DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand - Page 53

Orlgin · 08/13/09, 5:03 PM

An alternative build of 0/18/53 is the Death Coil build. The Death Coil build uses both Dark Death and Unholy Blight glyphs to maximize Death Coil damage. It uses Vengeful Heart to raise it's value further. This pushes the value or Morbidity very high so three points from Reaping are removed to maximize Death Coil damage.

The build isn't perfected yet but it's DPS value is very good. I ran a quick simulation to show it's potential:

DPS 7048
Total Damage 2537357073 in 100 h

Here is the build: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...=250827000000&

This type of build is perfect for maximizing AMS potential as it has the most powerful Death Coils in the game.

Corkscrew · 08/13/09, 5:04 PM

Originally Posted by Intropy

No. You can quantify the affects of misses on your dps, and the calculated values reflect that quantification. If you want to value hit above what it's actually worth in terms of DPS, then go for it, but it's not optimal. You are right that noticing and correcting rotations in the event of a miss places a concentration and reaction burden on the player, but it's not very much of one.

You're missing my point. You cannot quantify every aspect of dps for every fight in every situation, at least not realistically. In the case of DW, that leaves two options: ignore the spell hit cap and choose to react to misses as they happen, allowing for the possibility of your own error, or sacrifice some raw dps to attain the spell hit cap and not have to worry about it.

Like I said initially, it's a playstyle preference. Nowhere in my post do I fault someone for choosing the former option. I simply choose the latter, especially since it makes it that much easier to also raid lead (which I'm almost always doing).

Sakuratei · 08/13/09, 6:11 PM

Originally Posted by MikeMo

What is there to constantly miss if you are using GoD though? HB is only cast when KM is up (so it can't miss), BCB which isn't picked up by many GoD specs and Necrosis are the only things. The latter two are barely noticeable if they miss compared to your overall damage.

I think Pestilence can be resisted, but I'm not fully sure. If it is, then it may have tremendous impacts on DPS when you have a resist.

If I'm wrong and Pestilence can't resist on the main target it is used on, then yeah it's a manner of choosing I suppose. Then again, it's not like we're throwing out massive amounts of stats if we go for spell hitcap, a gear set where nearly every piece is crit/arp is going to be hard to find (as haste is less desired than hit, afaik).

Lazengann · 08/13/09, 6:25 PM

Originally Posted by MikeMo

What is there to constantly miss if you are using GoD though? HB is only cast when KM is up (so it can't miss), BCB which isn't picked up by many GoD specs and Necrosis are the only things. The latter two are barely noticeable if they miss compared to your overall damage.

I didn't mean CONSTANTLY as in all the time, I meant they will miss and it will affect your DPS in some way. Let's say pestilence misses when you need to refresh your diseases, you lose them, and you need to do IT-PS to being them back up. You lose an obliterate, 2 GCDs, and the possibility of popping Blood Tap and UA. I know somebody is going to bring this up, I know I'm not spell hit cap'd and that's due to the fact that none of the gear I want has dropped yet.

Cambrio · 08/13/09, 6:44 PM

Because Frostilate is heavily dependent on Obliterate damage, would it be wise to get a base of 25%-35% ArP for PvE DPS? I imagine it scaling extremely well, but I want you fellow EJ DK enthusiasts to tell me I'd be doing the right thing first.

• Darkside · 08/13/09, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by MikeMo

HB is only cast when KM is up (so it can't miss).

This is not true. I have many times used KM with HB only to see it miss and consume the proc. Go test it on a boss dummy if you don't believe me.

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/13/09, 6:51 PM

Originally Posted by Cambrio

Because Frostilate is heavily dependent on Obliterate damage, would it be wise to get a base of 25%-35% ArP for PvE DPS? I imagine it scaling extremely well, but I want you fellow EJ DK enthusiasts to tell me I'd be doing the right thing first.

You either go for maximum Arp or you just take whatever happens to be on the items you wear. Str is always the better choice. Arp is a good side-stat, but nothing more.

Originally Posted by Darkside

This is not true. I have many times used KM with HB only to see it miss and consume the proc. Go test it on a boss dummy if you don't believe me.

