sweberry

@Sakuratei: Remember this is a DW-thread, not a Frost DPS-thread; Consider and Fargom talked about and chose to put the unholy DW specs here instead of the unholy DPS-thread.

My point being: He's not talking about a frost DW spec. Necromir makes a strong point I forgot about too; the fact that DC is your highest hitting ability and the focus of the spec. While the 2H unholy-builds are doing less and less damage through DC.

 

Sakuratei

I'm sorry? I quote "I know that sub-blood has been discussed and thusfar proven inferior to sub unholy specs with regards to frost DW." and "I guess what I'm asking is twofold: first, has sub-blood been revisited on the PTR with regards to Dark Conviction and 4pc?".

I take that as if he is asking if subspec Blood will be superior for Frost builds if we use T9 four set. Upon which I made my argument in my previous post. As for Unholy builds, I won't head into the discussion as I never have had a look at those.

 

Nashjar

just a question

i left wow half a year ago now i am back and i always played DW DK.

my question is:

are the speccs of post 1 still the best ?

and another question:

i cant read anything about expertise cap (maybe i am blind) does a DW DK cap it ?
Prio: Spell Hit > Expertise > Armor Pen ?

and how much armor pen do u need ?



hope i am getting some answers cause its hard to read about 60 pages in this thread

 

sweberry

@Sakuratei: I'm terribly sorry! In hindsight I see it clearly now, I guess following this and the Unholy DPS-thread at the same time can lead to mistakes like this. As for your argument for Unholy subspec it's solid as heck!

@Nashjar: You can see the stat weights in the OP clearly showing that you wan't to cap MELEE hit, then expertise, and then go for strength (ArP might be better than before but this isn't blood still). Spell hit is worth slightly less than ArP so you shouldn't disregard it on gear, it's good, you just don't NEED to cap it.

 

kronchev

I have a question about 0/18/53, Obliterate focused

The spec has 2 in Imp Unholy Presence but the description says to be rocking around in Blood. Why put the points there then when they can go into DPS-increasing talents? If it's for purely the movement speed, I'd rather just take a stat hit and enchant movement on my boots.

/edit: A few minutes of testing on a dummy and I was doing 400 less DPS in BP versus UP, but I assume that's because dummys have 1 HP so dots and diseases hit for all of 1.

Elitist Jerks forum: Now work safe, because you don't want to get caught wasting your company's time!

It was a question of how the abilities of the fight are handled. I did not know the answer so I come to the place where I expect to see well formulated, concise and correct answers. Not snotty comments. - eclectic778

Vent is only necessary because of bad players. - ebbv

 

Jackinthegreen

Given the 3.2.2 changes looming and the (Unholy) Obliterate DW build not likely being viable, perhaps a DW Scourge Strike build is in order?


Something along the lines of 5/13/53 seems to hit all the right notes and plays very similarly to 17/0/54. The downside is lowered crit because Dark Conviction can't be taken, but given them rebalancing for SS it should be decently close to the current DW OB build.

Edit: Clarified it being Unholy specific.

 

• vank

Why is the DW Obliterate build no longer viable in 3.2.2?

edit- I'll assume you meant DW Unholy builds using Obliterate. In that case, disregard.

 

Fargom

Just to run it by the community before I include it in an edit of the OP, I don't think this post received the credit it deserves. Mostly my fault for not seizing on this and including it in the OP. It appears that Virulence is the correct sigil for DW frost. It looks like it slightly wins out on single target, and obviously is better for multi target fights. With the focus on multi target dps for the harder fights in ToC I think we can move forward with suggesting this sigil for frost.

Any concerns?

I'll also be removing the unholy DW obliterate specs, I'll work on simulating a SS alternative and see if it is competitive. Either way, the DC spam spec remains a solid unholy option. Its actually not hard to imagine a SS DW build being competitive, scourge strike has a fairly small portion of its overall damage from the weapon itself. If anyone has anything they feel needs to be included or removed in the OP other than what I mentioned let me know. I've got a sneaking suspicion that 3.2.2 is tomorrow.

 

Konata

Although it is a good post, the final calculations they did was toward the non-GoD spec as well. So it would be good to make a note of that. I think Awareness may just be slightly better for the GoD spec.

Using their equation and using *5 instead of 4 gives ~314 dps for awareness.

 

Fargom

That's a good point, and probably accurate. I guess more calculations are needed, but SoV might be better any time you have multiple targets, which is almost always in ToC. I'll probably just settle it by putting a note that SoA is slightly ahead on single target, but SoV is better for multi-target. Either way its probably a very slight difference.

 

Sakuratei

Well, there are quite a few factors that aren't included in those calculations, the most accurate mention would probably be that for non GoD specs SoVir pulls slightly ahead. For GoD specs SoA probably gains more ground due to an extra Obliterate.

