Unless I'm mistaking, base miss rate is 27%. Often people use the 24% white miss rate for DW Dk's specifically because NoCS reduces the requirement to 24%. Either way, hit above the spell cap isn't worth stacking, its fine to get extra if you can't avoid it, but it isn't worth losing any quality stat for.
Having said that, if NoCS is bugged and doesn't apply to white swings, then the simulations that generate EP weights are off - this would probably lower the value of BCB and Necrosis, but would probably not make hit rating better.
It should be fairly easy to check if NoCS is bugged or not, simply by looking at previous DPS logs and comparing the miss rate to what should be expected with the equipped hit rating and raid buffs.
Unless I'm mistaking, base miss rate is 27%. Often people use the 24% white miss rate for DW Dk's specifically because NoCS reduces the requirement to 24%. Either way, hit above the spell cap isn't worth stacking, its fine to get extra if you can't avoid it, but it isn't worth losing any quality stat for.
You are correct, although I had looked up vs a level 80 mob by mistake. So, Antimortem's numbers are now within 2% of expected miss rate, which I will assume is reasonable for RNG. I had no basis other than those numbers for speculating a bug, so I believe it is safe to assume that Nerves of Cold Steel is working as intended.
I would like someone if they could to run a frost/blood DW spec 15/53/3 on a raid boss like Ignis and tell me why again this spec wont work. The numbers ive gotten have did much better. Ive read on these forums for ages but as you guys say numbers don't lie and Ive been getting good results with this spec. Currently both of my specs are DW and im trying to choose between them both (the other being 03/53/15). We have been cranking on the new CC25 instance and before we start Heroic 25CC I would like to have an idea on which direction to take.
For my first 25 badges I bought the new Sigil SoV. Are we sure that we are not missing ANYTHING that might make the 18/53/3 spec better?
1. I know that Bladed Armor scales slightly
2. I know that Dark Conviction is a good 5 percent crit but is that better than the scaling with BCB and Necrosis?
3. You get less time on your diseases but with Armor Pen Oblits should still hit fairly hard.
It would be a huge help if someone would test this in a live environment besides me so I can see what your results are. Also armory me and if there is something I could do different I would love to hear it.
I would like someone if they could to run a frost/blood DW spec 15/53/3 on a raid boss like Ignis and tell me why again this spec wont work. The numbers ive gotten have did much better. Ive read on these forums for ages but as you guys say numbers don't lie and Ive been getting good results with this spec. Currently both of my specs are DW and im trying to choose between them both (the other being 03/53/15). We have been cranking on the new CC25 instance and before we start Heroic 25CC I would like to have an idea on which direction to take.
For my first 25 badges I bought the new Sigil SoV. Are we sure that we are not missing ANYTHING that might make the 18/53/3 spec better?
1. I know that Bladed Armor scales slightly
2. I know that Dark Conviction is a good 5 percent crit but is that better than the scaling with BCB and Necrosis?
3. You get less time on your diseases but with Armor Pen Oblits should still hit fairly hard.
It would be a huge help if someone would test this in a live environment besides me so I can see what your results are. Also armory me and if there is something I could do different I would love to hear it.
As always thanks for the help
Shadow
Since your deseases last less time you have 2 options, reapply or just ignore and make abilities without deseases. Any of this options is a dps loss because of Tundra Stalker and IT and PS are by there own dps loss.
All this associated to the fact that Necrosis and BCB scale very well in this spec.
It would be a huge help if someone would test this in a live environment besides me so I can see what your results are. Also armory me and if there is something I could do different I would love to hear it.
2/3 Virulence because I'm way over the hitcap, due to 2h frost gear and the lower hitcap with DW (NoCS).
I've been playing around with CotG but ended with 2/2 because there is nothing besides Deathchill (and Icy Reach) that improves DPS. Maybe 1/2 CotG and 1/1 Deathchill would be better, have to continue the tests.
