DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand - Page 58

Krevak · 08/05/09, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by Odii

Actually, what I mean is that your F rune will fire off before you U rune, and will therefore refresh 1.5 seconds earlier. If you are carrying over a death rune from the previous rotation, then you will have a F and a D rune up at the same time, 1.5 seconds before the paired U rune comes up. If you Obliterate during this time, you will have sudenly have an orphan U rune. Now you can PS right after in the FS slot, and then repair things by using the FS on the back end, but the notion of having the possibility of that F+D Obliterate is a bit messy.

As long as the U and F rune are first started off together, you never have to worry about using that Death rune early.

My comments were specifically about the HB rotation, which is substantially different then the others.

The worst situation you'll get with what you're describing is that you will have a rune rotation that goes from UF/UF/DD to UD/FD/UF. If it bothers you enough then you pause slightly to let the U refresh. If you've got only one death rune carrying over from a previous rotation then you've probably botched something and have a bigger problem anyway. Unless I've missed your point entirely which could be.

Grimm · 08/05/09, 2:32 PM

Originally Posted by Odii

If you are carrying over a death rune from the previous rotation, then you will have a F and a D rune up at the same time, 1.5 seconds before the paired U rune comes up. If you Obliterate during this time, you will have sudenly have an orphan U rune.

Unless I have missed something, why would you ever "carry over" a death rune?

(TIME-RP AVAILABLE)

I *think* this is the correct RP gen values
PS: +10RP
IT: +25RP (Glyph + CotG)
OB: +20RP (CotG)
BS: +10RP

PS(0-10)->IT(1.7-35)->OB(3.4-55)->BS(5.1-60)->BS(6.8-70)->FS(8.5-38)->FS(10.2-6) [Frost Rune comes up @ 10.0 but we're saving it]

OB(11.9-26)->OB(13.6-46)->[waiting for 2nd death rune]FS(15.3-14)->OB(17-34)->FS(18.7-2)->?(20.4-2)

22.1 Both F & U runes come up(@21.9), time to refresh diseases again (back to set 1)

The trick is to not get antsy and use the F rune that comes up at 10.0 before the U rune comes up at 11.7, then again don't blow the D rune that comes up at 15.1 until the 2nd one comes up at 16.8 so you can get the OBx3 in the 2nd set. In most cases you are going to also get a Rime + KM proc in there somewhere so that empty GCD @ 20.4 should be filled with HB, also many times you will be carrying some RP into the fight so you may have the rp available to toss another FS if you didn't get a Rime + KM proc.

Myrx · 08/05/09, 2:34 PM

The only thing I am unclear about is do you use your Freezing Fog/Killing Machine on the next GCD after you get it, or do you hold it and use it as your first ability during the dump stage of your rotation. Currently I am holding it until my dump, but I'm wondering if it isn't better to use it as soon as you can.

OMFGJ00SUCKN00B · 08/05/09, 3:04 PM

Originally Posted by Myrx

The only thing I am unclear about is do you use your Freezing Fog/Killing Machine on the next GCD after you get it, or do you hold it and use it as your first ability during the dump stage of your rotation. Currently I am holding it until my dump, but I'm wondering if it isn't better to use it as soon as you can.

Rime procs are best coupled with Killing Machine, but don't restrict yourself to that alone; if you're about to do 3 Obliterates in a row, I'd use the free HB in case Rime procs again.

Fargom · 08/05/09, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by Jawa

I am having an issue with the 0/17/54 build regarding runic power generation. I have the correct glyph's and spec, but during the second part of the "rotation" I cant seem to generate enough RP for a second death coil, what am I missing?

I should probably clarify the OP, this problem is a result in a disagreement between simulator and reality.

Kithus has shown on the simulator that Dirge should be dropped for max DPS. If you are not using maxed Dirge, you should probably follow the priority. Not having actual math to disprove Kithus's simulator results, I went ahead and changed the OP build.

