DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand - Page 54

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/14/09, 8:23 AM

Originally Posted by Aezoc

I noticed they've hotfixed pestilence giving two death runes now. Trouble is, they appear to have fixed it by preventing you from getting more than one death rune per 1.5s or something. This is a problem on any of the couple fights where we still benefit from UP, and it totally wrecked my rotation on Yogg tonight until I figured it out. To be safe, weave something else in between 2x BS in UP. Hopefully 3.2.1 will have a proper fix.

Edit: I just noticed this was mentioned a few pages back, but I'm not sure anyone specified the root cause. It's definitely new behavior, I haven't ever seen it prior to the DD pestilence fix.

I've noticed that, too. Seems like the first B rune is always converted, even if it's already a D rune.

Grigori · 08/14/09, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Odii

Except that is clearly not the correct percentages.

A quick way to prove it:

Every Icy Touch is proceeded by a Blood Strike.

~52% of Blood strokes are followed by an Icy Touch. The other ~48% are followed by Howling Blasts (% of Rime procs after the next 2 OBs).

Therefor the ratio of BS's to IT's should be 1:0.52, or 1.92:1.

Yet the ratio of BS's to IT's you suggest are less then 1.5:1.

Good eye. I made a mistake solving the equation:

$e = (1 - p)\cdot(1 + e) + p\cdot(1 - p)\cdot(2 + e) + (1 - p)^{2}\cdot 2$

...where you solve for e...

$e = \frac{2 + p}{1 - 2\cdot p + p^{2}} \approx 5.5855382486485$

...which results in...

$p_{hb} \approx 0.478$

$p_{bs} \approx 0.343$

$p_{it} = \frac{1}{e} \approx 0.179$

Of course, the 2-event case is so simple one can just frac (1 - p) for BS and IT with the "proof constraint" because HB's frequency is fixed, but one encounters problems of this type with 3+ events in WoW a lot, so knowing the general solution can be useful.

Originally Posted by Foxx2405

Hmm my calculations were off (chance to get IT should be the chance to not proc rime on 4 consecutive obliterates; i said 6). But these seem a bit dodgy too, for the same reason Odii thinks its off.

Looking back at your method, you were on the right track here...

"If your first XX was a howling blast then the second XX will always either be BS or HB, afterall your disease timer is still on 10 seconds. If your second XX was a BS (no rime proc), then your third XX will either be HB or IT (after all diseases will run out, if you get rime you'll use HB ofc).

...until...

"That means the chance to cast IT is the chance to not have any rime procs for 6 obliterates in row."

If you replaced the second part with the "proof constraint" it would have yielded the correct answer (if you had calculated the probability of a single OB proc'ing Freezing Fog correctly also, which you had not). Your incorrect Rime proc chance combining with your incorrect use of three consecutive p failures coming out so close to the correct answer is a coincidence.

ravenseth · 08/14/09, 12:50 PM

Is there a BiS DW build thread anywhere? i read through this whole thing and didnt find anything besides builds and rotations. and i read through Optimal gearing: the BiS thread and it just talks about 2h frost and not DW. and then when they do refer to DW they point back to this thread....

anyone have a straight forward DW BiS page up right now?

Yubble · 08/14/09, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by GBF

I reported it as a bug the other day. It's most prevalent in Unholy Presence but I've heard you can also get it in Blood Presence if you're mashing the key. I had to change my rotation to weave in a Frost Strike, Rimed HB, or HoW between my two Blood Strikes to fix it, and that's definitely a slight DPS loss. No response yet, so I don't even know if they know about it. I do find it funny that the Blood Strike -> Blood Tap -> 2 instant death runes still works, though.

Definitely the case in Blood Pres. I tried out the GoD rotation last night on the dummy, and couldn't pull it off well whatsoever, for a few reasons.

1) I have ~100 ms latency, w/ occasional 1 sec lag spikes. My diseases fall off before my blood runes refresh. Long story short... GoD is next to impossible to perfect if you have >100 ms latency.

2) The blood rune bug... if I do OB-OB-Pest-BS... one of the runes doesn't convert sometimes, and the whole rotation is effed.

3) I am at 282 hit rating and have 3/3 virulence. Pestilence "missed" multiple times... but stacking more hit (w/ some other gear) results in a dps loss compared to a non-GoD rotation.

All in all... the rotation either failed, or I failed at it somehow... but it resulted in lower dps by about 100-200 for me. Do I need to be focusing more on buffed diseases? Is there some rotation problem? Or is it just not doable with my setup? If this is the case for others as well, it may be worth noting in the OP.

EDIT: Also... and yea, I'm prepared for some flaming... I've swapped out [Mirror of Truth] for [Shard of Contempt] to hit the expertise cap... any thoughts/calcs on the actual dps loss here?

