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Old 08/06/09, 8:48 AM   #901
phantazum
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Death Knight
 
Thaurissan
Originally Posted by Christoff View Post
I had exactly the same thoughts. Even thouth, I'm a casual player and can't produce any reliable statistics.

Also I use a bit different spec: I took Subversion 3/3 instead of BCB 3/3. That threat reduction is very handy since most of our tanks are not superior with agro building (they don't read it, right? :-p ). And I wonder how much dps do I lose by ignoring 3/3 BCB but getting +9% OB crit chance?
The only time i have excess rune power is when im not preforming my rotation correctly. This happens in certain fights where i have to switch targets a lot or have to run across the room to get to the mob again. However this also lets me blow a whole bar of rune power on a mob with out wasting time putting up diseases. So i dont see any problem here.

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Old 08/06/09, 8:48 AM   #902
Sakuratei
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Rogue
 
Frostmane (EU)
The only time I have problems with RP swamping is if I get a lot of KMRimes in a short period of time. Although, RP swamp isn't necessarily a super bad thing, it lets us interrupt and use defensive CD's like AMS or IBF without blowing the rotation.

If it really bothers you that much, I guess you could put FS above BS in priority.

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Old 08/06/09, 8:51 AM   #903
Shareth
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
Concerning RP dumps, I had a similar problem yesterday in Ulduar/new boss. While back in pre-3.2 as Unholy-2H I often had times when I did nothing (read not enough RP), now its a blessing if I'm lower than, say, 80 RP. And I doubt its latency related since I have a pretty realiable 20-70ms.

So considering the problem is widespread, should we waste RP due to cap as suggested in priorities used in this thread or should we follow Unholy-2H rule of 'dump if gonna hit the cap'? And if the 'waste RP' is chosen, may be we should change some glyphs like IT glyph?

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Old 08/06/09, 9:02 AM   #904
Ebonplague
Glass Joe
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Durotan (EU)
Originally Posted by Darkside View Post
From my experiences tonight, this is not true. KM'd Frost Strikes hit significantly harder than KM'd Howling Blast; the only exception to this is, of course, when there is more than one target. You can check out my parses for Freya+3 for evidence of this: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis.
That might be true, but HB crits are based on spell crit chance, aren't they? So usually, the chance that FS will crit without KM is higher than it is for HB, so coupling HB with KM should lead to a dps increase on the long run.

Last edited by Ebonplague : 08/06/09 at 12:22 PM.

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Old 08/06/09, 9:19 AM   #905
DarkAngelus
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Drek'Thar (EU)
The "old" 1x/5x/3 DW with one disease and HB glyph can't compet anymore with a dual diseases spec ?

It was a subject few weeks ago and nothing new since then.

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Old 08/06/09, 10:18 AM   #906
Foxx2405
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Moonglade (EU)
And if the 'waste RP' is chosen, may be we should change some glyphs like IT glyph?
That might be your problem right there, stop using that glyph. Its not so good for this spec.

Overflowing on RP seems like an odd situation though. I mean basic math can be used on this.
Assuming you use the basic rotation:

IT>PS>OB>BS>BS
OB>OB>OB

The first 10 second you generate: 15+10+20+10+10 = 65 RP
That means you have RP for 2 frost strikes. Blood Presence has room for 6-7 GCD per 10 seconds. If you assume 6 then you take 33 RP to the next 10 seconds.

The next 10 seconds is 60 RP, with the 33 from last time thats 93 RP, which is just short of 3 FS.
The problem is mostly that people burn Rime procs without having KM up. That gives RP and loses you a GCD.
Thats probably a major reason why Rime is not used (much or at all) unless KM is also available.

Another way you can cap on RP is if you use AMS, but that's a different ballgame.

Also if you have trouble with your GCD and RP dumping, i suggest you move to a more smooth rotation.

IT>PS>OB>BS>BS
OB>OB>OB

^That is a very crude rotation actually for several reasons:
1. You have 5 "runic" GCD in the first part and 3 in the second.
2. You swap between single and double rune usage, and even though that is handled somewhat by rune cushioning it still means you sometimes have to wait a split second for a rune.
3. You have 1 obliterate in the first part and 3 in the second. Therefor your rime procs have a much higher chance to overlap in the second part. Not only that, in the first part you have a bigger chance of a KM proc without rime up, and in the second part a rime proc without KM up.
4. You have a lot of RP you have to tag along to the next 10 seconds because of limited GCD.

My suggestion is moving to the 4/4 rotation that simply goes like this:

OB>OB>BS>BS
OB>OB>IT>PS

Its very easy to start as well:

IT>PS>OB>BS>BS
OB>OB>PS>IT

Use those 2 first and then you can simply move into the 4/4 rotation. This was used back in the days as well by frost 2H builds. (before the IT spam builds became popular).

Of course the setup sequence is somewhat lower dps, so i would advice against it on bosses that are dynamic. But on tank spank fights, this should be somewhat better.

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Old 08/06/09, 10:31 AM   #907
Melchior
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Skywall
Thought I would toss up my WoL parse from last night:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

We only did up to the keepers, and the XT parse can be tossed out because he was still bugged so we had to sort of wing it on that fight (I got blown up pretty early on by one of the bomb swarms near XT).

After all of my testing, I decided to run 3/53/15. I ran in UP most of the night, partly because I never had the time to enchant my boots with Tuskarr's and partly because I am just more comfortable there.

I was using the standard dual disease rotation, IT/OB/FS glyphs.


