No, Tundra Stalker and Frost Fever is way more damage than Blood Plague - it's just wrong.
Also has there been any proof to prioritizing KMFS over Obli has been a dpsincrease? I used to prio it after Obliterate.
I haven't seen any math in a bit, but the consensus seems to be that using your KM procs immediately is best, given that it procs off auto attacks, and holding them back just means you might waste a proc.
No, Tundra Stalker and Frost Fever is way more damage than Blood Plague - it's just wrong.
Also, there is the utility advantage of IT being ranged. While it may be irrelevant to a simulator's results per se, it's realistic and a simulator imitates reality.
if i have been reading this post correctly, which im 98% sure i got everything correct, we need 5% hit to max specials because of nerve of cold steel, and then 26 expertise (6.50% chance to not be dodged) for your max dps next, and then str and then spell hit cap? or is it spell hit and then str after that? do you gem straight exp/str, or should you try to gem for spell hit now with the new fixes to the sim?
My question is about GoDisease and it's application of FF and BP.
Say I just procced Fallen Crusader and Greatness, and then apply my diseases.
And thoughout the fight, I re-apply my diseases using Pestilence.
Has anyone done any testing with this? The question being: Will the Str Bonus from Greatness and FC I used to apply the diseases in the first place, last me throughout the fight using GoDisease? Or will they just re-apply using the current strength?
I'd test it myself but I'm currently at work.
If so, this should put GoDisease even higher.
There is currently a discussion whether spell hit is more valuable than it was previously thought, so don't immediately discount it as worse than strength but IMHO, it's not going to be proved better.
if i have been reading this post correctly, which im 98% sure i got everything correct, we need 5% hit to max specials because of nerve of cold steel, and then 26 expertise (6.50% chance to not be dodged) for your max dps next, and then str and then spell hit cap? or is it spell hit and then str after that? do you gem straight exp/str, or should you try to gem for spell hit now with the new fixes to the sim?
Gemming for expertise seem to be worth it.
Spell hit is a bit of a preference call. Purely DPS wise, its probably less of a dps benefit than strength. But you'll make sure that your spells (IT/HB) wont miss.
I would pursuit the spell hitcap, but i personally would try not to gem for it too much. There should be plenty of hit from gear anyway, and I think some people are also overestimating the effect a bit. I'm personally going to try to cap spell hit, but I don't do that purely for convenience.
If you have 1% spell miss (so 1% chance to miss your spells) that means that on average you miss your icy touch once every 33.3 minutes of pure combat. If you consider that boss fights take about 5-6 minutes that means you'll miss your icy touch once every 5-6 bosses. Annoying when it happens, but highly overestimated. Howling Blast misses will be slightly more frequent, but again this is an inconvenience rather than a huge dps loss.
Because Blood Plague does higher damage as a DoT itself I believe.
I understand why it may seem like this, but the DoT's also benefit from Tundra Stalker, so putting FF first assures you always have TS for BLood Plague, even though you may not overlap FF for it to benefit from TS from the previous FF.
Is anyone able to evaluate the use of UA in real gaming terms? Namely, can it be used optimally in real situations?
At the moment thinking of it theoretically: I notice on the simulator about 100 DPS increase if I take away 1 point from BCB and give it to it. However, I loosely estimate that that increase may be about half or less if I consider the numerous situations I will not be able to use the CD optimally. The further utility advantage of not having to think of an extra CD in the first place makes me wonder if it's worth taking it.
PS. It may be not enough to consider it only 'for a burn phase' since that would make its DPS increase considerably lower in simulation scenarios that restrict it to e.g. 'when boss is at 30% or below only' or 'when boss is at phase 2 only'.
Is anyone able to evaluate the use of UA in real gaming terms? Namely, can it be used optimally in real situations?
At the moment thinking of it theoretically: I notice on the simulator about 100 DPS increase if I take away 1 point from BCB and give it to it. However, I loosely estimate that that increase may be about half or less if I consider the numerous situations I will not be able to use the CD optimally. The further utility advantage of not having to think of an extra CD in the first place makes me wonder if it's worth taking it.
PS. It may be not enough to consider it only 'for a burn phase' since that would make its DPS increase considerably lower in simulation scenarios that restrict it to e.g. 'when boss is at 30% or below only' or 'when boss is at phase 2 only'.
I think simulator uses that Blood Tap way to use UA so the rune cycle remains the same, and you can try remove 1 point on KM instead BCB.