The rotation is what I myself use, and I've found that it is higher dps for myself than trying to follow the priority system. Perhaps its just the fact that a rotation is mindless, and easy to follow during fights, but whatever it is I always end up with higher dps using the listed rotation. Without the extra RP from plague strike, you can't fit in as many DC's. This is just one of those times when the simulator can't take into account that sometimes an easier rotation to follow will out dps the mathematical superior proirity.

Kithus · 08/05/09, 4:27 PM

Dropping 3/3 WP in favor of 2/2 Dirge and the fifth point in Desolation results in roughly a 60 DPS loss. That said with 2pcT8 the difference is probably less and with 4pcT9 it is likely more. If you are more comfortable using a set rotation than the priority it might work better for you. Overall neither is "wrong" and you should go with what works better for you.

Keiren · 08/05/09, 4:29 PM

Originally Posted by Astalion

Edit: I'm getting a slight dps loss, and I think I know where your math went wrong: you assumed that the other case would use IT to refresh, while it would in fact also use a HB if Rime had procced.

Don't you actually lose a considerable amount of RP for edging out IT like that? Rime+OB is still 25, just like IT+PS, but Rime+PS is only 15...

Also, the thought of juggling 1 and 2 disease rotations which both generate 125 RP / 20s and map to GCD slots fairly cleanly sounds a lot simpler than juggling "if RP<35 / if FF<10s / if BP < 10s" :p

So how slight a loss are we talking on the sim? And is that compared to the fairly complex rotation Odii posted? Depending on what the scale of that slight loss is, would it be worth consideration from the standpoint of reasonable execution?

Crax · 08/05/09, 6:00 PM

Originally Posted by Fargom

"SotVH applies 115% of its bonus to the OH. The full bonus is applied without being affected by the OH penalty, and then the 1.15 Nerves of Cold Steel multiplier is applied to it as well as the the offhand damage. This is unusual, since the sigil bonus damage is not affected by the OH penalty that NoCS lessens. In other words, the OH FS calculation is ((.55 * (weapon_base + AP / 14 * 2.4) + 138) * .5 + 113) * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.2 * 1.15. Another way of looking at it is that the sigil effectively adds 242.95 damage to FS before talents (~405 damage after talents). "

Our Sigils apply 100% of the bonus to the mainhand, and 115% of the bonus to the offhand. Nobody has disproven his post, so Its safe to assume it is still correct. Awareness looks better on the sims because the frost builds are now more OB focused instead of FS focused, not because of SOTVH.

This observed behavior is actually exactly the same as previously verified for Rogues with Mutilate and Dual Wield Spec: Their Off hand Mutilate strikes receive a higher bonus damage due to the way the Dual Wield bonus is multiplied in. Given that consistency of behavior, I expect this was fully intended and will remain this way.

Yubble · 08/05/09, 6:10 PM

Originally Posted by Fargom

Our Sigils apply 100% of the bonus to the mainhand, and 115% of the bonus to the offhand. Nobody has disproven his post, so Its safe to assume it is still correct. Awareness looks better on the sims because the frost builds are now more OB focused instead of FS focused, not because of SOTVH.

People, I beg you, read the thread before spreading information that is incorrect.

Fair enough - but what I meant, and should have said, is that SotVH is quite a bit less dps than SoA given the current builds and rotations. Perhaps "worthless" was an exaggeration.

For 3.2 frost strike centered builds, of which I know none, SotVH will still be the sigil of choice.

For current known 3.2 builds, SoA is the better option.

Is that better?

Ash*** · 08/05/09, 6:14 PM

Regarding the Unholy Presence vs. Blood Presence question:

I was able to test out the 0/53/18 DW build in a live raid for the first time this morning. I found myself constantly capping out RP generation while using BP and the standard rotation given. I doubt that this is somehow a unique situation to my raid comp, as there aren't exactly a lot of raid buffs that provide RP gen.

Switching to UP actually seemed to be an increase in performance, allowing me time to use all the resources coming in. This may just be related to my inexperience with the new build, and/or lag issues with the server, but I believe the value in UP vs. BP may not be as clear cut as we have dealt with in previous patches.

I'm considering the possibility that perhaps replacing the icy touch glyph with the blood strike glyph in this build would allow for better resource management while in BP. Further testing is needed.

