leladax

So according to your results we all gem incorrectly - you included - when we go first to Strength and ignore Expertise. Expertise should be the 1st thing to gem after Hit. Apparently Soft hit cap (5) - > Soft Expertise cap (26)-> Strength is the way to go.

I'm posting this here in case anyone has an objection. I do not want to spend 2000g to re-gem/learn recipes for nothing. Or at least if I do, to know I have to switch back.

 

Laidback

Long time reader and 1st time poster.


I did 6800 on XT hardmode the other night. Using the 3/51/17 build. I was 8th on the meters. Our warrior broke 8k and topped it. It was weird because he was actually pulling away from the rest of us about halfway through the encounter. I did not miss a single refresh for the fight unless I was G bombed and had to move out but there was nothing that I could do to catch the guy.

It is very weird as I am so very used to being on par with the rogues with my blood spec.

Now here is my issue. I am watching special abilities miss. I tested this on the boss dummy in ebon hold and i was seeing the same thing happen. Missing with my icy touch with an 10.06% hit rating (+3% from UH tree) shouldn't be happening. I have 28 expertise before the added 5% from the frost tree.

 

sweberry

@Laidback:
Virulence is spells only, so that has nothing to do with your special abilities hit cap, i.e. strikes. Missing with icy touch when on 10% is not weird since the spell hit cap with misery (a shadow priest) is what, 13 or 14%? Been a while since I played a caster so I don't remember exactly.

Anyway, you will keep on missing with IT from time to time but you should not go over 8 percent when looking at the melee hit %, ergo you are just too high atm. If you switch to spells in your armory or character-screen you can hover over your hit rating and it shows that your 330 rating puts you at 12.58% spell hit rating still giving IT a small chance to miss.

 

Laidback

Do not forget about the +5 to expertise from tundra stalker. You should aim for 21 with your gear from what i have read.

 

nordrassor

In the specific case of the XT encounter, getting really lucky with Rime and KM procs during the heart phase would exaggerate your damage done to the heart, and ultimately contribute to a greater average DPS number. As DW frost, apart from a single Deathchill you have no control over the talents that inflate your damage so you're left hoping that your procs activate at the right time.

If you're referring to non-heartbreaker XT fights, the randomness associated with KM and Rime carries over to each individual heart phase. As blood, you have complete control over your Hysteria + Speed Pot + Use Trinket + DRW sequence when the heart pops out the first time, and possibly the ability to pop DRW subsequent times on the heart phase. In the case of Hard-mode XT, since there is only one heart phase, you're likely to see a less noticeable difference.

With regard to the latter part of your post, expertise reduces your chance to be dodged/parried and has nothing to do with misses. You will probably benefit from reading this post Death Knight: PvE DPS, particularly the section relevant to Hit and Expertise.

 

leladax

Well, I'm referring to the character pane.

 

Foxx2405

Doesn't the expertise in the character panel include the 5 from talents?
If the hitrating you're talking about is spell hitrating then yes you'll miss on a boss dummy as 17% is the cap and you'd have 13% (remember you get 3% from raid buffs).
If the hitrating you're talking about is melee hitrating than you're over the hitcap. Which seems like a bit of a dps loss to me.

We can't say anything without a parse though.
This goes in general, the last few posts have all been about trying to e-peen boost about numbers. Can we please stop that, without parse it's totally irrelevant and not adding anything to this topic.

 

Sakuratei

It does (or at least I'm 99% sure), my character pane reads 27/27 Expertise (Expertise rating 159, 19 Expertise) which adds up 19 + 5 (Tundra Stalker) + 3 (Maces equipped and human racial)

 

sweberry

It does. His questions are answered.

And I agree with Foxx about the e-peening without even pasting a parse.

 

Shareth

Nerves of Cold Steel affect special attacks hit chance so for us soft hit cap is 5%, not 8%. Thats around 165 hit rating.

 

Qaenyin

Only thing I'm kind of uncertain on is SpellHitRating.

I assume this means just that, hit rating that only affects spells. For a dual wield EP calc it might be better to consider the fact that Hit Rating after 5% not only affects spell hit but also white hit(and as such auto-attack based procs such as Razorice, KM, BCB, Necrosis), which would presumably inflate it's value quite a bit. While it still wouldn't be breaking any records, I'm curious if that difference would put it comparable to crit rating(IE changing it from "Avoid like the plague" to "Not the best, but gear with good stats that includes this isn't instantly rendered vendor trash".)

 

• vank

Just for my own sanity, I did another 5k hour sim last night as well, and the numbers were very, very similar to the OP.

 

Evanwill

With all of the hit rating values getting thrown around (a lot of them are incorrect), here is a list of hit values we should be concerned with.

1% melee hit = 32.79 hit rating
1% spell hit = 26.23 hit rating

Specials
No talents - 8% - 8 * 32.79 = 262.32 - 263 hit rating needed
With NoCS - 5% - 5 * 32.79 = 163.95 - 164 rating needed

Spells
No talents/debuffs - 17% - 17 * 26.23 = 445.91 - 446 hit rating needed
No debuffs/Virulence - 14% - 14 * 26.23 = 367.22 - 368 hit rating needed
Debuffs/Virulence - 11% - 11 * 26.23 = 288.53 - 289 hit rating needed

White Damage
No talents - 27% - 27 * 32.79 = 885.33 - 886 hit rating needed
With NoCS - 24% - 24*32.79 = 786.96 - 787 hit rating needed

So, we have 3 ranges of hit rating that we need to value.

0 - 164 - This needs to be capped.