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Old 08/06/09, 10:41 AM   #908
Shareth
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
I actually come to think that one of the reasons I have too much RP is because I was mostly judging by fights with strong raid damage, like XT earthquake and Hodir. If healers often put on you stuff that gives you RP when heals (Rejuvenation, right?) that might explain the problem.

Basically coming from Unholy-2H with 4xT8.5 where I had plenty of GCDs available it just might be that I find myself unprepared for the amount of RP I have in Frost-DW. I guess a couple of raids will 'fix' the problem.

On a sidenote, if ever change IT glyph, what to take instead of it? There arent many choices available - BS, PS and HB, but all are far from clear choices.

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Old 08/06/09, 11:24 AM   #909
Mcmick
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Doomhammer (EU)
Too me ToT seems to be bugged/delayed which completely fucks up the dps :/
atm i struggle to even hit 4k dps as DW frost but as blood i do 5-6k dps easily.
Am i the only one who thinks ToT is bugged?
also i see alot of different specs to go for and im in doubt which would be the better spec to go for?

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Old 08/06/09, 12:14 PM   #910
Nerub
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Azshara (EU)
Originally Posted by Mcmick View Post
Too me ToT seems to be bugged/delayed which completely fucks up the dps :/
atm i struggle to even hit 4k dps as DW frost but as blood i do 5-6k dps easily.
Am i the only one who thinks ToT is bugged?
also i see alot of different specs to go for and im in doubt which would be the better spec to go for?
There is a little delay between the mainhand and offhand hits of abilities. Easily testable when you kill some random lvl80 mob with ~10k HP, put two diseases on the target and hit OB. Most of the time the mob will die from just the mainhand damage, the offhand damage will not appaer on screen or in your combatlog. I doubt this is latency related (I always play with 60-100ms). It's fine though on targets with more HP/raid bosses, the delay won't matter there.

Last edited by Nerub : 08/06/09 at 12:39 PM.

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Old 08/06/09, 12:16 PM   #911
Aezoc
Piston Honda
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Scilla
Have there been any simulations of running deep frost with NotD instead of BCB and Glyph of the Ghoul as the 3rd glyph? I have trouble seeing it pull ahead of BCB, but stranger things have happened.

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Old 08/06/09, 12:19 PM   #912
Melchior
Piston Honda
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by Nerub View Post
There is a little delay between the mainhand and offhand hits of abilities. Easyliy testable when you kill some random lvl80 mob with ~10k HP, put two diseases on the target and hit OB. Most of the time the mob will die from just the mainhand damage, the offhand damage will not appaer on screen or in your combatlog. I doubt this is latency related (I always play with 60-100ms). It's fine though on targets with more HP/raid bosses, the delay won't matter there.
Yeah, the OH actually swings separately directly after each attack. You will see an animation for each strike.

I noticed that the Rime proc was actually *very* delayed sometimes. I don't know what causes this but there were times that I wouldn't receive Freezing Fog for up to 3 seconds after I hit OB. Makes it a little harder to hold KM procs for it.


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Old 08/06/09, 12:23 PM   #913
Yubble
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Bladefist
Sweberry's post that mentioned a burst phase using UA+blood fury+ghoul made me wonder about NotD.

Has anybody tried or calculated 51/20 using ghoul glyph and popping up the ghoul after popping UA? The ghoul would be on a 1.5 min CD instead of 3 minute, not to mention taking much less damage - maybe dismiss him/pact him once UA falls off in order to reset the CD sooner, then use UA+ghoul once the ghoul CD is up.

This would be a IT PS OB BS BS | OB OB OB rotation w/ ghoul, OB, FS glyphs.

Not sure which talents you'd use - maybe 3/5 KM and no IIT? 3/5 KM 2/3 BCB?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ghoul would do ~400 dps (or more) for 20 secs, meaning an extra ~8k every 1.5 min... which I guess would only be about 90 dps total. Plus you'd get a kickass heal at the end

Just a thought

EDIT: heh, aezoc just barely beat me to it!

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Old 08/06/09, 12:33 PM   #914
Aezoc
Piston Honda
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Scilla
Originally Posted by Melchior View Post
Yeah, the OH actually swings separately directly after each attack. You will see an animation for each strike.

I noticed that the Rime proc was actually *very* delayed sometimes. I don't know what causes this but there were times that I wouldn't receive Freezing Fog for up to 3 seconds after I hit OB. Makes it a little harder to hold KM procs for it.
I was just messing with it on a dummy, and I think this is when Rime procs off the delayed OH swing plus the normal latency I described a page or two back. Basically, it means we're losing Rime procs (because you've already obliterated again by the time the proc shows up), and wasting KM procs (by doing FS and burning KM before Rime appears). Particularly with 3/5 KM, it's very frustrating trying to execute a KM HB. I'm still curious whether the sim models ToT as both hands striking immediately, or if it accounts for the delay on the OH and the complications that brings.

Last edited by Aezoc : 08/06/09 at 1:11 PM.

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Old 08/06/09, 1:13 PM   #915
Burglekutt
Glass Joe
 
Undead Priest
 
Black Dragonflight
Here's my very first time using 0/53/18 last night, things to note, I didn't have my meta gem activated, I had zero epic gems, and since it was my very first time I'm sure I didn't do the rotation justice, mostly using 2h blood spec oriented gear 3 or 4 bis with way too much hit rating:

Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

xt HM, 1 heart phase: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

I did notice the Rime delay thing, that does make things pretty difficult sometimes.

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