Only hits can crit, it's a two-roll system.

• Asphyxialol · 08/13/09, 6:53 PM

Originally Posted by Sakuratei

I think Pestilence can be resisted, but I'm not fully sure. If it is, then it may have tremendous impacts on DPS when you have a resist.

If I'm wrong and Pestilence can't resist on the main target it is used on, then yeah it's a manner of choosing I suppose. Then again, it's not like we're throwing out massive amounts of stats if we go for spell hitcap, a gear set where nearly every piece is crit/arp is going to be hard to find (as haste is less desired than hit, afaik).

This is dead on. Pestilence *can* be resisted (at least with my current stats without 3% spell hit on the target). I was testing in Undercity last night on the boss dummy with the L80 dummy beside it. Pestilence did not refresh the duration on my diseases on the current target, but the L80 dummy had its diseases refreshed perfectly. Having this happen with a GoDisease rotation could spell a very large dps loss. The spell hit cap and then, to a lesser extent, the expertise soft cap are both very important to the GoDisease rotation.

Also, as mentioned above, HB is a spell, and regardless of KM or not is still subject to spell hit checks.

Cambrio · 08/13/09, 6:54 PM

Originally Posted by Darkside

This is not true. I have many times used KM with HB only to see it miss and consume the proc. Go test it on a boss dummy if you don't believe me.

^ This.

Your procs can still miss, but I've found it's pretty unwise to use Rime without KM anyway- so you're still doing the right thing by waiting.

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

You either go for maximum Arp or you just take whatever happens to be on the items you wear. Str is always the better choice. Arp is a good side-stat, but nothing more.

Thanks for the quick response. If I happen to score some ArP so be it, but otherwise I'll just continue to focus on the ever reliant Strength.

leladax · 08/13/09, 7:14 PM

We're going about generalizations about what is 'important'. Of course it's important to have spell hit cap compared to not having spell hit cap. But let's be realistic. This is a game with a limited amount of slots to do a few gems and a couple of enchants. It is insane to go for spell hit cap if your expertise is not capped and later when there is Strength to choose from.

These are all 'important' only if the gear is forcing you to have them, not when you can choose to get something better. And I'm talking realistically not strictly through simulator results: Missing very rarely an IT, and especially a HB, is nothing compared to having to be dodged chance on every single attack, or considerably less damage in overall.

Kaejin · 08/13/09, 7:30 PM

Well, interestingly, it's incredibly easy to get both spell hit and exp capped with Trial gear.

leladax · 08/13/09, 7:51 PM

I note a considerable extra utility advantage of Expertise, adding to the 'realism' of it if you will: sometimes you are forced to face the target at least temporarily, sometimes even constantly.

Cambrio · 08/13/09, 7:55 PM

Originally Posted by leladax

I note a considerable extra utility advantage of Expertise, adding to the 'realism' of it if you will: sometimes you are forced to face the target at least temporarily, sometimes even constantly.

True enough, even on old fights like Heigan I remember wishing my expertise was higher- an easy example.

Odii · 08/14/09, 1:32 AM

Originally Posted by Grigori

I posted an algebraic method for solving this kind of problems in the SS Glyph numbers post in the Unholy thread. The method is equivalent to the $\[N_{\infty}$ term of the infinite series method somebody else posted a few pages later.

Applying the algebraic method to the HB glyph problem, you have...

$p = 1 - 0.85^{4} = 0.47799375$ (probability of proc'ing Rime at least once with two OBs)

$e = \frac{1 + p - p^{2}}{p^{2} - 2 \cdot p + 1} \approx 4.5855382486485$ (expectation value of the number of events it takes to get two consecutive $p$ failures)

...which results in...

$P_{hb} \approx 0.478$

$P_{bs} \approx 0.304$

$P_{it} \approx 0.218$

You can switch the order of XX and YY in your rotation to give yourself more time to react to Rime procs (but this comes at a cost, of course).

Except that is clearly not the correct percentages.

A quick way to prove it:

Every Icy Touch is proceeded by a Blood Strike.