Im also very interested how this works with Nerves of Cold Steel? Does 5% melee cap equals to Ghoul being hit capped or not? I think it does not which also increases value of hit beyond 5%.
Since Nerves of cold steel only gives melee hit (nor will the 3% spell hit talent), this will not affect the ghoul. Only true hit rating and someway the space goat aura will give the ghoul hit.
However, I don't know if the ghoul would double dip on the space goat aura (like if you had 6% hit on gear + aura = 7% hit, would the ghoul get that 7% + another 1% from aura?). I am guessing not, but I don't have access to the aura.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Spell hit is a bit of a preference call. Purely DPS wise, its probably less of a dps benefit than strength. But you'll make sure that your spells (IT/HB) wont miss.
I would pursuit the spell hitcap, but i personally would try not to gem for it too much. There should be plenty of hit from gear anyway, and I think some people are also overestimating the effect a bit. I'm personally going to try to cap spell hit, but I don't do that purely for convenience.
If you have 1% spell miss (so 1% chance to miss your spells) that means that on average you miss your icy touch once every 33.3 minutes of pure combat. If you consider that boss fights take about 5-6 minutes that means you'll miss your icy touch once every 5-6 bosses. Annoying when it happens, but highly overestimated. Howling Blast misses will be slightly more frequent, but again this is an inconvenience rather than a huge dps loss.
Pestilenc is also affected by spellhit and not by meleehit which I already stated earlier. There's a huge difference between a HB/IT miss and a miss with pestilence in a already tight rotation: It usually means, that your diseases run off and need to be reapplied twice (first time and a little time later with proccs and TS).
This, of course, only affects GoDisease-speccs. The question is now whether the sims takes this into account. It might be the reason for such a high value for spellhit.
This, of course, only affects GoDisease-speccs. The question is now whether the sims takes this into account. It might be the reason for such a high value for spellhit.
A situation like this could prove devastating because while having to reapply diseases isn't a huge dps loss in and of itself, losing diseases that you've been rolling with all your procs (the whole reason why GoDisease works) could result in a giant DPS loss, especially on fights like Hodir HM.
I think hitting the spell hit cap in a GoDisease spec should be highly prioritized.
A nice side effect of aiming for spell hit cap is that it also improves melee hit as well, increasing the contribution of white hits, Necrosis, and Blood-Caked Blade which promotes a nice synergy when gearing. Peace of mind in a rotation and increased effectiveness of some of the best scaling talents when dual-wielding is not a bad place to be.
Since Nerves of cold steel only gives melee hit (nor will the 3% spell hit talent), this will not affect the ghoul. Only true hit rating and someway the space goat aura will give the ghoul hit.
However, I don't know if the ghoul would double dip on the space goat aura (like if you had 6% hit on gear + aura = 7% hit, would the ghoul get that 7% + another 1% from aura?). I am guessing not, but I don't have access to the aura.
Is there any parsing data on this? I haven't been able to find any clarifying if DK ghoul is based off our melee hit, spell hit, or untalented hit rating.
I been toying around with buying/selling sigil of virulence for a bit now, and I have been getting a sizable dps difference consistently around 400-500. Yes this is on dummies, but it still remains valid from the stand point of that the only variable in the tests I have done is the sigil, rendering the dummy argument worthless. From this, I got curious and did a little math to see how this would add up.
You get 200 strength from SoV:
200 * 1.03 * 1.1 * 1.09 = 247 str (Ravenous Dead, BoK, FC with 60% uptime)
247 * 2 * 1.1 = 543 ap
Assuming you have 33% OB dmg (personally I have closer to 40%), then you can multiply the ap by 3 to convert (roughly) the total ap gain into just OB dmg gain.
543 * 3 = 1629 ap
Convert that into weapon dmg:
1629 / 14 * 2.4 = 279 weapon dmg
Since OB does 80% weapon dmg, we can downsize that:
279 * 0.8 = 223
223 Dmg to obliterate prebuffs, disease bonuses, and glyphs.
To me, 336 >>> 223, making SoA better.
Yes OB doesn't scale the same as FS, BS, etc, but they scale similar enough that these two don't even seem to compare. Also, I could have easily missed something, so please feel free to point it out.
Analysis and math done earlier indicates that SoA will likely be better for fights that are primarily single target (XT, Vezax, etc) while SoV will benefit more in fights that are multi-target (Freya, Mimiron, etc). It it highly likely that in the case of encounters that feature AoE phases (Mimiron, Freya, Thorim etc), we'll see the rise of sigil-swapping macros for use in between phases to fully maximize the strength of a DW DK's arsenal.
