If there's a 25 man deathbringer (Shadow bolt axe) it may be worth it as well. I don't suppose Fatal Wound on Viskag is considered a bleed for mangle purposes? Is it effected by armor?
I didn't get a chance to get one on ptr, so if anyone has/had one and knows that would be awesome.

As a note I've been reading through the Unholy DPS thread and checking out their 17/0/54 SS (or 15/0/56) DW Unholy build. The claim is that it blows 0/17/54 DC Spam out of the water. Unfortunately I haven't been able to get the SS build to even sim within several hundred DPS of 0/17/54. Anyone able to show me a stat sheet and priority/rotation sheet that makes this build better? I'm willing to be wrong but it is bugging me I can't figure out where they're getting their numbers from.

It also concerns me a bit that this build is almost an exact copy of a 2H build that does just slightly less DPS. The concern here is two fold:

1) If our best DW Unholy build is just an inferior use of the 2 handed unholy build, we should be using two handers

2) If using DW with the best 2 handed spec is almost equal DPS then the DW white damage advantage is closing the gap quickly and will likely overtake 2 handers entirely in Icecrown gear, which would probably incite a DW nerf.

Using stat weights from the OP I multiplied each stat by value and added up the totals. I assumed the 20 str gem for the yellow socket and ignored the socket bonus.

The tankard scored 231717.9
The battle star scored 235058.7
Difference 3340.9 or 1%

All things considered thats pretty much the same and the margin of error for stat values for your specific build/play style is probably going to create a greater delta.

Whoa hold on, 14 AP equals 1 dps on your weapon damage, not your overall damage. The actual calculation is much more complicated and would take into account all abilities, rotation etc, but as a rule of thumb 14 AP is much much more than just 1 dps.

Vis'kag on the other hand will probably proc from strikes as well, but the speculation is pointless until we know more about it, overall they probably balanced it in some way so it wouldn't be too far off similar level items.

You probably know the theory, but just in case, this is what I try to use:

If KM and Rime are up at the same time, use HB instead of the next Frost Strike. If Rime is up otherwise, try to use it before you start your rotation again (before the OBs so Rime doesn't get overwritten). This however depends on your RP situation since FS is more damage than HB without KM (and probably with KM too), so this is a bit of personal Judgement. With a GoD spec I'm usually glad about all Rime procs I can get since I'm not quite as gcd starved (This also means that I sometimes use Rime inbetween Obliterates if my RP is low, the possibilities for Optimisation are endless).

So much for the theory, in practice this is one of the things that make frost so interesting, because sometimes you need to react in split seconds to use a HB instead of a FS because you gained Rime/KM just then, I would lie if I said I managed that every time and I'm pretty sure most people here do neither.

If you have issues actually seeing the buffs, I recommend power auras or something similar
Power Auras Classic - Addons - Curse

You might have seen it in some boss kill videos, that is the addon that makes skill symbols glow at various screen places when that skill should be used (for instance Sword and Board for Warriors). You can set location, size, Icon, transparency, Animation and even a Sound if you want to.

Other than that it's just getting used to it, Frost DW takes some time to learn properly to the point where you can just do the dps in "semi auto mode" and concentrate on the actual fight otherwise.

Since i picked up 2x [Tankard O' Terror] and decided to try them out over my current 2x [Razorscale Talon], I had to level up maces since i've never used them on my Death Knight. I leveled the skill up on the Grove Walker's below Dalaran, and I noticed a couple of points that I wasn't aware of. I'm posting them here in case the points are relevant to anyone else unaware of them.

1) Althought my main hand weapon strikes (Plague Strike etc) were almost uniformly missing at low weapon skill, the offhand strikes never missed. Ever. Whether the MH strike missed, was parried or was dodged, the OH strike always connected. This worked for Plague Strike, Death Strike, Obliterate and Rune Strike.

2) Blood Plague is seemingly no applied by an offhand Plague Strike hit if your mainhand strike misses.

