Erekose

During attempts on GV hardmode last night in 25 I was doing fairly well ~5500-5700 dps with standard 53/18 BP double disease rotation but was curious as to how ITx6 in UP would do considering the new changes and nerfing of FS damage. I was happily surprised that my DPS went up by ~200-300 (#3 on GV, top melee though the rogues were interrupting) when using this spec:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10192

What lead me away from standard 53/18 was Necrosis and BCB were *always* giving me less than 1% DPS per point (Necrosis usually ~3.5%, BCB ~2-2.5%) and I was really unhappy with having to stick in BP given all the excellent sources of RP soaking in the current raid content. I expected this spec/rotation to perform much worse, and ESPECIALLY didnt expect it to outperform the standard rotation and spec going around these forums.

I suppose I could chaulk part of the difference up to me being 'better' at the itx6 rotation than the standard diseases > OB spam priority in BP, but its honestly pretty boring and slow in a BP rotation and as long as you're EXP/HIT capped very much the same each time excluding Rime/KM priority....but I really do think that there is something to be said for this 'new' itx6 rotation and spec.

Definitely not going to win the sim wars by any stretch of the imagination but I figured I'd post it considering my good fortune. Unfortunately this spec/rotation changes the stat weights around because ArP is hardly useful and you want tons of crit and AP for your spells and FS.

For those who are unfamiliar with ITx6 rotation you can check out my vid from last patch:

Arioch ITx6 Machine Gun Rotation By Erekose - World of Warcraft Movies

edit: apologies for not being able to post any parse information, hopefully will be able to in the next week or so.

 

wizkhalifa

@Erekose

very glad you did these tests, as how i looooved playing in Unholy Presence when ITx6 first came out.

back to Sigil of the Vengeful Heart =)

 

Rhyane

I did some testings for this since I did not believe that with a GoD-Specc you just need to get 5% hit. Results were kind of what I was expecting:

111 Pestilences
100 landed
11 miss
misschance: 9.909%

Not actually accurate because of the low quantity, but it shows in which direction this goes.
I did the testing on the boss dummy with 183 hit rating (5,58% melee and 6,98% spell), putting of some of my gear.

I don't know whether this is taken into account when calculating the EP Value of the spellhit-cap but a single pestilence miss can screw our whole rotation and has a major impact on our dps.
It's not just a gcd that we get pushed back in our rotation like it is with expertise. It means, that we need to built up our whole rotation including to double apply our diseases and so on.

As stated it's not very hard to get the spellhit-cap with the current ulduar/coliseum gear without losing too many important stats.

 

Stealthah

Im just curious if there is a DW BIS thread anywhere?

Ive seen several UH/BLOOD/2H FROST BIS charts but no DW BIS charts. Anyone know where one might be? =D

 

Rombat

Erekose while in a perfect world ITx6 might be able to keep up in RP heavy environments with the BP rotations I find it hard to believe the itemization for it will continue to exist. Blizz seems to be pushing ArP, as it is rather overflowing on gear, and I don't know if the itemization for an ITx6 build would persist. I'd view it as the problem SS UH had/has, where it just doesn't scale well enough with the provided gear, and in top end gear starts to (or now with the nerfs has) fall behind.

Now, there is the possibility it won't be outscaled sufficiently enough to make ITx6 too much weaker in WotLK, however I think it would need to be tested, and I'm not sure how you'd do that as last I checked RP soaking wasn't something the sim handled all that well. Might want to be something to keep note of, but I just don't see it being able to sustain similar damage as you'd have to take subpar peices or get gear for it that isn't quite right.

 

Erekose

Well, there are a number of things in favor of and against the ITx6 playstyle. I agree that scaling might be an issue as regards to itemization with ArP, also this build does not benefit from t9 bonuses to the degree that other builds might...

ArP may be showing up more than it has in the past but going through the loot lists of the new 10 and 25 man I see many many items that have none - this build wants spell hit, exp cap then loads of STR/AP and crit. I will not be shooting for t9 bonuses, instead focusing on better stat distribution through offset items.

As for sims...I go by what performs best in the raid scenarios I run. I did multiple nights of running with the spec that wins on the sims and found that it was clunky and not as competitive as ITx6 even though it benefits from 'superior scaling' and benefits more from ArP as well as being backed up more thoroughly by theorycraft.

 

wizkhalifa

AP 100

Strength 261

Agility 114

Crit 144

Haste 126

Armor Pen 185

Expertise 347

Hit 388

Spell Hit 120

Weapon DPS 691

Weapon Speed 36029

2T8 12000

4T8 13076

2T9 26615

Based on this stat table, I was wondering how much hit(8%) and expertise(26) are worth AFTER the cap.
I have been told that after hitting expertise cap, its weight drops significantly. What do you guys think?

 

Foxx2405

@wizkhalifa
Just THINK for a second what the expertise softcap really is. If you just think about it you should have the answer yourself.

What does expertise do ?
Why do we go for 26 expertise ?
What happens if I'm below ?
What happens if I'm above that ?

As for the value of hitrating after the special softcap, it should be in the lists of numbers we have here. It's at the spellhitrating part.

@skullxlord
Not really sure if i understood what you meant, but if you use that macro before the last obliterate, You will use a deathrune for UA, then convert another deathrune, and then cancel the deathrune with the cancelaura.

You are left with a blood and deathrune.

That macro you have only works right before you do the double blood strikes, or right AFTER the last obliterate of the rotation.

 

Naivedo

Is expertise worth geming? Epic expertise gem is 20 expertise rating which equals around 2.5 expertise. Strength gem is +20. Isn't 20 Strength of greater value then 2.5 expertise or are you guys talking about expertise rating? Because expertise looks to not stack up to strength gems if you compare the values of the gems.