That has already been posted extensively in the last few pages though.
The only difference is that you use 2x BS in the middle of your rotation and the other posts (including mine) had them at the end.
The story remain the same though. The best way to use your UA is right before you use your blood or death runes.
I personally currently have cancelaura bound to blood strike, but i doubt that's the best way to use it. Might be better to just make a seperate cancelaura button. Or just change my macro around a bit.
Pestilenc is also affected by spellhit and not by meleehit which I already stated earlier. There's a huge difference between a HB/IT miss and a miss with pestilence in a already tight rotation: It usually means, that your diseases run off and need to be reapplied twice (first time and a little time later with proccs and TS).
This, of course, only affects GoDisease-speccs. The question is now whether the sims takes this into account. It might be the reason for such a high value for spellhit.
When I ran EP calculation, my spec wasnt GoDisease.
Please go the damage by spell tab. This is a parse from Vezax, where I was trying to test to see hit/miss percentages for DW. I know that the current method of thought is to get 6.5% expertise coupled with 9% hit on the character screen.
17.5% miss rate seems high to me once you factor in 1% hit aura and anything else which helps. From a rough estimation, I see it as a loss of 51,913 damage over 270s = 192.27 DPS. Now this seems more significant since this would be passive damage lost, which is obviously 'free'.
I do realize that the spec I am using as a frost test spec may not be ideal for overall damage done, but I am looking at this specific factor of the loss from autoatacks. I would assume, maybe incorrectly, that this would also permeate to a loss from necrosis hits (since the autoattack did not land) and BCB for the same reason. I am curious, and cannot figure out how to numerically rationalize the overarching loss by this 17.5% miss rate. I am also curious if this is why some, like myself when I tried it, experience sub 1% gains for necrosis and BCB when specced into them.
*NOTE: I was using SoVH, I am going to test this week with SoA due to it's diminished effect with FS vs. OB usage.
I realize that some gems are not 'maxed'. I realize that a single disease spec is not 'ideal'. None of these things are what I wish to discuss. If the guru's here could analyze the DPS loss vs. other gems DPS gains, and the loss of damage through Necrosis and BCB if specced that way I think we may be able to find that stat weights may change with an unholy subspec.
General Vezax is not a non-gimmick encounter and a really bad encounter to talk about Necrosis/BCB-damage on: Aura of Despair
You are right, I had a complete brainfart about this mechanic. I was suggesting the lack of a gimmick based on the fact of a stationary fight without modifications such as found on Freya (AoE) and Hodir (Dmg buffs).
Still, the suggestion of additional loss to BcB and Necrosis stands when analyzing missrates due to DW when using an unholy subspec, and the possibility of the talents slipping further down in output.
Please go the damage by spell tab. This is a parse from Vezax, where I was trying to test to see hit/miss percentages for DW. I know that the current method of thought is to get 6.5% expertise coupled with 9% hit on the character screen.
17.5% miss rate seems high to me once you factor in 1% hit aura and anything else which helps. From a rough estimation, I see it as a loss of 51,913 damage over 270s = 192.27 DPS. Now this seems more significant since this would be passive damage lost, which is obviously 'free'.
17.5% miss rate you quoted includes dodges (3) and parries (1). Your armory shows 25 expertise rather than 26, which would explain why you were seeing dodges. Without dodge/parry the percent of actual misses is 16.0%. This is still (significantly?) above the expected miss rate of 11% (24% base - 3% NoCS - 9% from hit rating - 1% space-goat aura). The 5% difference is equivalent to 13 extra misses, but I don't know enough math to say if this is reasonable for a bad RNG streak. An alternative is that the NoCS is not applied to white melee swings, which I find hard to believe, but would reduce the 5% difference to 2%. If your draeni was not in your group for that fight or was out of range, the discrepancy is smaller and probably well within the realm of RNG.
Capping dual-wield hit would not be "free" damage because the stat points for hit would reduce the stat points available for other stats. According to the stat weights in the OP, before spell hit cap is reached, hit rating is worse than everything except Agility, and I can't imagine that it would get any better after spell hit cap.
Having said that, if NoCS is bugged and doesn't apply to white swings, then the simulations that generate EP weights are off - this would probably lower the value of BCB and Necrosis, but would probably not make hit rating better.
Last edited by Rurahk : 08/18/09 at 2:35 PM.
Reason: Grammar
08/16/09, 8:16 PM
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