I switched to the blood sub specc before Vezax, so i only have a Vezax and Yoggi parse (yeah.. not the best encounters to test, i know :/). But the new ID starts today and i will try and update my experiences.
PS: I'm also trying to figure out if the blood sub specc should prioritize Frost Fever > Rime > Obliterate or Frost Fever > Obliterate > Rime. And Rime should be used when Frost Fever is still active as a higher priority, right?
So, i've been thinking about it alot, and i remember Darkside mentioning it once or twice but i never really saw any theory crafting on the subject to determine that its a better/worse idea then the current Blood Pres 0/53/18 w/ Rime+KM Priority.
Have we determined that playing in UH Presence while using a KM + FS Priority rotation was now not a viable way to go? With either Vengefull heart sigil / Virulence.
Kologarn: HARD MODE?
Yogg-Saron: Can you, like, buff yourself to do double damage, or have twice as much health or something?
Kologarn: I AM VERY LARGE.
2/3 Virulence because I'm way over the hitcap, due to 2h frost gear and the lower hitcap with DW (NoCS).
I've been playing around with CotG but ended with 2/2 because there is nothing besides Deathchill (and Icy Reach) that improves DPS. Maybe 1/2 CotG and 1/1 Deathchill would be better, have to continue the tests.
I switched to the blood sub specc before Vezax, so i only have a Vezax and Yoggi parse (yeah.. not the best encounters to test, i know :/). But the new ID starts today and i will try and update my experiences.
PS: I'm also trying to figure out if the blood sub specc should prioritize Frost Fever > Rime > Obliterate or Frost Fever > Obliterate > Rime. And Rime should be used when Frost Fever is still active as a higher priority, right?
"2/3 Virulence because I'm way over the hitcap, due to 2h frost gear and the lower hitcap with DW (NoCS)"
Confused me, one of those talents is exclusively Melee Hit and the other Spell, both of which have totally different values for DW Frost. Plenty of DW Frost variants don't use nearly as many GCD's on spells which is why some players have been choosing to run with lower Melee hit rating caps(Closer to 5%) due to the contribution of NoCS to char Melee hit rating caps. Virulence is not contributing to anything other than your Spell Hit, tying it(hit rating adjustments) to putting points into NoCS doesn't make sense to me.
Why would your priorities change with a Blood Sub-spec versus a Unholy Sub-spec? The core mechanics of either variation do not change at all.
NoCS pushed me to 329 hit rating, and my Spellhit displays as ~329, too. (maybe this is a bug? virulence doesnt change my Spell hit Value on the char sheet)
I need the spell hit cap (found out in this thread that it's 289 with 3/3 Virulence) either with GoHB (<- my case. To not miss any Rime Procc and losing my Frost Fever) or with GoD (<- Unholy Sub Spec. To not miss Pestilence and drop both diseases).
329 - 289 = 40 (-> 40 hit rating over the "spell hitcap with 3/3 Virulence") Now I dropped one point from Virulence and theoretically lost ~32hit rating, which finally should put me to 297 (8 points above the cap)
I'm not totally sure if this is right but i think so.
Let me know if i got you wrong, or if I made a mistake.
Alesna
Edit: The core mechanics change with GoHB. It's not a completely different rotation but it is. UH sub speccs don't need to refresh FF with HB and uses it only in combination with KM, don't they? Dunno if this affects the priorities. (That's why I'm asking :p)
Im just curious as to if anyone has tested out a DW blood build. Just a random thought, and probably a dumb one, but it could be similiar to the IT spam spec where you would spam HS instead of IT. HS still hits and crits for a pretty high amount with this spec. It also provides 10% arp within the spec, arp being a good stat, and Im unsure as to the mechanics of DRW but if it goes off each attack you do. That would seem like a fairly significant amount of burst damage, enough to add significantly to your dps. The spec I had in mind would look something like this.
This spec obv loses a ton of hit rating by not spec'ing into the hit talents, but you gain exp from the blood talents to make up for it.