If Expertise is worth 347, wouldn't expertise rating be worth 43.375 and epic gems value expertise rating equal to strength. Maybe I am just confused. I hate when they added the rating system, so confusing at times.

If you guys meant expertise and not expertise rating, I would suggest basing your math on expertise rating since gems value 1 expertise rating equal to 1 strength. This also includes ArP rating, Crit rating, Haste rating, and Hit rating which are all 1 to 1 with strength on gems.

Epic Gem Scores
Strength 261
Attack Power 200 (Epic AP Gem is 40 so 100x2)
Agility 114
Expertise Rating 43.375
ArP Rating 26.429
Special Hit Rating 11.833
Crit Rating 6.521
Haste Rating 3.843
Spell Hit Rating 3.66
White Hit Rating 3.507

All the epic gems = 20 rating (Expertise, ArP, Hit, Crit, and Haste) and 20 stats (Strength and Agility) except Attack Power which is 40.

So is this correct? Would Strength still be the greatest gem for us Death Knights?

From Wowwiki 32.79 Hit rating = 1% Hit, 32.79 Haste rating = 1% Haste, 45.91 Crit rating = 1% Crit, 8.2 Expertise rating = 1 Expertise, and 12.31 ArP Rating = 1 ArP, Hopefully I did my math correctly since I am tired.

 

sweberry

@Naivedo: I'm really not sure what you're trying to do here, but just think for a second and look at the stat weights and you will have your answer.

To clarify exactly how expertise works:
1 expertise = 0.25% less chance your melee attacks will be dodged (or parried if in front of mob).
8.2 expertise rating is = 1 expertise
the "softcap", also known as the dodgecap = 26 expertise = 214 expertise rating

the value of 1 expertise rating before the dodgecap is said to be 347
the value of 1 strength is said to be 261
(using the above stat weights)

1 epic gem = 20 expertise rating

I really don't feel like doing the math but you can obviously see how 347x20 is more than 261x20 and therefore have your answer.

EDIT: Bugged boldness.

 

Foxx2405

The values in the chart are obviously ratings

Unless you think that 2 AP is better than 1% hit.

Which means it might be worth gemming expertise before you reach 26 expertise.

 

Shareth

Anyone tried new simulator? I've ran EP calculation yesterday in a new simulator (1.0.2.1 or something) and it showed spell hit as 4th best stat with value of 200, only str, melee hit and expertise were better. Is this me doing something wrong or is it simulator or is it really true?

 

Qaenyin

It's possible it's calculating spell hit as both spell hit and melee hit above the softcap(which'd be correct). I'm honestly surprised if it works out to be above arpen in effectiveness though. I could see it being above crit and haste, but above Arpen?

 

Fargom

It could easily be accurate, as a few people have pointed out our rotations are very tight. Any missed Icy touch is devastating to the rotation. Also, wasting a GCD and a rime/KM proc only to have the howling blast miss is frustrating, and a huge dps loss.

 

Shareth

Arpen was exactly 200 too. So according to my sim tests arpen = spell hit. Haste and crit were close to values in OP, not much changed.

 

leladax

It is devastating to the rotation at that single point in time but it happens rarely. The OP has Spell Hit lower than various other stats and that seems right. Simply put: Not a good idea to gem spell hit and not strength and before it expertise to soft cap.

 

Fargom

I'm well aware of the values in the OP, I was just saying that the values coming off of the new simulator *could* be accurate. We can't discount data just because we don't feel that it is correct. This topic is easily worth looking deeper into, and I don't think you have ground to stand on if you are claiming that you already know the answer.

 

Souli

I just checked the release notes of 1.0.2:

1.0.2 Release notes
* EP calculation corrected some more
* DC+HB were using melee hit
* Ghoul 3.2 hit+exp changes

Which would explain why spell hit is favoured more now since HB used melee hit before. So the higher value of spell hit in the ep calculation can be accurate.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Souli.png

 

Shareth

Im also very interested how this works with Nerves of Cold Steel? Does 5% melee cap equals to Ghoul being hit capped or not? I think it does not which also increases value of hit beyond 5%.

 

Qaenyin

This has another implication if true. If spell hit isn't being calculated as I mentioned and is in fact, being calced as simply "spell hit" yet still equal to arpen, then that means it isn't even taking into account autoattack miss rate in the EP calc, meaning hit prior to spell hit cap is even higher in value.

 

leladax

I agree (even though I'm doubtful spell hit will be proven very critical). I'm willing to run some EP runs myself. I suggest anyone reading this topic and can spare a night's computer run, to do EP simulations on their spec.

 

mahal

I am also getting a much higher spell hit value after the new updates to the sim.

AttackPower	100
Strength	270
Agility	138
CritRating	181
HasteRating	129
ArmorPenetrationRating	252
ExpertiseRating	396
HitRating	446
SpellHitRating	230
2T8	28571
4T8	33650
2T9	49523

I'm using pestilence glyph with this priority:
<BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
<KMRime></KMRime>
<KMFrostStrike></KMFrostStrike>
<FrostFever></FrostFever>
<Obliterate></Obliterate>
<BloodStrike></BloodStrike>
<FrostStrike></FrostStrike>
<Rime></Rime>

I think the values are reasonable. Always soft cap your exp and hit. Then Str > ArP > hit > crit > haste = agi.

 

• vank

Why would you prioritize Blood Plague over Frost Fever when both Howling Blast and Frost Strike benefit from the latter and not the former. Am I missing something (probable).

 

Arranf

Because Blood Plague does higher damage as a DoT itself I believe.

 

sweberry

No, Tundra Stalker and Frost Fever is way more damage than Blood Plague - it's just wrong.
Also has there been any proof to prioritizing KMFS over Obli has been a dpsincrease? I used to prio it after Obliterate.