DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand - Page 52

Astalion · 08/03/09, 12:13 PM

@Drakojin: TS doesn't work like a normal debuff though - if you for example only apply FF once, it will not get the TS bonus, it needs to be applied again when FF is already up to get the extra damage (same goes for RoR and BP, and is easily tested)

Orlgin · 08/03/09, 1:38 PM

@Astalion: How on God's green and verdant Earth did you manage to get 5.5k Obliterates while DW? Or 3.6k Frost Strikes for that matter?

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
Obliterate 4451395484 31 415402 36 63 0 10715
Plague Strike 159603987 1 58066 53 46 0 2748
Icy Touch 195375613 1 59847 46 52 0 3264
Frost Strike 2668334762 18 387049 53 46 0 6894
Howling Blast 697732557 4 80054 27 71 0 8715
Blood Strike 573200851 4 142275 50 49 0 4028
Frost Fever 484593168 3 597748 100 0 0 810
Blood Plague 482477314 3 595051 100 0 0 810
Necrosis 626758568 4 1728975 100 0 0 362
Blood Caked Blade 251781634 1 346007 100 0 0 727
Main Hand 1989156742 14 863884 44 39 15 2302
Off Hand 1145571609 8 865091 44 40 15 1324
Ghoul 321386977 2 430208 86 13 0 747
DPS 7095
Total Damage 14047369266 in 550 h
Threat Per Second 4191
Generated in 1014s
Template

W-03-51-17.xml(C:\Users\Ben\Desktop\DKSimulator0.9.7\Templates\DW-03-51-17.xml)
Priority :Frost.xml(C:\Users\Ben\Desktop\DKSimulator0.9.7\Priority\Frost.xml)
Presence :Blood
Sigil of :Awareness
RuneForge :FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation :True

Look at the huge differences between the average numbers here and the ones you show. I understand that Glyph of Disease isn't simulating as well as it should. But you really broke something or changed something. My numbers are way different than yours.

Edit: At last, I finally got a Frost Simulation over 7.2k.

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
Obliterate 4427169686 31 417128 36 63 0 10613
Plague Strike 152696151 1 56442 54 45 0 2705
Icy Touch 205757537 1 58272 46 52 0 3530
Frost Strike 2904462252 20 387264 52 47 0 7499
Howling Blast 760163130 5 80536 28 71 0 9438
Blood Strike 557115352 3 140252 51 48 0 3972
Frost Fever 522094452 3 597564 100 0 0 873
Blood Plague 473052445 3 594632 100 0 0 795
Necrosis 616679741 4 1729246 100 0 0 356
Blood Caked Blade 247713017 1 345535 100 0 0 716
Main Hand 1958029427 13 864509 44 39 15 2264
Off Hand 1126151100 7 864737 44 39 15 1302
Ghoul 316229671 2 432832 87 12 0 730
Raz 7780581 0 864509 100 0 0 9
DPS 7210
Total Damage 14275094542 in 550 h
Threat Per Second 4261
Generated in 1123s
Template

W-03-51-17.xml(C:\Users\Ben\Desktop\DKSimulator0.9.7\Templates\DW-03-51-17.xml)
Priority :Frost.xml(C:\Users\Ben\Desktop\DKSimulator0.9.7\Priority\Frost.xml)
Presence :Blood
Sigil of :Awareness
RuneForge :Razorice / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation :True

Astalion's priority and switching Blood Strike glyph to Disease did the trick. Used dual FC by mistake in the first one.

Kithus · 08/03/09, 1:41 PM

@Doc: DW Unholy is not dead, its actually fairly competative -

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
Plague Strike 330132511 2 211329 52 47 0 1562
Icy Touch 1696259460 12 684195 66 32 0 2479
Blood Strike 320903616 2 181890 58 41 0 1764
Death Coil 2922977285 20 535282 66 32 0 5460
UB 584700596 4 535282 100 0 0 1092
Frost Fever 298148258 2 272267 100 0 0 1095
Blood Plague 596262121 4 543942 100 0 0 1096
Necrosis 629747196 4 1863788 100 0 0 337
Blood Caked Blade 451544087 3 559472 100 0 0 807
Wandering Plague 356544200 2 325357 99 0 0 1095
Main Hand 1997572103 14 931440 42 41 15 2144
Off Hand 1150928073 8 932348 42 41 15 1234
Ghoul 1936104525 13 2148080 86 13 0 901
Gargoyle 775610563 5 223822 86 12 0 3465
DPS 7095
Total Damage 14047434594 in 550 h
Threat Per Second 4636
Generated in 915s
Template

W-00-17-54.xml(C:\Documents and Settings\Keith\Desktop\DKSimulator0.9.6\DKSimulator0.9.6\Templates\DW-00-17-54.xml)
Priority

ualUnholy.xml(C:\Documents and Settings\Keith\Desktop\DKSimulator0.9.6\DKSimulator0.9.6\Priority\DualUnholy.xml)
Presence :Unholy
Sigil of :VengefulHeart
RuneForge :FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation :True

