · 08/02/09, 8:38 PM

I have tried and tried and I cannot replicate 7.2k+ DPS frost builds. I've changed priorities, use rotations, changed specs, and everytime I come up with a total that is short of what is being posted here.

What am I missing here? I figure Foxx2405 was using the wrong DPS for his weapons since he thought it was 200 DPS weapons. A casual glance at the post history here shows StatSet2 has had 180 DPS weapons from the start which was my memory as well. But I can't figure out Doc's numbers at all. Doc, could you show us the priority and stats you used so we can duplicate your work? As of right now, I can't duplicate the high end Frost build results.

@dr_AllCOM3: As for calling DW Unholy dead, that has yet to be determined. If you don't like Unholy DW, that's your call. But until I see some independent verification of your numbers, I am dubious of your results. Somehow producing 500+ DPS over what anyone else has been achieving is quite a feat and I'm curious about how you did it using the same statset that we have been using. If you can show us some data so we can duplicate your results, then indeed DW Unholy is dead for now.

phantazum · 08/02/09, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Unholy DW is dead

Dead, since when? Last i herd it was competing with the most complicated pure dps frost builds.

pigvomit · 08/02/09, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Unholy DW is dead and please stop quoting long posts. You could have easily shortened it like I did with yours.

Sorry about the long quote earlier. I do have to agree. I have spent long hours on the ptr testing many different deep unholy DW specs versus deep frost dw specs and the deep frost keeps coming up on top, namely the spec I linked earlier (0/53/18). My tests have shown that this spec is competitive with 3.2 Blood 2H dps on single target fights, and, of course, better on multiple targets. I haven't tested 2H Unholy, mostly because I don't think it is any good with higher level gear.

Also, dr_AllCOM3, are you ever planning to update your spreadsheet again, maybe with a DW spec that DOESN'T involve getting 2H Weapon specialization. I PM'd you about it and never got a response.

• vank · 08/02/09, 11:15 PM

@Orlgin. I was having the same problem until I got a hold of the correct priority, which I think Doc posted here.

FrostFever
BloodPlague
KMRime
Obliterate
BloodStrike
FrostStrike

As soon as I changed to that priority, everything fell into place. I've been using DW StatSet2, 200ms latency. The only thing I change is the Blood Strike Glyph.

edit- After seeing Doc question DW Unholy's "viability", I decided to run some sims. 250 hours, 200ms, DW StatSet2. I used the Icy Touch glyph instead of the Blood Strike glyph on the Frost builds; it seemed more realistic to what we'll be doing in 3.2. Here's the results:

0-54-17 = 7096 DPS w/ Awareness
3-51-17 = 7075 DPS w/ Awareness
0-18-53 = 7065 DPS w/ Vengeful Heart (This is the Obliterate build)

Food for thought.

Adamas1 · 08/03/09, 3:36 AM

I am a bit confused with Priority systems, i mean i understand the general idea, but how would you work something like that on live?

Frost Fever
Blood Plague
KM-Rime -> So dont use rime unless KM procs, or if KM procs, only use obliterates until a rime procs?
Obliterate
Blood Strike
Frost Strike -> Wont this allow to much Runic Power to build up?

Something like this seems very complex to monitor in the actual live server, putting aside simulators.

So, would that translate to a rotation on Live, Or is that just the best option so far?

Astalion · 08/03/09, 5:53 AM

Basically, the priority means you use the first thing on the list that is "available" - if a disease isn't up, apply it, FF before BP if neither are up. Then, if KM and Rime are both up, use HB, otherwise move down the list and use the abilities you have runes for - Obliterate taking priority over Blood Strike. If nothing of the above works, use FS. And basically you would run through this list for every GCD, but obviously you can predict when things will/might happen. Roughly you'd get the rotation:
IT-PS-OB-BS-BS-FS-FS
OB-OB-FS-OB-FS
And weaving in HB if both procs are up, but not delaying IT/PS to do that.

Orlgin · 08/03/09, 7:13 AM

Here's 0/18/53 with Awareness Glyph using most recent simulator build:

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
Obliterate 2134681289 15 392662 57 42 0 5436
Plague Strike 178171910 1 98174 51 48 0 1814
Icy Touch 282915059 2 98170 66 32 0 2881
Blood Strike 405902175 2 196335 56 43 0 2067
Death Coil 1700332892 12 374112 66 32 0 4544
UB 340117700 2 374112 100 0 0 909
Frost Fever 762547891 5 599373 100 0 0 1272
Blood Plague 762232134 5 598592 100 0 0 1273
Necrosis 660317382 4 1668930 100 0 0 395
Blood Caked Blade 468293718 3 500022 100 0 0 936
Wandering Plague 642856754 4 505097 99 0 0 1272
Main Hand 2096493771 14 834697 41 42 15 2511
Off Hand 1206528354 8 834233 41 42 15 1446
Ghoul 1808887786 12 2006451 86 13 0 901
Gargoyle 639135197 4 184223 86 13 0 3469
DPS 7116
Total Damage 14089414012 in 550 h
Threat Per Second 4743
Generated in 1040s
Template :OB001853.xml(C:\Users\Ben\Desktop\DKSimulator0.9.7\Templates\OB001853.xml)
Priority :Oblit001853.xml(C:\Users\Ben\Desktop\DKSimulator0.9.7\Priority\Oblit001853.xml)
Presence :Blood
Sigil of :Awareness
RuneForge :FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation :True