Just a random thought. Im a blood tank and thought Id throw on DW gear and see what happened so it sparked some curiosity. Someone feel free to run the numbers/bash it if its horrid
I'll be updating the statweights on the mainpage on Monday, once I'm back in town from Blizzcon. Spellhit has gone up due to correcting the bug in the simulator, and kahorie has been calculating the value of most of the "proc" trinkets as well. The only real thing that is missing is a solid calculation for hit's value after the spell cap. Obviously its not something worth stacking, but finding the exact value will help people when evaluating trinkets and gear. (IE If you are hit capped via gear, is blood of the old god still worth using.)
@ Blood subspec:
People are once again bringing up the blood subspec, I would like to respectfully ask anyone promoting it to show some solid parse data, or math to back up your claims. We have discussed this matter at length in the early part of this thread, and it was crystal clear that the unholy subspec is flat out superior. (Except for BcB vs Sub for threat reasons) If you want to run a blood subspec, fine, but realize that this is a place to discuss min maxing for endgame. We can't devote energy to working on an idea that is mathematically inferior.
I would like someone if they could to run a frost/blood DW spec 15/53/3 on a raid boss like Ignis and tell me why again this spec wont work. The numbers ive gotten have did much better. Ive read on these forums for ages but as you guys say numbers don't lie and Ive been getting good results with this spec. Currently both of my specs are DW and im trying to choose between them both (the other being 03/53/15). We have been cranking on the new CC25 instance and before we start Heroic 25CC I would like to have an idea on which direction to take.
For my first 25 badges I bought the new Sigil SoV. Are we sure that we are not missing ANYTHING that might make the 18/53/3 spec better?
1. I know that Bladed Armor scales slightly
2. I know that Dark Conviction is a good 5 percent crit but is that better than the scaling with BCB and Necrosis?
3. You get less time on your diseases but with Armor Pen Oblits should still hit fairly hard.
It would be a huge help if someone would test this in a live environment besides me so I can see what your results are. Also armory me and if there is something I could do different I would love to hear it.
As always thanks for the help
Shadow
Last night we did CC25, and we have a dw frost dk in our guild running 14/54/3 The World of Warcraft Armory - Dreadpirate
He keeps gemming armor pen, and uses a weaker MH... I don't know what his deal is. Super stubborn, won't listen to me.
ANYWAY... he definitely keeps up with me in dps, and sometimes beats me, partially because he has better gear i'm sure, but the biggest strength of the Blood subspec is it's burstiness. He uses single disease HB rotation (judging by his glyphs and recount from last night).
So... for fights in which you're constantly changing targets (adds - such as jarraxxus or phase 1 of beasts), dps is interrupted, or there are adds (ignis), 10+/51+/3+ is competitive, and may actually pull ahead in certain fights. For single target sustained dps, however... x/51+/15+ still seems to be king. You can't ignore the buffed diseases. And everybody better get used to a 2 disease rotation if they're planning on picking up t9.
At the risk of being laughed out of this forum, last night I discovered that some of our trained skills were reset to rank 1 in 3.2. Namely the trained abilities Frost Strike, Howling Blast, and Heart Strike. Hopefully I'm the only idiot who didn't thoroughly read the patch notes or check my trained skills when respeccing after 3.2. If you haven't checked your ability ranks yet, you should.
At the risk of being laughed out of this forum, last night I discovered that some of our trained skills were reset to rank 1 in 3.2. Namely the trained abilities Frost Strike, Howling Blast, and Heart Strike. Hopefully I'm the only idiot who didn't thoroughly read the patch notes or check my trained skills when respeccing after 3.2. If you haven't checked your ability ranks yet, you should.
I noticed that I had to retrain a lower rank of Horn of Winter, but I still retained my highest rank.
At the risk of being laughed out of this forum, last night I discovered that some of our trained skills were reset to rank 1 in 3.2. Namely the trained abilities Frost Strike, Howling Blast, and Heart Strike. Hopefully I'm the only idiot who didn't thoroughly read the patch notes or check my trained skills when respeccing after 3.2. If you haven't checked your ability ranks yet, you should.