Yubble · 08/05/09, 6:22 PM

Originally Posted by Ash***

Regarding the Unholy Presence vs. Blood Presence question:

I was able to test out the 0/53/18 DW build in a live raid for the first time this morning. I found myself constantly capping out RP generation while using BP and the standard rotation given. I doubt that this is somehow a unique situation to my raid comp, as there aren't exactly a lot of raid buffs that provide RP gen.

Switching to UP actually seemed to be an increase in performance, allowing me time to use all the resources coming in. This may just be related to my inexperience with the new build, and/or lag issues with the server, but I believe the value in UP vs. BP may not be as clear cut as we have dealt with in previous patches.

I'm considering the possibility that perhaps replacing the icy touch glyph with the blood strike glyph in this build would allow for better resource management while in BP. Further testing is needed.

yesterday I faced this situation as well - overflowing with RP. I'm not sure the IT glyph is the problem as it only provides (or should only provide) 10 rp extra per 20 sec. However, it definitely seems to be pretty useless in BP, but switching to UP didn't net me more dps - probably because i have trouble keeping up in UP. I'm definitely curious as to BS glyph's benefit, but wouldn't that mean swapping scarce talent points in order to get a simple snare?

Aezoc · 08/05/09, 6:38 PM

You will only benefit from the glyph of BS on a boss if you have a feral druid with infected wounds or a FFB mage, so I'm not sure where the idea of swapping talent points for a snare comes in. That's well-documented earlier in this thread. If you have one of those, then that's clearly your best third glyph. Otherwise, I think it's between PS and Ghoul, and I'm not sure anyone has simmed the difference.

Ash*** · 08/05/09, 6:45 PM

Originally Posted by Yubble

yesterday I faced this situation as well - overflowing with RP. I'm not sure the IT glyph is the problem as it only provides (or should only provide) 10 rp extra per 20 sec. However, it definitely seems to be pretty useless in BP, but switching to UP didn't net me more dps - probably because i have trouble keeping up in UP. I'm definitely curious as to BS glyph's benefit, but wouldn't that mean swapping scarce talent points in order to get a simple snare?

The GCD haste in UP does make for a much faster paced rotation to keep up with it. I found I was still dealing with little to no dead-time in UP (the occasional dead-space often left just enough time for a horn of winter), which is why I think I was seeing an increase in performance.

If I'm understanding correctly, there are certain standard raid debuffs that will count as a snare for the purposes of the Blood Strike glyph.

What I am looking to do is find a way to reduce RP generation just enough (and use that potential elsewhere) so that I can keep up with all the resource generation while in Blood Presence.

I can't log-in just now to test any of this, but if anyone else has any data for this issue I will be looking into it later this evening when I have a chance.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Aezoc

You will only benefit from the glyph of BS on a boss if you have a feral druid with infected wounds or a FFB mage, so I'm not sure where the idea of swapping talent points for a snare comes in. That's well-documented earlier in this thread. If you have one of those, then that's clearly your best third glyph. Otherwise, I think it's between PS and Ghoul, and I'm not sure anyone has simmed the difference.

That's what I was thinking of. Infected Wounds in my raid comp with the Blood Strike glyph is what I am looking at doing.

Odii · 08/05/09, 6:45 PM

@Grimmu: Read the discussions about using the Glyph of Howling Blast to replace ITs, without costing you Obliterates.

@Kevak: Replace those Ds with Bs and you see why its a very big deal.

The whole point of why Im having this discussion isnt just to max DPS, but to also keep the rotation as simple and easy as possible, so you can spend more time worrying about the fight and less worrying about using your abilities in an efficient manner. But Im feeling increasingly confident that using HB in conjunction with a single death rune has a dps advantage anyways, primarily because it is the most efficient use of GCDs. The instances where you should be entering/re-entering combat should be infrequent enough that Blood Tap should work well to make up for those instances you have 2 blood runes.

Xai · 08/05/09, 6:52 PM

I know I'm just missing it here somewhere, but could someone point me to the page where single disease frost rotations are discussed for in regards to dual wield applications?