Build: 0/17/54 Dual Wield

This is without set bonuses and at 200 ms latency. The test also uses statset2 which falls short of the spell hit cap, a disadvantage for a DC spam spec. 4pcT9 benefits Unholy the most due to Wandering Plague and Crypt Fever. It is also worth noting that DW Unholy's best specs provide a raid buff (Ebon Plague) while DW frost's best skips imp icy talons. Further sincet he sim assumes a patchwerk style fight it fails to factor in the movement bonus of unholy presence. Nor does it take into account that a DW Frost spec is highly unlikely to keep their ghoul alive for the full duration on quite a few fights. Finally the DW Frost spec has far more room for human error with the proc watching that needs to be done.

DW Unholy is still quite strong in both the DC Spam and Oblit builds. I'm tempted to test the SS build to see where that sits right now.

Edit: The old SS build is definately dead, but I rather expected that.

@Astralion: You're pulling more DPS than I've seen managed with 3/51/17. Were you by chance using set bonsues?

Astalion · 08/03/09, 1:53 PM

@Orlgin: My average is per hand, yours is the total of MH+OH - you should notice mine are almost exactly half of yours, while hitting around twice as many times (during the same time period), it's not broken, it just uses a slightly older method for showing the results.

@Kithus: Nope, but I was using a priority option that currently isn't available in the official simulator, letting me use Pestilence in the same manner it would use BS.

Edit: @Orlgin's edit: You would get even higher numbers by switching BS to Pest entirely, I know it doesn't work unless you modify the sim, but it's worth noting.

sweberry · 08/03/09, 2:18 PM

@Orlgin: I keep getting 0/53/18 to 7310 with both BS glyph and IT glyph, I'm new to the 3.2-sim so I might be off with something..? I also get the 0/18/53 build to ~7100 so unholy is far from dead and this gives you the opportunity to choose spec depending on what buff you need to provide.

@Kithus: The old spec is definitely dead but Odii got some odd experimental spec up to ~7000 it seems (although i can't sim it higher than 6750, I believe he used a 244 dpser which is higher ilvl than 180 dpsers). I also agree that frost demands more of the player to maximize your dps and it won't always be that easy to get the perfect KMRimes etc. in actual encounters.

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/03/09, 4:54 PM

Originally Posted by Kithus

@Doc: DW Unholy is not dead, its actually fairly competative -

I get 6523dps with your setup and 7329dps with mine, using the same items (Str heavy).
Your priority is more like the Unholy spam build. I tested that a few days ago. You need a very good ping (~50ms) to make it even competitive. Judging from my raid experience, super fast spam build don't work very good on live. Unholy has taken a hefty nerf in 3.2 anyway. Less aoe dmg due to UB and PvP related nerfs on SS. The best Unholy spec are the ones that don't use SS.

Edit:
4/5 T8 seems to be the best. The optimizer doesn't seem to take the set weightings into account. Add a hardmode item and stuff with Str+Exp/Hit/Arp, then you're good to go.

Fargom · 08/03/09, 5:34 PM

@doc

Can you clarify which unholy DW build you are getting ~6500 with? Multiple people have reported both DW builds in the OP to be simming roughly on par with frost builds. Are you sure your numbers aren't off somehow? Are you simming a build that uses SS? You also speak of Unholy getting a nerf, the only major nerf to my knowledge is SS, which neither build uses. The new unholy blight is an AOE loss, but it is also a huge single target buff. Again, not sure why we are considering this a nerf when single target dps is by far the most important factor. I would say that the addition of UB, and the change to gargoyle are significant buffs to Unholy.

If you are simming 0/17/54, and getting a result of 6500 with the new UB then something is off for sure. Without boring everyone with too much personal anecdotal evidence, I'll just say that this spec is capable of surpassing this figure on live without the addition of UB.

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/03/09, 5:44 PM

I used the one I quoted, it's in the first sentence. I'm quite sure my numbers aren't off.

Fargom · 08/03/09, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

I used the one I quoted, it's in the first sentence. I'm quite sure my numbers aren't off.

Would you mind posting your sim report? Either your numbers are off, or Kithus's are. The two of you are saying that the exact same build, exact same everything is showing a 570 dps difference between simulator results. Needless to say, this is far beyond the realm of RNG differences.

Your numbers might be correct, but it would be nice to compare them to his and see where the problem is. Both simulator results can't be correct.