I'm doing a comparison between these 2 builds:

standard 0/17/54 using IUP, vengeful heart and the priority in Kahorie's DK Simulator

and this 0/13/58 using BP (note that it takes a fair amount of haste to chop down the spell GCDs to a comfortable level while in BP for this spec), virulence and the following rotation in Kahorie's DK Simulator:

<IcyTouch retry='1'></IcyTouch>
<PlagueStrike retry='1'></PlagueStrike>
<ScourgeStrike retry='1'></ScourgeStrike>
<BloodStrike retry='1'></BloodStrike>
<BloodStrike retry='1'></BloodStrike>
<DeathCoil retry='0'></DeathCoil>
<DeathCoil retry='0'></DeathCoil>
<IcyTouch retry='1'></IcyTouch>
<PlagueStrike retry='1'></PlagueStrike>
<ScourgeStrike retry='1'></ScourgeStrike>
<IcyTouch retry='1'></IcyTouch>
<IcyTouch retry='1'></IcyTouch>
<DeathCoil retry='0'></DeathCoil>
<DeathCoil retry='0'></DeathCoil>
<DeathCoil retry='0'></DeathCoil>

test conditions are:

character:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<character>
<stat>
<Strength>1736</Strength>
<Agility>432</Agility>
<Intel>58</Intel>
<Armor>13973</Armor>
<AttackPower>1397</AttackPower>
<HitRating>328</HitRating>
<CritRating>718</CritRating>
<HasteRating>415</HasteRating>
<ArmorPenetrationRating>230</ArmorPenetrationRating>
<ExpertiseRating>177</ExpertiseRating>
</stat>
<weapon>
<count>2</count>
<mainhand>
<dps>196.5</dps>
<speed>2.6</speed>
</mainhand>
<offhand>
<dps>196.5</dps>
<speed>2.6</speed>
</offhand>
</weapon>
<EP><base>50</base></EP>
<Set>
<T72PDPS>0</T72PDPS>
<T74PDPS>0</T74PDPS>
<T82PDPS>0</T82PDPS>
<T84PDPS>0</T84PDPS>
<T92PDPS>0</T92PDPS>
<T94PDPS>0</T94PDPS>
<T72PTNK>0</T72PTNK>
<T74PTNK>0</T74PTNK>
<T82PTNK>0</T82PTNK>
<T84PTNK>0</T84PTNK>
</Set>
<ChaoticSkyflareDiamond>1</ChaoticSkyflareDiamond>
<trinket>
<MjolnirRunestone>0</MjolnirRunestone>
<GrimToll>0</GrimToll>
<BitterAnguish>0</BitterAnguish>
<Mirror>0</Mirror>
<Greatness>0</Greatness>
<DCDeath>0</DCDeath>
<Victory>0</Victory>
<Necromantic>0</Necromantic>
<Bandit>0</Bandit>
<Pyrite>0</Pyrite>
<DarkMatter>0</DarkMatter>
<OldGod>0</OldGod>
<Comet>0</Comet>
<DeathChoice>0</DeathChoice>
<DeathChoiceHeroic>0</DeathChoiceHeroic>
</trinket>
</character>


dual fallen crusader, 100h test, 50ms latency, everything else default options.

0/17/54 yielded 7424 dps:

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
DeathCoil 436414012 16.3 76516 70.6 29.4 0 5703.6
MainHand 397690987 14.9 188601 48.6 38.3 13.1 2108.6
Ghoul 336603250 12.6 415465 86.9 13.1 0 810.2
IcyTouch 332197958 12.4 125629 70.3 29.7 0 2644.3
OffHand 228902942 8.6 188572 48.5 38.4 13.1 1213.9
Gargoyle 172161070 6.4 44965 87.1 12.9 0 3828.8
Necrosis 125384227 4.7 377173 100 0 0 332.4
UnholyBlight 122179037 4.6 76516 100 0 0 1596.8
PlagueStrike 112281567 4.2 68628 53.6 46.4 0 1636.1
BloodPlague 102848341 3.8 84411 100 0 0 1218.4
BloodCakedBlade 99064520 3.7 113613 100 0 0 871.9
FrostFever 74763053 2.8 61427 100 0 0 1217.1
Wandering Plague 69227427 2.6 56842 100 0 0 1217.9
BloodStrike 62792683 2.3 34333 59.5 40.5 0 1828.9
Horn 0 0 14992 100 0 0 0
DPS 7424
Total Damage 2672.51m in 100h
Threat Per Second 4852
Generated in 156s
Template: Unholy DW 0-17-54
Priority: Unholy DW
Presence: Unholy
Sigil: VengefulHeart
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True