You can see the difference. Awareness is just a better glyph for 0/18/53. I still have not been able to replicate a Frost build that was over 7.2k DPS. As far as I can tell, Frost builds and Unholy builds are neck and neck and it's just a matter of choice at this point. The 4pcT9 set bonus heavily favors a Unholy build but Frost scales better so it should be interesting to see what wins the horse race in the end.

Interesting thing about the 4pcT9 set bonus is the way Wandering Plague works. Wandering Plague just copies disease damage by 100% so if a disease gets a critical tick when the Plague checks, Wandering Plague will use the critical damage amount. Better scaling for Wandering Plague is a good thing.

Edit: I used 200 ms latency and Astalion, please use the real simulator if you want to verify my spec. Your simulator has always had different numbers than the standard simulator.

Astalion · 08/03/09, 8:55 AM

Ability	Total	%	Landed	Hit%	Crit%	Miss%	Average
Obliterate	5306150000	36	959746	35	64	0	5528
Plague Strike	7811329	0	5796	54	45	0	1347
Icy Touch	8825345	0	2931	41	58	0	3011
Frost Strike	2817352905	19	778028	53	46	0	3621
Howling Blast	1024614527	7	104215	22	77	0	9831
Frost Fever	572093996	3	655668	100	0	0	872
Blood Plague	519484992	3	654447	100	0	0	793
Necrosis	599353231	4	1687157	100	0	0	355
Blood Caked Blade	243724198	1	336922	100	0	0	723
Main Hand	1901883934	13	843645	45	39	14	2254
Off Hand	1095596197	7	843512	45	39	14	1298
Ghoul	338414619	2	464194	87	12	0	729
Raz	17152970	0	1715297	100	0	0	10
DPS 7299
Threat Per Second 4309

Using Glyph of Disease, 3/51/17 setstat2, 200ms, 550h simulation. Replacing both Blood Strikes with Pestilence which would make keeping diseases up far more manageable, with this priority (added the <Pestilence> priority myself, it casts Pestilence when non-Death Blood Runes are up, no matter the circumstances - same way as Blood Strike is normally used):

<Priority>
  <FrostFever></FrostFever>
  <BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
  <Obliterate></Obliterate>
  <Pestilence></Pestilence>
  <KMRime></KMRime>
  <FrostStrike></FrostStrike>
  <Rime></Rime>
</Priority>

Edit: Also, if I'm not mistaken, your test used 100ms? - Only way I can match your ability usage numbers and DPS anyway, and doing that with my frost spec I'm getting another 90 dps or so above what I posted.

Polytech · 08/03/09, 10:29 AM

Long time reader, first time poster.
I just thought about the GoDisease use. As someone mentioned before pestilence keeps updating disease that was first applied. In the beginning of a fight you get very high chances of proccing greatness, fallen crusader and maybe another trinket effect together, so if you reapply diseased with procs right away you get the strongest diseases you can get and may keep it up throughout the whole fight with pestilence. You may also use UA at this point and maybe a heroic potion to make effect even stronger and use ERW if you dont have unholy and frost runes ready and reset your rotation. I dont know if it's worth it, but looks like a good idea to me.

Drakojin · 08/03/09, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Polytech

Long time reader, first time poster.
I just thought about the GoDisease use. As someone mentioned before pestilence keeps updating disease that was first applied. In the beginning of a fight you get very high chances of proccing greatness, fallen crusader and maybe another trinket effect together, so if you reapply diseased with procs right away you get the strongest diseases you can get and may keep it up throughout the whole fight with pestilence.

I don't want to be the devils advocate but this mechanic was removed for every dot afaik.
E.g. shadowpriests can not push SW:P to the limit and keep it up...it refreshes every time you alter your spellpower.

I imagine this will be the case for our diseases as well....at least sooner or later.

Astalion · 08/03/09, 11:14 AM

@Drakojin: Testing on dummies suggested that at least some of the buffs (only tested with some proc and the TS effect) stick to the disease after reapplications, which should imply that they all do.

Drakojin · 08/03/09, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Astalion

@Drakojin: Testing on dummies suggested that at least some of the buffs (only tested with some proc and the TS effect) stick to the disease after reapplications, which should imply that they all do.

TS is more a debuff than a proc. I can't recall the specific data for WL and SP dots, but debuffs work another way.

IF some procs (like FC) stick to diseases, then it is nice for now. But i can't imagine it to stay for long. Especially for unholy builds.