164 - 289 - If you want an uninterrupted rotation this needs to be capped, but should it be weighted heavier than exp/str/ArP? This is what we need to figure out.

289 - 787 - This becomes more important as our white damage becomes a bigger % or our overall damage. Since white damage is only about ~20% of our overall damage in the parses I have seen and collected other stats should be more desireable.

 

• vank

I would think the reasons why the 164-289 hit rating is important are:

(1) Frost Fever is a requirement
(2) Missing any attack pushes back an already tight rotation. Probably why Expertise is valued so high as well.

All of this assumes the sim is generating correct values, which I'm not sold on. I ran multiple 5k hour EP sims last night for a variety of specs. Half of them came out with bugged numbers (negative expertise, pre-hit cap numbers at .4/1 AP, etc.).

 

Evanwill

Assuming the stat weights in the OP are correct (which I agree, I'm not 100% sold on), we would want to follow these rules in general when gearing.

1. Cap hit rating for specials (164 hit).
2. Cap expertise (26 expertise).
3. Stack strength.
4. Prefer ArP over Crit/Haste.

Weapons - SLOW/SLOW. Assuming the EP values for weapon dps and speed below are correct,

Weapon DPS 691
Weapon Speed 36029

we get

36029 * .1 = 3602.9
3602.9 / 691 = ~5.21

So, a .1 speed difference is equal to ~5.21 weapon dps.

So, [Malice] is better than [Razorscale Talon] because although it is .1 weapon speed faster, it is 179 dps - 163.3 = 15.7 dps better which is >5.21 dps.

Here's something interesting that was brought up earlier in the thread. Let's compare [Crimson Cranium Crusher] and [Remorse]. The blue item is 1.3 weapon speed slower which means that it would have to be more than 67.73 dps worse for [Remorse] to win out. Since 178.7 - 111.8 = 66.9, the blue item wins out if we throw out all of the other stats on the two weapons.

 

Shareth

I tried moving around stats in a sim. When I have 164 hit rating and remove any stat (str, crit, haste, arp) and add the same amount to hit rating, I always get lower dps. Even haste beats it which is the weakest of stats (but haste is just a little bit better, barely noticeable).

I really think its all about capping hit and expertise for specials. After that you can cap spell hit but only if you trade haste for it.

 

leladax

There may be 1 reason it's unimportant, Expertise and later Strength are in line for next beneficial stat. Plus the "utility" advantage of not missing a HB is of little importance.

 

MikeMo

Hit rating past 5% just doesn't strike me as a good stat for any spec that uses GoD due to nerves of cold steel capping our special attacks. Your OH does not miss if the MH is capped according to the parses I've seen. So, in a perfect world all you would need to rely on is your first icy touch hitting and as long as you can keep diseases up you're fine. Yes, HB's can miss but since those won't waste runes either and HB's/rime procs tend to sit around waiting for a free gcd anyway which never really seems to come if you are in blood presence. At least it doesn't in my experience thus far.

I've noticed that the EP values favor hit quite a bit but I can not imagine how hit is realistically valued that high (post 5%). Again, this is for people running GoD though and I could be way off base so correct me if I sound stupid.

 

leladax

Correct me if I'm wrong but the simulator appears to refer to Melee Hit as "up to melee special hit cap". I can't believe it values it beyond Melee and Spell Hit cap above Strength and Expertise just for the Autoattacks, Necrosis and BCB.

 

Grigori

I posted an algebraic method for solving this kind of problems in the SS Glyph numbers post in the Unholy thread. The method is equivalent to the term of the infinite series method somebody else posted a few pages later.

Applying the algebraic method to the HB glyph problem, you have...

(probability of proc'ing Rime at least once with two OBs)

(expectation value of the number of events it takes to get two consecutive failures)

...which results in...







You can switch the order of XX and YY in your rotation to give yourself more time to react to Rime procs (but this comes at a cost, of course).

 

Lazengann

I'd consider it a good idea to stay at raiding spell hit cap, 289 as said above, just so you don't have an un-interrupted rotation. Putting hit off after 5% is going to leave you with constant misses and you'll wind up losing DPS.

 

Corkscrew

This. I suppose it's a playstyle or personal preference thing to an extent, but as 2h specs prior to 3.2 I always made sure I was expertise capped. Same goes for the spell hit cap here, although I'm a bit short at the moment.

When your rotation is a guaranteed thing (barring bosses turning around and parrying whilst casting instants on people, which drives me up a wall), you're free to watch other things: cooldowns, boss timers, AoE effects of note, raid health when you're doing things like killing Detonating Lashers on Freya. All of these things are important to keep track of too, and if you're having to devote some attention to whether abilities land or not as well, it makes it that much more difficult.

A lot of theorycrafters fail to take into account the things that lie outside the numbers and spreadsheets, shit you can't really quantify. This is a good example.

 

Intropy

No. You can quantify the affects of misses on your dps, and the calculated values reflect that quantification. If you want to value hit above what it's actually worth in terms of DPS, then go for it, but it's not optimal. You are right that noticing and correcting rotations in the event of a miss places a concentration and reaction burden on the player, but it's not very much of one.

 

• vank

@Intropy. I have to agree here. Many players reading this thread are able to monitor all of the "other things" as well as their misses (I'm probably not one of them). It would be a disservice if we didn't try and find optimal results and theory based on perfect play and allowed others to adjust for their personal short comings.

 

MikeMo

What is there to constantly miss if you are using GoD though? HB is only cast when KM is up (so it can't miss), BCB which isn't picked up by many GoD specs and Necrosis are the only things. The latter two are barely noticeable if they miss compared to your overall damage.