~52% of Blood strokes are followed by an Icy Touch. The other ~48% are followed by Howling Blasts (% of Rime procs after the next 2 OBs).

Therefor the ratio of BS's to IT's should be 1:0.52, or 1.92:1.

Yet the ratio of BS's to IT's you suggest are less then 1.5:1.

Zexion0 · 08/14/09, 2:20 AM

I don't mean to derail the thread from the sweet TC you guys are doing but i have a small question.

Sigil of Virulence vs. Sigil of Awareness for a 0/53/18 build, what's better? I've heard that Awareness was better but the idea of an extra 400 AP 95% of the time just makes me doubt it.

Aezoc · 08/14/09, 2:21 AM

I noticed they've hotfixed pestilence giving two death runes now. Trouble is, they appear to have fixed it by preventing you from getting more than one death rune per 1.5s or something. This is a problem on any of the couple fights where we still benefit from UP, and it totally wrecked my rotation on Yogg tonight until I figured it out. To be safe, weave something else in between 2x BS in UP. Hopefully 3.2.1 will have a proper fix.

Edit: I just noticed this was mentioned a few pages back, but I'm not sure anyone specified the root cause. It's definitely new behavior, I haven't ever seen it prior to the DD pestilence fix.

Touarex · 08/14/09, 2:26 AM

Im very sorry to ask about this. But i have been wondering if not it would gain a little dps taking 2 or 3 points in Subversion since Obliterate is a big part of my dps.
Im running with the 0/53/18 now, but would like to see a comparison of having talents in Subversion, and not have. I tried to test it myself but didnt really see any difference, but the raid setup was different so it wasnt a fair comparison I guess. Is there a post in here somewhere that show this comparison? I just cant seem to find it.

Also I was thinking. Im running 2x Malice. But I think that the mace "Vulmir, the northern tempest" has really good stats. Howcome noone has mentioned this mace?

Thanks in advance

Zexion0 · 08/14/09, 2:43 AM

Originally Posted by Touarex

Im very sorry to ask about this. But i have been wondering if not it would gain a little dps taking 2 or 3 points in Subversion since Obliterate is a big part of my dps.
Im running with the 0/53/18 now, but would like to see a comparison of having talents in Subversion, and not have. I tried to test it myself but didnt really see any difference, but the raid setup was different so it wasnt a fair comparison I guess. Is there a post in here somewhere that show this comparison? I just cant seem to find it.

Also I was thinking. Im running 2x Malice. But I think that the mace "Vulmir, the northern tempest" has really good stats. Howcome noone has mentioned this mace?

Thanks in advance

Good question, i've been planning to do the same change since i've been having a lot of issues pulling aggro off my tanks. I was thinking taking the 3 points out of BCB. Vulmir is an amazing 1hander, am currently DWing it with Malice. If you can obtain Vulmir, then by all means use it.

Sakuratei · 08/14/09, 2:53 AM

Originally Posted by Zexion0

Good question, i've been planning to do the same change since i've been having a lot of issues pulling aggro off my tanks. I was thinking taking the 3 points out of BCB. Vulmir is an amazing 1hander, am currently DWing it with Malice. If you can obtain Vulmir, then by all means use it.

Malice is used as an example to discuss the DPS difference between a 2.6 weapon and a 2.5 weapon. Vul'mir is obviously a good choice of a weapon.

Zexion0 · 08/14/09, 3:07 AM

Originally Posted by Sakuratei

Malice is used as an example to discuss the DPS difference between a 2.6 weapon and a 2.5 weapon. Vul'mir is obviously a good choice of a weapon.

Ahh guess i didn't understand his question fully. Back to my earlier query, does anyone have any info on SoAwareness Vs. SoVirulence?

Sakuratei · 08/14/09, 4:10 AM

Originally Posted by Aezoc

I noticed they've hotfixed pestilence giving two death runes now. Trouble is, they appear to have fixed it by preventing you from getting more than one death rune per 1.5s or something. This is a problem on any of the couple fights where we still benefit from UP, and it totally wrecked my rotation on Yogg tonight until I figured it out. To be safe, weave something else in between 2x BS in UP. Hopefully 3.2.1 will have a proper fix.