Points to note, 3.2.2 brings ArP down which hits SoA harder than SoVir, Frost Fever will be affected by Razorice, and T9 with critting dots gains nothing from SoA. The rough math is there, and one can imagine how these extra things will affect it.

 

direddyre

Updated stat values should be in order.
#1 For the new ArP obviously, and maybe a little section exploring how useful ArP is as a low stat if it's not worth it to max it out.
#2 the T9 2piece bonus has a lower stat value, I can't say exactly how much lower, but as the proc has a 45 sec icd, an uptime of less than 50% even with a Heart Strike spamming Blood Build, a value equal to 100 strength seems too much.
#3 A stat estimate for the 4 piece bonus
#4 An updated value for crit with the 4 piece bonus (the difference should be significant enough for different gear choices in some cases).

In addition, it seems that the GoD spec is currently the spec with the highest dps in most situations, but the hardest to pull off correctly, so it deserves some special attention imo.
In your GoD section, you're setting the emphasis wrong, GoD is not just about putting out more obliterates, it's about gaining a gcd and about stacking effects for your diseases. GoD benefits from the fact that Frost is gcd starved, so gaining a gcd basically means gaining a Frost Strike. You can pretty directly compare a "normal" Frost spec to a GoD Frost spec and see what you gain and what you lose. (Icy Touch plus Plage Strike plus Blood Strike damage vs Obliterate, one gcd and higher disease damage due to stacked effects and no clipped ticks)
The diseases are just one aspect of the GoD spec, but they are ideal for discussion in a theorycrafting setting, so you could put more emphasis on that. You could for instance suggest trinket choices that complement that kind of stacking (AP proc or AP use), or a certain starting rotation (it -> ps -> ob -> bs -> bt -> ua -> bs -> it -> ps -> ... just as an example), there are a lot of possibilities to optimize something like that, which is one of the main motivations of the spec.

Talking about the priorities for KM and Rime, however.. it is not really that relevant, you can't fully control that anyway. I think that should be properly set in context, otherwise the non expert reader can easily get confused and set the wrong priorities in his GoD playstyle. The usage of Rime is more advanced in the GoD spec, but it does not directly impact the rotation, so it's not the first thing somebody trying out GoD needs to consider too much.

 

Bensch78

I just posted my results simming DW Unholy comparing to 2H Unholy in the 2H Unholy Thread.

Results

 

eyzi

0-17-54 DW doesn't use dirge. You put these two points into desolation, which will result in 1-2% more dmg, which should be enough to put unholy DW spam on the same level as the other unholy builds.

Furthermore the 15% gained runspeed are usually not considered due to the simulator mechanics.

 

Bensch78

Actually simmed it:

0-17-54 - 4/5 Desolation with 0/2 Dirge: 7615 dps

0-17-54 - 2/5 Desolation with 2/2 Dirge: 7636 dps (This is within 50 dps to my other result (7688 dps), RNG from the sim i think - did the other sims with 1.1.1 and now with 1.1.2)

Do the sims yourself to see that Dirge is the better investment. Nothing wrong with my sims.

3-13-55 - 7739 dps (with 1.1.2 to show, that the difference is the same)

Still 100 dps difference as before. Nothing changed to 1.1.1 (as it should be)

 

Xabora

The other bonus is the crit % bonus modifier, which makes it go from 50% (Default) to 100% double spell damage.

Effect #2	Apply Aura: Add % Modifier (15)
	Value: 100

 

Kithus

Either something is wrong with the sim or your priority sheet. Quoting myself from an older post when this was all discussed in this thread:

Also I just looked at the priority sheet for UnholyDW that comes standard with the sim and its horrible. The proper priority sheet for 0-17-54 is:

<BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
<FrostFever></FrostFever>
<DeathCoil></DeathCoil>
<IcyTouch></IcyTouch>
<BloodStrike></BloodStrike>
<GhoulFrenzy></GhoulFrenzy>
<PlagueStrike></PlagueStrike>

 

aldy

To any DKs looking to DW but lacking decent weapons, currently [Tankard O' Terror] is a BoE, non-unique, ilvl 226 mace from the brewfest event. On my server there were a dozen on the AH, with the cheapest at 2,000g; you could pick up one or even a pair for cheap, or even just run the event yourself to get one. It's surprisingly good for a farmable BoE. Don't get mad at me if it gets changed though :-)

 

Flokke

I have been reading almost every page of this thread and have come to the conclusion that capping expertise is a good idea. My question on the subject, is that the truth for all specs. Currently i'm playing Unholy DW, DC spam spec, and i get dodged at 16 Expertise or 4% and only get dodged maybe once or twice in a fight. Would gemming for Expertise make a dps increase or not because realisticly it doesn't seem it would be to me.