0/13/58 yielded 7906 dps:

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
MainHand 439059491 15.4 170605 48.5 38.4 13.1 2573.5
DeathCoil 419378414 14.7 72038 70.5 29.5 0 5821.6
Ghoul 303931004 10.7 345300 86.9 13.1 0 880.2
OffHand 252643676 8.9 170539 48.5 38.4 13.1 1481.4
IcyTouch 222236014 7.8 68897 70.6 29.4 0 3225.6
ScourgeStrike 167149233 5.9 34449 55.3 44.7 0 4852.1
BloodPlague 155461134 5.5 103476 100 0 0 1502.4
Gargoyle 154593044 5.4 37908 87.1 12.9 0 4078.1
Necrosis 138280599 4.9 341144 100 0 0 405.3
FrostFever 129296294 4.5 86080 100 0 0 1502
BloodCakedBlade 109348365 3.8 102797 100 0 0 1063.7
Wandering Plague 109071730 3.8 72602 100 0 0 1502.3
PlagueStrike 87160472 3.1 34449 55.4 44.6 0 2530.1
UnholyBlight 83865926 2.9 72038 100 0 0 1164.2
BloodStrike 74834526 2.6 34450 61.1 38.9 0 2172.3
Horn 0 0 12292 100 0 0 0
DPS 7906
Total Damage 2846.31m in 100h
Threat Per Second 5358
Generated in 69s
Template: unholyspam
Rotation: unholyspam
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Virulence
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True

~480 dps seems pretty significant to me, thats why i'm sharing here. again, take note that haste greatly effects your spell GCDs and brings the rotation tighter. this build is just the standard DC spam build modified to make the most of virulence, but these numbers look promising. i tried it in UP and with GF, both of these appeared to be losses from my testing.

A bit of a newcommer with questions:

I was planning on going DW frost with a 3/51/17 spec. I planned on using both glyph of disease & IIT.

But i've been reading disease does not refresh icy talons, This seems odd to me as the talent clearly states "affected by frost fever". And frost fever does get reapplied.

Can anyone confirm it does or does not work as I personally prefer a disease rotation for 3.2.2.


As a second question I wondered why is it worth using KM/Rime with HBs? instead of just FS's. Is it just to save 32 runic power & fill a spare gcd ? I would think the rune generation to be sufficient to fill every single gbc without the need of HB.

@ Nihillus

Is there a reason you aren't simulating with a priority instead of a rotation? I've tested the DC spam build in the simulator and achieved much higher results than you show. Also, I see the logic behind using the same stat set, but for the DC spam armor pen has such a low value I don't think anyone would run 230 ArP ever.

Once we nail down an exact SS build I'll post it to the OP, I'm thinking that a blood subspec would actually offer more dps than frost for a SS build, due to dark conviction interacting with the 4 piece bonus. There were competitive DW SS builds in the past, and I'm sure there still will be.

If we prioritize IT over SS, it will never SS but use the F rune to IT and then PS with the U rune. If we prioritize SS over IT, it looks like it shuffles things around (34492 BS's, 46125 PS's, 32713 SS's, when in a rotation, each of these are called equally). This might be due to how it handles disease priority. It appears to lose a small bit of damage when it does this. Since standard DC spam builds call PS/IT as RP builders and not just to apply diseases, I would guess they arent altered by this.

If we had a priority to SS for Virulence if <10sec were left on the buff, then it might be possible, but it doesnt look like the priority system likes the epidemicless disease priority regardless.

About the character sheet numbers: I was comparing many builds to some of Bensch's testing in the 2h thread, so I was just using the numbers he was for continuity (although i replaced the stats from Justicebringer - Item - World of Warcraft with dual The Grinder - Item - World of Warcraft). I think the 2 builds would have similar EP values with the exception of haste, which trims down the spell GCD's of the Blood Presence build.