Edit: I just noticed this was mentioned a few pages back, but I'm not sure anyone specified the root cause. It's definitely new behavior, I haven't ever seen it prior to the DD pestilence fix.

Ah, so that's why I was getting weird rune setups in Naxx10 last night. I would use two Blood Strikes and then end up with 1 Death rune. At first I thought I was messing up my UA macro, but this explains it a bit more.

GBF · 08/14/09, 4:39 AM

Originally Posted by Aezoc

I noticed they've hotfixed pestilence giving two death runes now. Trouble is, they appear to have fixed it by preventing you from getting more than one death rune per 1.5s or something. This is a problem on any of the couple fights where we still benefit from UP, and it totally wrecked my rotation on Yogg tonight until I figured it out. To be safe, weave something else in between 2x BS in UP. Hopefully 3.2.1 will have a proper fix.

Edit: I just noticed this was mentioned a few pages back, but I'm not sure anyone specified the root cause. It's definitely new behavior, I haven't ever seen it prior to the DD pestilence fix.

I reported it as a bug the other day. It's most prevalent in Unholy Presence but I've heard you can also get it in Blood Presence if you're mashing the key. I had to change my rotation to weave in a Frost Strike, Rimed HB, or HoW between my two Blood Strikes to fix it, and that's definitely a slight DPS loss. No response yet, so I don't even know if they know about it. I do find it funny that the Blood Strike -> Blood Tap -> 2 instant death runes still works, though.

Foxx2405 · 08/14/09, 5:11 AM

Originally Posted by Grigori

I posted an algebraic method for solving this kind of problems in the SS Glyph numbers post in the Unholy thread. The method is equivalent to the $\[N_{\infty}$ term of the infinite series method somebody else posted a few pages later.

Applying the algebraic method to the HB glyph problem, you have...

$p = 1 - 0.85^{4} = 0.47799375$ (probability of proc'ing Rime at least once with two OBs)

$e = \frac{1 + p - p^{2}}{p^{2} - 2 \cdot p + 1} \approx 4.5855382486485$ (expectation value of the number of events it takes to get two consecutive $p$ failures)

...which results in...

$P_{hb} \approx 0.478$

$P_{bs} \approx 0.304$

$P_{it} \approx 0.218$

You can switch the order of XX and YY in your rotation to give yourself more time to react to Rime procs (but this comes at a cost, of course).

Hmm my calculations were off (chance to get IT should be the chance to not proc rime on 4 consecutive obliterates; i said 6). But these seem a bit dodgy too, for the same reason Odii thinks its off.

Kaejin · 08/14/09, 6:31 AM

Originally Posted by GBF

I reported it as a bug the other day. It's most prevalent in Unholy Presence but I've heard you can also get it in Blood Presence if you're mashing the key. I had to change my rotation to weave in a Frost Strike, Rimed HB, or HoW between my two Blood Strikes to fix it, and that's definitely a slight DPS loss. No response yet, so I don't even know if they know about it. I do find it funny that the Blood Strike -> Blood Tap -> 2 instant death runes still works, though.

Ahhh, this would explain the weird death rune problems. I'm glad to finally know what causes it now. Throwing a FS or KM/Rime in between blood strikes seems like the best way to deal with it for now. Any dps loss from juggling the order of abilities around this way is probably pretty small so long as both runes get used and you don't waste any GCDs. BS -> FS -> BS just means that you have to throw in two FS before you normally would have used an Oblit in 10 seconds or so.

Villie · 08/14/09, 7:58 AM

Hey guys,

Just a quick question wuts ur take on swtiching presence mid fight? Was doing Lord Jax last night and was starting off in BP then after a couple of mins noticed i was getting RP swamped and could not spent it fast enough. However if i started the encounter in UP ended up with huge gaps in my rotation. So thought of this started in BP got to 130 Rp Emp RW bloodtap switched to UP and carried on with same rotation seemed to work well since i was getting 3-4 frost strikes off before runes came off cool down plus refreshing diseases using GofD wasnt as tight as in BP.

Any thoughts on this, wether its a good strat or flawed