• frmorrison · 08/14/09, 1:01 PM

It seems Unbreakable Armor is more dps if you can handle the runes. However, using talentchic.com shows many more DW DKs rather not worry about UA.

While majority rule isn't the best, it does show what others are doing.

Hunterlool · 08/14/09, 1:40 PM

Not taking Unbreakable Armor is very mindless, if you ask me.

Raidbuffed I have 2000ish Strength on my DK "alt". Unbreakable Armor will grant 500 Stength for 20 seconds, with it think is VERY good for 1 talent point.

The only problem all the DK´s have is: How to implement UA in a normal rotation without having any trouble with their rotation?

Here is the key to the solution of the problem:

There is one point at which you can get the UA buff without messing up your rotation. I named it UA SPOT in the following rotation:

IT -> PS -> OB -> BS -> BS -> FS / Rimeprocc

OB -> OB -> OB -> UA SPOT -> FS / Rimeprocc

I use these two neat macros:
#1
#show tooltip Unbreakable Armor
/cast blood tap
/stopcasting
/cast unbreakable armor

#2
/cancelaura blood tap

what I exactly do is follow the rotation up to "UA SPOT", then hit the first macro while hitting FS or HB button to not waste a GCD and then while following the rotation mentioned above I press the second macro within 10 seconds.
The tricky part is to clear the Blood Tap buff and thereby not messing up your rotation.

I can pull off a lot of "burst" DPS with these two macros and just wanted to share it to you

Nevertheless, I have a question to you:
It allways happens to me that i end up with nearly 130 RP if I follow the rotations mentioned in the thread while staying in BP.
BUT when running UP, I end up with free GCD´s even if I get Power Word: Shield and Rejuvination for addional Runic Power.

I just have up to 3 GCD between the "two sets of runes", hopefully you understand what I mean

Within these 3 GCD I cannot spend all RP I got , especially if there is a Rime procc to be used.
ATM I just do the rotation and don´t care about too much RP or RP cap, because my oblits are doing 25-30% of my total DMG.

Any Advice?

Tarquin · 08/14/09, 1:43 PM

Sidelight on UA: it's actually much easier to fit it into a HB Glyph rotation. Just wait for a rotation that uses a Rime proc for FF, and then use the extra frost rune on UA and save Rune Tap for squeezing in an extra OB during the duration.

I've also been giving some thought to using Rune Tap to faciliate an easy swap to UP for the duration of the buff, with the thought that using ERW will sustain at least 20 seconds of the lower GCD. Has anyone experimented with this? I think someone a few posts up mentioned presence swapping mid-combat in a more general sense.

Yubble · 08/14/09, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Hunterlool

Nevertheless, I have a question to you:
It allways happens to me that i end up with nearly 130 RP if I follow the rotations mentioned in the thread while staying in BP.
BUT when running UP, I end up with free GCD´s even if I get Power Word: Shield and Rejuvination for addional Runic Power.

Any Advice?

This is usually due to the fact that we're using Rime+KM HB during a CD that would otherwise be used for FS, plus you're getting ~5 RP per target hit by Rime+KM HB. That's 32 extra RP +5 (37) every time we use HB and don't have the GCD's do dump all our RP with FS

In unholy presence... you'll be able to use that "extra" (after using Rime+KM HB) FS every time with no problem, and sometimes - most times - you won't have any "extra" FS's to use because KM never procced w/ Rime.

Cambrio · 08/14/09, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by Villie

Hey guys,

Just a quick question wuts ur take on swtiching presence mid fight? Was doing Lord Jax last night and was starting off in BP then after a couple of mins noticed i was getting RP swamped and could not spent it fast enough. However if i started the encounter in UP ended up with huge gaps in my rotation. So thought of this started in BP got to 130 Rp Emp RW bloodtap switched to UP and carried on with same rotation seemed to work well since i was getting 3-4 frost strikes off before runes came off cool down plus refreshing diseases using GofD wasnt as tight as in BP.

Any thoughts on this, wether its a good strat or flawed

You have to remember- while having an unused full RP bar means less DPS potential, Frost Strike takes a backseat to pretty much everything in 3.2. Now, I may be biased as I've never been a fan of Unholy Presence, but you're going to be doing all you can to get those hard hitting Oblit + KM Rime's off over Frost Strike (and this means staying in BP). With AMS/speedy RP generation, this circumstance will not be unusual. I don't think we should be fooled. You should still have just enough time during your global rune cooldown to get off 2-3 FS's and get yourself back to 50% RP and not feel like you're wasting RP or using FS over essentials.

Yubble · 08/14/09, 3:22 PM

Originally Posted by Yubble

EDIT: Also... and yea, I'm prepared for some flaming... I've swapped out [Mirror of Truth] for [Shard of Contempt] to hit the expertise cap... any thoughts/calcs on the actual dps loss here?