I'm not saying this is a definitive spec or anything, just appeared to sim well compared to other specs being tossed around so I thought I'd mention it.

in game i was actually getting the best numbers by using 3/13/55.

i started with the dirge, no epidemic build and had ok results. then i shifted to no dirge with epidemic and moved from GoIT to GoD and dps went up considerably on single target fights so i'm sure on ae during fights (snobolds, jaraxxus adds, faction champs, everything in toc it seems) GoD + epidemic would push well ahead of the death coil fueled build.

my current problem is my gear has extremely little in realm of expertise so i tried running with 12 / 26 and it seemed to give me more wasted GCDs than i care to deal with so i might swap out some of the str gems and go back to exp gems to hit 26 / 26.

oh i'm switching from the iup dc spam spec so blood presence seems soooooooo slow.

It seems they've fixed the offhand strike delay for most strikes in 3.2.2. All my strikes apart from Blood Strike attack with both weapons instantly, like Mutilate does for Rogues. Not necessarily a DPS increase, but it should make KMRimes a bit more comfortable without the delayed Rime proc from the offhand Obliterates.

Didn't the human have a expertise bonus with sword ?

@bossmaann
It's right in the OP, read it. Its in the AEP table.

@Sakuratei
Finally, such an annoying delay. The delay was sometimes up to 5 seconds.
This might actually be a bit of a dps boost too; it wasn't uncommon for rime to proc after my FS dumps which often means no KM up.

@Toxine
Don't they also have it with maces ?

@Muram
It doesn't matter what the high end or low end is. As long as the average weapon damage is the same (which it is seeing as they have the same DPS and speed).

As it's already been pointed out 0/17/54 uses a priority sheet, not a rotation and it will not work properly with a rotation. Also you are using optimal stats for one build then declaring it better than the other. 230 Armor Pen, 415 Haste for 0/17/54? I'm all for trying to work with the same set of stats but these things have to be taken into account.

Both swords and maces at 3. At first glance I'd say the higher top end would be better, but I haven't done a lot of research into the matter. Ultimately it comes down to whether the strikes use average or top end.

Just a note regarding Viskag. I picked one up last night as well, and while dummy tests are less than desirable I noticed one thing. No buffs at all besides Blood Pres, It procced 3 times in one minute test, doing 1553 damage each time on a heroic dummy. I repeated the same test on a level 80 dummy, and the proc hit for 1609 with the same buffs. I then had a feral druid and a ret paladin join my party, for the 8% crit, mangle, and 3% damage. The damage on the proc jumped up to 1658, indicating it was effected by the 3% damage from the ret paladin, but not mangle. I currently have 9.36% armor pen.

I just threw on armor pen gear, jumping from 9.36% to 24.79%, causing the average strike to become 1640 on a heroic dummy, with no buffs. This indicates it is effected by armor and +% damage buffs.

Also, out of 15 procs today, I've had one crit, so it is possible to crit, however I do not believe it uses melee/spell crit, or else I'm really unlucky. (24% Melee and 17% Spell)

EDIT: Just noticed the crit was for 3378, meaning it is also effected by Deathknight's Runic Focus.

I used a DW unholy priority sheet for the 0/17/54, the rotation was only for the 0/13/58. I said that in my first post, but the rotation file for the 0/13/58 takes a lot of room, so I can see how one would miss it.

The stats I was using were based off a comparitive Bensch was doing to many specs in the 2h Unholy thread. The ArP should be about equally bad for both builds. The haste is very potent in the 0/13/58, and may lead to at least some of the difference I saw between the two specs in my runs.

Bensch came to 3/13/55 as his preferred spec in this post. It's the same spec that I listed, but with 3 points from reaping moved to subversion.

Comparing reaping to subversion, I get the following:

Subversion is 9%crit to approx 12% of total damage in a PS>IT>SS>BS>BS>Dump rotation.
For simplicity .09*.12=.0108 so ballparked at 1% dmg increase for 3/3 subversion.