 

eyzi

You will not gem for expertise, since 1 point strength equals 1.75-2.25 points of expertise rating.
Nevertheless, expertise feels like a good investment on items.
A missed plague strike will cost you damage because you are practically GCD capped.

 

DaReason23

hi. long time reader first time poster.

ill start off by saying ive tried 0/53/18 and easily topped charts while botching up the rotation many times but i just hate the part where i have to save freezing fog for km, its what messing me up alot and trying to watch those even with addons that helps it still kinda becomes annoying on movement heavy fight, but its still a great build.

also tried 3/51/17 and while i would like to make it my main spec, when im practicing the rotation on the dummies, not dps but the rotation, it seems to be cutting it very close even in a voa raid inviornment with buffs which is probablyy not a true raid, it still comes close. so it was just too much plus having to watch km and freezing fog. ive read all 69 pages. took me awhile and im just wondering how its working so well for the few ive seen that also said they would have extra globals to spare. is this because of enhance shaman buff alone? will the rotation only work in a raid enviornment where said buff is needed to make the rotation run smoothly?

with that being said, my other question is about 0/17/54 build rotation which im currently playing with because of uncertainty with GoD specs tightness. once again while praticing the rotation on the dummy, i find myself having runic power issues. im not much of a priority guy so i play better with a rotation. when practicing the roation, the
PS IT BS DC GF IT BS DC
PS IT IT DC DC PS IT IT DC DC

i dont seem to fit 4 DC's on the second half of the rotation even when i tried a slightly altered build dropping 2 from desolation and adding it to dirge. is it only gonna work out perfectly in a raid setting? i cant seem to figure it out cause i ran this build along with the old pre 3.2 DW SS build and never had any problems when praticing the rotation on dummy to get the hang of it before going into raids and instances. any advice/help would be appreciated cause ive never had this problem. you can check my armory and see if u find anything. ignore gemming as ive been away for a month around the time patch came out so im not yet up to speed. plus im lazy. but im pretty much decently geared for most specs but especially 0/17/54 spec

i have to say that im looking forward to the new dw ss 3.2.2 builds that will be comming back. as that was my favorite.

 

eyzi

I doubt that it is possible to get the maximum out of 0-17-54 DW without a priority system. This spec is highly dynamic and CDs you are dealing with are not helpful at all. You should try to rearrange your UI to get a better view over your rune timers.

I start a fight usually with:
HoW-GF/Army(out of combat)-IT-PS-BS-BS-trinket+gargoyle
After that you should use the priority system.

 

DaReason23

ill try that but the rotation they gave is pretty much closest thing to how it would be when doing priority. may get altered if u mess up but it kinda still falls back towards the look of a rotation.

 

Tsarin

I was curious whether the stat weighting would make the tankard worth spending the money on for my dk. Currently I cannot see that as worth the effort. Using the Frost stat weighting for [Aledar's Battlestar] vs [Tankard O' Terror], it appears to be better to stay with the Battlestar at least for my Deathknight who is a JC.

Item	Min	Max	Spd	Dps	AP	Str	Agil	Crit	Haste	ArP	Exp	Hit	Score
Battlestar - Hit	297	552	2.6	163.3	73	0	46	0	0	31	0	51	244561.4
Battlestar - Exp	297	552	2.6	163.3	73	0	46	0	0	31	34	13	241615.4
Battlestar - STR	297	552	2.6	163.3	73	34	46	0	0	31	0	13	238691.4
Battlestar - AP	297	552	2.6	163.3	141	0	46	0	0	31	0	13	236617.4
Battlestar - Crit	297	552	2.6	163.3	73	0	46	34	0	31	0	17	236265.4
Battlestar - ArP	297	552	2.6	163.3	73	0	46	0	0	65	0	13	236107.4
Battlestar - Haste	297	552	2.6	163.3	73	0	46	0	34	31	0	17	235653.4
Battlestar - Agil	297	552	2.6	163.3	73	0	80	0	0	31	0	13	233693.4
Tankard O'Terror	312	580	2.6	171.5	66	0	47	29	27	0	0	0	231744.4
Battlestar - Raw	297	552	2.6	163.3	73	0	46	0	0	31	0	17	231369.4

 

Kithus

Just for fun I did the math for 0/17/54 for Stormpike Cleaver vs Tempered Vis'kag the Bloodletter.

Stormpike Cleaver
58 Agi = 31.32 AP
39 Hit = 44.85 AP
39 Haste = 48.36 AP
78 AP

___________
Total APE 202.53 / 14 = 14.47 DPS value

Tempered Vis'kag the Bloodletter
Proc: 2222 damage, assumed 2.5% proc rate, no ICD (based off the old version)

2.6 Speed / .025 = 104 sec (average time per proc)

2222 / 104 = 21.37 DPS value

This completely ignores haste and assumes the proc can only happen via auto attack

Unless I'm missing something this weapon might actually be worth it.