Okay... so here's my attempt at the math for Mirror vs Shard for frost DW...
This assumes that equipping the shard will put you at expertise cap, and neither are equipped at the start of calculation.

If each one procs every 45 sec... Mirror = 222 effective AP, Shard = 102 effective AP

Going off numbers from various parses... DMG breakdown for attacks effected by Crit vs Expertise:
OB - 25%
Melee - 20%
FS - 20%
BS - 4%
PS - 5%
IT - 5%

Damage lost due to dodge/parry from being 44 expertise rating shy of cap (2.75%):
.0275 * 25 = .69%
.0275 * 20 = .55%
.0275 * 20 = .55%
.0275 * 4 = .11%
.0275 * 5 = .14%
IT not affected

total: 2.06%
equipping shard of contempt would increase your damage by this much.

Damage gained from Mirror of Truth:
(84 crit rating = 1.84% crit; double result for dk crit damage; assume FS uses KM 30% of the time, so 14% will be used for the amount affected by crit)
.0184 * 25 = .46% * 2 = .92%
.0184 * 20 = .37% * 2 = .74%
.0184 * 14 = .28% * 2 = .56%
.0184 * 4 = .074% * 2 = .15%
.0184 * 5 = .09% * 2 = .18%
.0184 * 5 = .09% * 2 = .18%

total: 2.73% total damage gained from 2% crit ( I feel like this is too high...)

However... using Mirror of Truth means attacks are dodged 2.75% of the time... so your rotation is actually extended, reducing dps.

Assuming 6k dps over 3 minutes... 2.75% of 33 attacks/min (11 per 20 sec rotation, ~100 over 3 min) affected by GCDs (assuming 4 FS per rotation) will be dodged. Those attacks make up ~ 54% of your dps, meaning 1.5% of your GCD dependent dps is dodged, increasing your rotation time in almost all cases.

1.5% of 100 attacks = 1.5 attacks missed per 3 min
This moves your total rotation time from 180 seconds (3 min) to 181.5 seconds, meaning a .83% loss of dps, bringing the actual crit based damage bonus of Mirror down to 1.90% damage. I still feel like the crit benefit is too high though, so this might actually be lower.

It seems to me that [Shard of Contempt] may actually be better than [Mirror of Truth] before expertise cap. I wouldn't be surprised if I messed something up, though.

leladax · 08/14/09, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Cambrio

True enough, even on old fights like Heigan I remember wishing my expertise was higher- an easy example

As a last note on that (additional importance of Expertise since facing the target is often inevitable), after a fast run in Nax25 today - and having in my mind that argument - I noticed something very important. In a fast "fun" run in a complex encounter like a full nax, the occasions that you're hitting stuff without being at the back of the target are simply numerous:

a) A tank may be moving about a lot
b) A 25-man may make a target hard to see if all are stacking on it
c) If you zoom-out to the max to see stuff more broadly, it may become very hard to see the target. e.g. Noth is really-really small.
d) At trash this is just a norm: Tanks moving about to catch them, a whole group stacking on them, some can't be even distinguished whether you're front or back (e.g. the ones after Rezuvious).

GBF · 08/15/09, 4:19 AM

Originally Posted by Cambrio

You have to remember- while having an unused full RP bar means less DPS potential, Frost Strike takes a backseat to pretty much everything in 3.2. Now, I may be biased as I've never been a fan of Unholy Presence, but you're going to be doing all you can to get those hard hitting Oblit + KM Rime's off over Frost Strike (and this means staying in BP). With AMS/speedy RP generation, this circumstance will not be unusual. I don't think we should be fooled. You should still have just enough time during your global rune cooldown to get off 2-3 FS's and get yourself back to 50% RP and not feel like you're wasting RP or using FS over essentials.

My damage makeup in Unholy Presence for our 25 Ulduar run (during which we did Firefighter, One Light, Vezax hard, and XT hard) had Frost Strike once again regaining it's spot as #1 portion of my dps. Being able to spend that RP gave me better results than keeping it and just buffing Obliterate and waiting for Rimed KM Howling Blasts. Your mileage may vary, but I got much better results in UP than the previous week in BP.

scrubnuts · 08/15/09, 4:55 AM

ive tried a bunch of specs and rotations as dw frost. for me the most effective spec is 10-58-3 using gylph of howling blast. the rotation looks like this: hb, ob, bs, bs, dump. hb, ob, ob, dump. using hb everytime its off cd. i know i lose dmg on ob and bs by not putting up blood plague, but the rotation is much easier to maintain, and with hb as my main attack it does nice aoe dmg for trash pulls. my gear is pretty terrible and im just wondering if players with high-end gear would find this rotation to do good dps?