Reaping replaces 2 BS's (avg damage: 2172) with 2 IT's (avg damage: 3225) which gains an additional 20 RP (50% of a DC [avg=5821*1.2[UB]=6985] is coming to 3492).
[(3225-2172)*2]+3492=5598dmg per 20sec
5598dmg/20s=279.9dps
279.9dps/8000dps total = 0.034 or a 3.4% increase for 3/3 reaping by my math. A bit less because the rotation will be a little over 20sec due to GCD constraints.

Pros of reaping: it benefits more from Haste GCD redux (due to using IT's).

Cons: DC's from the RP stressing the rotation time, as its pretty tight as a blood rota (14GCD's is a 21sec rota before haste GCD reduction, and thats before a bonus DC/Horn/ERW/BT/etc.). Also misses threat reduction!

EDIT: I should note that Bensch ran the numbers for 0/13/58 in the above mentioned post, but his numbers showed it doing less than 3/13/55. 2 guesses as to a cause of the difference between our 2 findings:

1) when comparing my 2h specs to my DW specs, I used his character sheet for 2h builds for continuity, but replaced the stats of Justicebringer - Item - World of Warcraft with the stats of dual The Grinder - Item - World of Warcraft when comparing DW builds. Notably this increased the haste, which I'm guessing is the top reason between our differences.

2) My rotation had 3 calls for DC in the 2nd dump phase of the rota, i saw his only had 2. Removing that call in my rota lost me 50dps. Adding a 3rd call to the 1st dump phase also lowered the dps when tested.

<stat>
<Strength>1863</Strength>
<Agility>324</Agility>
<Intel>58</Intel>
<Armor>13973</Armor>
<AttackPower>1257</AttackPower>
<HitRating>328</HitRating>
<CritRating>728</CritRating>
<HasteRating>345</HasteRating>
<ArmorPenetrationRating>312</ArmorPenetrationRating>
<ExpertiseRating>177</ExpertiseRating>

</stat>
<weapon>
<count>2</count>
<mainhand>
<dps>196.5</dps>
<speed>2.6</speed>
</mainhand>
<offhand>
<dps>196.5</dps>
<speed>2.6</speed>
</offhand>
</weapon>
<EP><base>50</base></EP>
<Set>
<T72PDPS>0</T72PDPS>
<T74PDPS>0</T74PDPS>
<T82PDPS>0</T82PDPS>
<T84PDPS>0</T84PDPS>
<T92PDPS>0</T92PDPS>
<T94PDPS>0</T94PDPS>
<T72PTNK>0</T72PTNK>
<T74PTNK>0</T74PTNK>
<T82PTNK>0</T82PTNK>
<T84PTNK>0</T84PTNK>
</Set>
<ChaoticSkyflareDiamond>1</ChaoticSkyflareDiamond>

All tests done with 150ms latency:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

0-13-58

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
MainHand 86740953 16.4 33461 50.3 36.7 13 2592.3
DeathCoil 68517435 13 11604 70.3 29.7 0 5904.6
Ghoul 62750898 11.9 68040 87 13 0 922.3
OffHand 49967537 9.5 33454 50.3 36.7 13 1493.6
IcyTouch 35687009 6.8 10850 69.5 30.5 0 3289.1
BloodPlague 31762890 6 21244 100 0 0 1495.1
Gargoyle 29921200 5.7 7188 87.3 12.7 0 4162.7
Necrosis 27345465 5.2 66915 100 0 0 408.7
FrostFever 26353184 5 17418 100 0 0 1513
ScourgeStrike 25665439 4.9 5425 56.7 43.3 0 4731
BloodCakedBlade 21758879 4.1 20014 100 0 0 1087.2
Wandering Plague 20423958 3.9 13603 100 0 0 1501.4
UnholyBlight 13704221 2.6 11604 100 0 0 1181
PlagueStrike 13605593 2.6 5425 56.7 43.3 0 2507.9
Blood Boil 7443726 1.4 2713 70.5 29.5 0 2743.7
BloodStrike 5772181 1.1 2713 61.9 38.1 0 2127.6
Horn 0 0 2738 100 0 0 0
DPS 7325
Total Damage 527.42m in 20h
Threat Per Second 4872
Generated in 38s
Template: Unholy 0-13-58
Rotation: UnholyDW2
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Virulence
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True