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/03/09, 7:08 PM

Char

Frost

Ability	Total	%	Landed	Hit%	Crit%	Miss%	Average
Obliterate	677665652	25	66640	44	55	0	10169
Plague Strike	46701368	1	16886	52	47	0	2765
Icy Touch	59290703	2	16922	42	57	0	3503
Frost Strike	587837177	22	76475	47	52	0	7686
Howling Blast	154740436	5	13943	0	100	0	11098
Blood Strike	125623689	4	33376	59	40	0	3763
Frost Fever	94817624	3	112026	100	0	0	846
Blood Plague	86088777	3	112196	100	0	0	767
Necrosis	113483706	4	322493	100	0	0	351
Blood Caked Blade	70514641	2	96599	100	0	0	729
Main Hand	360461838	13	158363	44	40	14	2276
Off Hand	206950925	7	164130	44	41	14	1260
Ghoul	52240983	1	82710	87	12	0	631
Raz	1641300	0	164130	100	0	0	10

DPS 7328
Total Damage 2638058819 in 100 h
Threat Per Second 5780
Generated in 104s
Template :Frost 0-52-19.xml
Priority :Frost.xml
Presence :Blood
Sigil of :Awareness
RuneForge :FallenCrusader / Razorice
Pet Calculation :True

Unholy DW

Ability	Total	%	Landed	Hit%	Crit%	Miss%	Average
Plague Strike	106882952	4	66604	50	49	0	1604
Icy Touch	300986698	12	125579	67	32	0	2396
Blood Strike	62720172	2	34515	56	43	0	1817
Death Coil	438685184	17	82529	67	32	0	5315
UB	87706059	3	82529	100	0	0	1062
Frost Fever	60791377	2	57592	100	0	0	1055
Blood Plague	92655830	3	87717	100	0	0	1056
Necrosis	114618932	4	345385	100	0	0	331
Blood Caked Blade	85506267	3	103581	100	0	0	825
Wandering Plague	63202153	2	59847	100	0	0	1056
Main Hand	363821042	14	169475	42	42	14	2146
Off Hand	209076979	8	175910	42	42	14	1188
Ghoul	308612863	12	399375	87	12	0	772
Gargoyle	151466040	6	45540	86	13	0	3326

DPS 6796
Total Damage 2446732548 in 100 h
Threat Per Second 4475
Generated in 128s
Template :Unholy DW.xml
Priority

ualUnholy.xml
Presence :Unholy
Sigil of :VengefulHeart
RuneForge :FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation :True

Here's the requested data (150ms). I've even improved the DualUnholy priority a bit. A set with 4/5 T8 benefits Frost even more.

Konata · 08/03/09, 7:17 PM

The number for your UB look abit low. Which glyphs are you using?

Astalion · 08/03/09, 7:30 PM

@Konata: UB doing 20% of DC looks correct, glyphs for maximal dps (in simulations) should be IT, Dark Death, Ghoul afaik.

@Doc: A quick simulation seems to suggest you're using PS too much and DC not enough, what priority are you using? (I'm getting quite good results from BP>FF>DC>IT>BS>GF>PS)

sweberry · 08/03/09, 7:31 PM

I've yet to sim the 0/17/54 spec but even if Döc's number are correct there I earlier posted that I've simmed the 0/18/53 spec (I'm not sure about the difference, or how the priority of 17/54 looks at the moment) up to 7100+, so clearly the argument of unholy DW being dead is over.

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/03/09, 7:32 PM

Originally Posted by Konata

The number for your UB look abit low. Which glyphs are you using?

Just click on the links, I've included everything. IT glyph provides more dps than the UB glyph.

Originally Posted by sweberry

I've yet to sim the 0/17/54 spec but even if Döc's number are correct there I earlier posted that I've simmed the 0/18/53 spec (I'm not sure about the difference, or how the priority of 17/54 looks at the moment) up to 7100+, so clearly the argument of unholy DW being dead is over.

You didn't use the same items as I did, so comparing the dps numbers is quite meaningless.

Originally Posted by Astalion

@Doc: A quick simulation seems to suggest you're using PS too much and DC not enough, what priority are you using?

Pastey.net - paste bin
Placing DC higher results in less dps.

Fargom · 08/03/09, 7:47 PM

Looking at the Kithus sim of 0/17/54 vs Doc's I notice a few things.

1. Kithus did a 550 hour sim, Doc did a 100 hour sim.
2. Kithus used 150 latency, Doc used 200.
3. Kithus's plague strike was 2% of total, DC was 20%. Doc's PS was 4%, DC was 17%.

Doc, I know its hard to spot errors in your own work, where do you think Kithus was incorrect? Also, on the previous page you reported 6520 for this spec, and the above shows closer to 6800. Do you attribute this gain simply to the new priority you came up with?

-Either way, as multiple posters have said, Unholy specs are much stronger than frost when movement comes into play due to stronger diseases, the new UB, and DC being a ranged attack. I strongly suspect that the Frost V. Unholy debate will end up being almost a wash when we see the live data from 3.2. Having quality theorycrafting on both will be a great benefit if a raider is asked to swap to provide either Imp icy or Ebon plague.