Uroboros · 08/15/09, 6:03 AM

I have not found the Howling Blast spec to be effective at higher gear levels. In AoE pulls it seems great, but single target... not so great.

leladax · 08/15/09, 10:25 AM

Apparently the simulator - in its latest version - gives me optimal results if I take away the points of subversion and give full 3 to BCB, as well as maxing KM and having IIT and Merciless Combat.

Here's the full spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

PS. I'm not sure if the simulator takes into account UA and Deathchill but I don't take them personally anyway because of their on-demand high unreliability to be used optimally at all encounters.

• Asphyxialol · 08/15/09, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by leladax

Apparently the simulator - in its latest version - gives me optimal results if I take away the points of subversion and give full 3 to BCB, as well as maxing KM and having IIT and Merciless Combat.

Here's the full spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

PS. I'm not sure if the simulator takes into account UA and Deathchill but I don't take them personally anyway because of their on-demand high unreliability to be used optimally at all encounters.

1 - The simulator doesn't use UA
2 - Or Deathchill to my knowledge.
3 - It factors in IIT as being better dps because its priority can't be setup for a proper GoDisease rotation. There has been multiple posts in this thread backing disease up as a completely dominant spec in comparison to the IIT equivalent.
4 - At my current gear level the difference of Subversion and BCB was 15-20 dps. Factor in the movement involved in most Ulduar fights and bam, Subversion pulls ahead, in addition to its nice threat bonus. This isn't even including that BCB is sporadic at best, again as shown by numerous reports in this thread.

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/15/09, 1:56 PM

UA is in the sim, as far as I know.
GoD specs aren't completely dominant. They're slightly better at best.

leladax · 08/15/09, 2:12 PM

Oh, don't get me wrong, I realize the importance of messages in here praising GoD as an important alternative, but I consciously don't use that spec and go for glyph of IT because I consider GoD rotation unrealistic at least to my own perspective in the game. Simply put: A significant portion of encounters do not let me use a rotation for more than 1 minute or encounters can be multi-part. Secondly, several encounters require a DPS to do extra jobs, breaking a tight rotation and thirdly, mistakes can be made. ITalons make a rotation of IT, quite less of a burden, knowing an important ability that additionally significantly bufs Necrosis, BCB and the rest of the raid also procs. In few words, it's safer and more realistic.

Afabar · 08/15/09, 2:38 PM

1 - UA is used in the simulator and simulate the BT+UA macro.
2 - Deathchill implementation could be enhanced but adding about half a crit every 2 minutes is not very visible.

• Asphyxialol · 08/15/09, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

UA is in the sim, as far as I know.
GoD specs aren't completely dominant. They're slightly better at best.

-Unbreakable armor is a quality investment for a single point, most of the builds in this section don't have it due to problems with the simulator using it correctly. Feel free to alter the below builds by a point to obtain unbreakable armor.

Has something changed since the latest revision of the OP?

Afabar · 08/15/09, 3:44 PM

I have dig into the release notes, UA is available since 03/29/09.
However, I don't know where from came the feeling that it's not implemented.

7alisman · 08/15/09, 4:10 PM

From my understanding the issues mentioned in your quote with regards to UA being improperly represented in the sim is that it doesn't necessarily use UA at the 'best times'. Namely in conjunction with your trinkets/heroism/merciless combat or to effectively incorporate it into a rotation BT/UA/cancel aura option to prevent disturbance with your rune pairs.

Foxx2405 · 08/15/09, 4:15 PM

Nah, When i did my sims I said that I excluded UA from some runs because i found it to have a bit sporadic results on it.

I'm not really sure how the sim runs, but if it uses UA on every cooldown that could explain it, because UA can only be effectively used in certain parts of your rotation. Using it outside of those might makes you lose an obliterate or something.

Anyway I got some odd results, so i dropped it from my build to get a better comparison between talents. I think the OP took that for UA being bugged in the sim.

UA has always been a dps increase though. It's still a good talent if used properly, and the closest thing frost gets to a nuke cooldown. I'm definitely taking it back in my own spec soon.

Desperados · 08/15/09, 4:29 PM

hello!

I'm sorry if this has already been discussed but I'm thinking about to break the 4p-t8-bonus. Is it usefull to break the 4p-t8-bonus to get overall better stats and only take the 2piece t8-bonus? or is the 4er-bonus too good?

Skullxlord · 08/15/09, 5:38 PM

As far as the issue with implementing UA into our 0/53/18 rotation (Non-GoHB)

What if we switched the 2nd obliterate with the use of the blood runes?

It would be IT PS OB BS BS <Dump> OB OB OB then right as we use the last OB we use the UA Macro with blood tap and the cancel aura.

#show Unbreakable Armor
/cast blood tap
/stopcasting
/cast unbreakable armor
/cancelaura blood tap

Then there would only be a minor delay on the last blood rune.