I would be interested to see your results. My one complaint with frost is the lack of a trigger ability that provides a boost on demand. Blood has DRW, Unholy has Gargoyle, and Frost technically has UA but it seems a lot of people gloss over it because of the 1F cost.

Three fasts questions for dw please.

1)What is the cap hit with dual?

2) Is arp neccesary? or only strenght? (Frost/Unholy Spec)

3) Slow/Slow or Slow/Fast weapons?

Sorry for my english and thanks

It has been made quite clear that a Slow main hand weapon is ideal for both the Frost and Unholy specs discussed at the beginning of this topic. However, how much weapon DPS is that worth? For example, is it worth it to use Titansteel Bonecrusher over Split Greathammer as my main hand even though the weapon DPS gap is very large?

I've read nearly all of this topic so far, but I haven't yet found a concrete answer to my question.

As far as stat weights go for FROST duel wield, I believe it will be based more like the blood stats. From what I have read it looks as if a lot of our rotations would be OB heavy, which is physical damage if I'm not mistaken. Not to mention all of the white damage coming in with our auto attack. So I think it may look like frost will consider armor pen up closer to the top of the stat weights this time around. So perhaps something like str / armor pen / hit / crit / exp /haste?

Heh, boggles my mind that people still ask this question...

Use the highest AVERAGE DAMAGE wpn you have. People say "use slow wpns" because they higher average damage than an equivalent ilvl fast wpn. Average damage = top end damage + low end damage / 2.

These are the first numbers that appear on a weapon (i.e. 170 - 320; 245 avg damage)

In some cases, when a fast wpn has much higher dps, regardless of wpn speed or damage, it will be a dps increase.

In the case of bonecrusher vs splithammer, I'm just guessing that the bonecrusher will net slightly more dps.

10 dps is not a "large" gap. Go do a couple of 3 minute dummy tests and see for yourself.

I am well aware that average damage is what matters. What I'm asking is whether or not the 100+ gain in average damage the Bonecrusher gives you is worth the 13 weapon dps loss.

Its already been proven that even the best fast weapons are a dps loss compared to the worst blue slow weapons unless you are talking about 17/54 or 18/53 and only the off hand. As far as the game currently goes, there is no fast weapon that does enough dps to top the blue rep swords that you can get from the ebon blade.

I see very little dissent on Deathchill, but it strikes me as an awful talent for PvE dps.

You are forcing one crit every 2 minutes... which might have crit anyways. Suppose you use it with an ability that hits for 8k more as a crit than a hit, every 2min, and that ability has a 40% crit rate... the expected value of deathchill is a whopping 40 DPS. Increasing the crit rate and decreasing the difference between crit and hit (which will probably make it better resemble reality) bring that number down. This puts deathchill at a ballpark 0.4% to 0.6% DPS gain per point.

Yes, it can do better cheesing it in an AOE pack with HB, but one big pop on an AOE pack every 2 mins is unlikely to be useful outside of very limited situations.

The listed builds tend to favor deathchill over unbreakable armor, even when deathchill isn't performing any filler role. Seems backwards to me... am I missing something?

I haven't seen anyone mention it yet, but I've noticed a little bug that's turning both blood runes into death runes of I pestilence against multiple targets.

Could someone point me to the post comparing 53/18 Blood Pres vs Unholy Pres? From what Ive seen playing on live tonight, I am seeing a lot of rotation clip using blood presence. My rotation is as posted page 1, throwing in HB occasionally on a KM proc. I just wonder if this isn't similar to how it was found with the single disease 2h frost build where UP ran higher damage than BP due to non-clipping. Like I realize the sims show one thing, but taking into account human error, movement based fights etc, and non clipping, is the difference that great between the two, or in leu of a reply, could someone point me to the post if I missed it somewhere in here?

That's what I've experienced in the simulator, too. Pestilence just doesn't work for Frost, especially in raid conditions.


I've played a bit in the simulator (latest SVN version with corrected Horn). Virulence sigil, no set bonus, high Butchery value to simulate extra rp gain.
BP, 0/2 Butchery -> DPS 7273
BP, 20/2 Butchery -> DPS 7372
UHP, 0/2 Butchery -> DPS 7047
UHP, 0/2 Butchery, Horn30rp -> DPS 7234
UHP, 0/2 Butchery, Horn50rp -> DPS 7419
UHP, 20/2 Butchery -> DPS 7849
UHP, 10/2 Butchery -> DPS 7461 (That would be 105rp/s or 80 per AMS)

and while we're at it, some Unholy DW (Just for testing and not for comparing to Frost):
UHP, 0/2 Butchery -> DPS 6523 (Apparently you don't have to pay 25 badges, Unholy fans )
UHP, 10/2 Butchery -> DPS 6614 (That would be 105rp/s or 80 per AMS)

AMS opportunities and/or heavy movement seem to benefit UHP, sometimes by a lot. Maybe someone could test this, too.