<Rotation>
<IcyTouch retry='1'></IcyTouch>
<PlagueStrike retry='1'></PlagueStrike>
<ScourgeStrike retry='1'></ScourgeStrike>
<BloodStrike retry='1'></BloodStrike>
<BloodBoil retry='1'></BloodBoil>
<DeathCoil retry='0'></DeathCoil>
<DeathCoil retry='0'></DeathCoil>
<IcyTouch retry='1'></IcyTouch>
<PlagueStrike retry='1'></PlagueStrike>
<ScourgeStrike retry='1'></ScourgeStrike>
<IcyTouch retry='1'></IcyTouch>
<IcyTouch retry='1'></IcyTouch>
<DeathCoil retry='0'></DeathCoil>
<DeathCoil retry='0'></DeathCoil>
<DeathCoil retry='0'></DeathCoil>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

0-17-54

Ability Total % Landed Hit% Crit% Miss% Average
DeathCoil 116529420 20.6 20108 70.5 29.5 0 5795.2
MainHand 80103291 14.1 37128 50.3 36.8 13 2157.5
IcyTouch 70596420 12.5 26059 69.6 30.4 0 2709.1
Ghoul 69468095 12.3 81314 86.8 13.2 0 854.3
OffHand 46086078 8.1 37087 50.2 36.7 13.1 1242.6
Gargoyle 35688688 6.3 9085 86.9 13.1 0 3928.3
BloodPlague 25752754 4.5 20682 100 0 0 1245.2
Necrosis 25233957 4.5 74215 100 0 0 340
UnholyBlight 23299028 4.1 20108 100 0 0 1158.7
BloodCakedBlade 20175373 3.6 22240 100 0 0 907.2
Wandering Plague 14488928 2.6 11637 100 0 0 1245.1
FrostFever 14458314 2.6 11618 100 0 0 1244.5
BloodStrike 13565594 2.4 7305 62 38 0 1857
PlagueStrike 11243644 2 6746 55.5 44.5 0 1666.7
Horn 0 0 1991 100 0 0 0
DPS 7871
Total Damage 566.69m in 20h
Threat Per Second 5186
Generated in 58s
Template: Unholy DW 0-17-54
Priority: DualUnholy2
Presence: Unholy
Sigil: VengefulHeart
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader / FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True

<Priority>
<BloodPlague></BloodPlague>
<FrostFever></FrostFever>
<DeathCoilMaxRp></DeathCoilMaxRp>
<IcyTouch></IcyTouch>
<BloodStrike></BloodStrike>
<DeathCoil></DeathCoil>
<GhoulFrenzy></GhoulFrenzy>
<PlagueStrike></PlagueStrike>

I noticed in your 0/13/58 rota you are calling a blood boil on the first run. while this does more damage then a bs, i would think it would cause an overall loss, due to BB not converting the blood rune to a death rune, and thus the final IT not firing.

The default priority for DW unholy in the sim seemed to be quite a bit off from the one you listed. I will try it out later, that will probably cover a good bit of the lost ground I'm seeing.

The latency was also diff in our tests (my 50, yours 150), with both builds that may be effecting differences as well. Both builds are tight free GCDs, so I'm not sure which this would impact more. Sometimes I noticed certain builds went up when latency increased in the sim (I think due to disease clipping or priority picking), could this be possible in this situation?

ATM I'm running EP values. Unless I come up with some drastic value for haste I'm going to take this as the 0/13/58 simming well compared to others as something weird that I'm doing or figuring, as it doesn't seem like others are supporting my data.

Just a quick question:
Is there an addon could distinguish the procs of FC/2T9/SoV?
Im currently using Tellmewhen, but it got a big problem with that.

As of 3.2.2 the names for the procs from these items are no longer the same, so you should have a very easy time distinguishing between them.