I never notice when this is done. I'll back you up and say that you're not the only idiot. Luckily I haven't been running very many raids just yet.
I've seen people talking about how they were doing 7k dps as dc spam unholy dw and much more with burst. But literally 99% of this thread consists about frost dw. Personally, when I tried unholy dw it wasn't so great.
Why is it that unholy dw isn't so popular? And if anyone does run unholy dw, can you post some parses?
At the risk of being laughed out of this forum, last night I discovered that some of our trained skills were reset to rank 1 in 3.2. Namely the trained abilities Frost Strike, Howling Blast, and Heart Strike. Hopefully I'm the only idiot who didn't thoroughly read the patch notes or check my trained skills when respeccing after 3.2. If you haven't checked your ability ranks yet, you should.
You never trained them in the first place. Only a lower rank of HoW was available to train and that was available before 3.2 came out. Nothing else changed or was added to the trainer.
NoCS pushed me to 329 hit rating, and my Spellhit displays as ~329, too. (maybe this is a bug? virulence doesnt change my Spell hit Value on the char sheet)
Hit talents of no class or spec, be they melee or spell, have any affect whatsoever upon your hit rating.
Hit from talents is not displayed upon your character sheet at all, this includes NoCS and Virulence.
Originally Posted by Stealthah
Im just curious as to if anyone has tested out a DW blood build. Just a random thought, and probably a dumb one, but it could be similiar to the IT spam spec where you would spam HS instead of IT. HS still hits and crits for a pretty high amount with this spec. It also provides 10% arp within the spec, arp being a good stat, and Im unsure as to the mechanics of DRW but if it goes off each attack you do. That would seem like a fairly significant amount of burst damage, enough to add significantly to your dps. The spec I had in mind would look something like this.
This spec obv loses a ton of hit rating by not spec'ing into the hit talents, but you gain exp from the blood talents to make up for it.
Just a random thought. Im a blood tank and thought Id throw on DW gear and see what happened so it sparked some curiosity. Someone feel free to run the numbers/bash it if its horrid
Doesn't work due to Blood relying on weapon damage based abilities and not benefitting from Threat of Thassarian like Frost nor having a bunch of non weapon damage based abilities like Unholy.
I've seen people talking about how they were doing 7k dps as dc spam unholy dw and much more with burst. But literally 99% of this thread consists about frost dw. Personally, when I tried unholy dw it wasn't so great.
Why is it that unholy dw isn't so popular? And if anyone does run unholy dw, can you post some parses?
There are two reasons we see more discussion about Frost DW. First, it is the new spec, everyone always wants to test the new talents we get. Second, there is a segment of the DK population that still doubts that any spec not using ToT can be effective. Considering the unholy DW builds are basically unchanged from Pre 3.2, many folks just don't understand how they can do competitive dps.
I posted some parses a few pages back, one of phase 2 thorim and one of burst dps on steelbreaker hardmode. This wasn't any attempt to blow the wad on dps, just random parses. I'm sure there are many others who have done higher dps than myself with the same build: http://www.elitistjerks.com/f72/t648...0/#post1342229
Like many others, I'm currently testing frost, but from the looks of things I'm going to be going back to 0/17/54 DC spam next week. Both seem to be on par with eachother during patchwerk like fights, but unholy gains a huge advantage during movement. Also, Ebon plaguebringer is simply more valuable to my raid.
There is one thing why i dont like the unholy-dw-specc: your ghul does not scale with all your stats and if there are some raids buffs (like hodir crit buff) your ghul does not scale with it too.
but this don't mean that unholy-dw isnt on par with frost-dw.
5% minimum, but testing currently seems to be leaning towards you wanting 14%(13% alliance w/ a draenei aura) spellhit after talents, due to GCDs being in short supply for DW Frost.
08/18/09, 5:00 PM
Alesna
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