DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand - Page 71

Fishboss · 08/09/09, 1:11 AM

(edited)

Now I know what GoHB is (acronyms are ridiculous)
While I'm asking, do we have an up-to-date tanking thread for DW tanking or is that just taboo?

Vaedron · 08/09/09, 2:46 AM

Originally Posted by Fishboss

(edited)

Now I know what GoHB is (acronyms are ridiculous)
While I'm asking, do we have an up-to-date tanking thread for DW tanking or is that just taboo?

Dual-wield tanking is next to impossible to gear for because of the "parry gib" issue. Every time a boss parries one of your attacks their next attack has a 40% haste bonus applied to it, to compensate for the interruption to their normal swing timer. Because you attack so fast, dual-wielding can lead to a situation where a boss gets a string of hasted parry attacks against you which ends up feeling a whole lot like getting Windfuried, hence a "parry gib". To be able to dual-wield tank effectively, you would need to prevent almost all of your attacks from ever getting parried, which is only achievable with the expertise hard cap of 56 (460 rating) or something close to it. As you can imagine it's not easy to get that much expertise and still have room for hit, stam, or your avoidance stats.

Fishboss · 08/09/09, 3:00 AM

yea I realize expertise capping for it is near mandatory (with food buffs I near 20 on each hand)

Well then I feel broken for tanking at the moment =\

Carneage · 08/09/09, 3:35 AM

My spec im using is one i took from the first 2 frost specs that i find pretty superior to all the others.

(3/52/16)

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10192

the only two things im missing are Blood Caked Blade ranks 2 and 3. Otherwise the rest is all damage.

My Armory (I know i should be using 2 slow weapons but this was all i had from Pre-Ulduar times, will be replacing soon)

The World of Warcraft Armory

Lemme know what you think, Im pulling around 5.5k to 6k dps on avg on most fights with this build. (Thats with these shitty weapons and still getting used to the rotations)

My Rotation is the first one, IT < PS < Oblit < BSx2 < (Rune Dump) < Oblitx3 < (Rune Dump) repeat.

Again, Im posting this to open up more options for people, I still get the raid utility of IIT and get everything good BUT the Blood Caked ranks 2 and 3. Lemme know if its terrible and i should uninstall.

hamhack · 08/09/09, 3:50 AM

i'm currently running 0/53/18 with dual wielding. I am new to melee dps. I was know that the 8% cap on hit is for special attacks, but the hard cap for dual wielding is 27% (24% with 3% reduction talent). I was wondering if there is a point between 8% and 24% at which it is not beneficial to stack anymore hit due to the fact that other stats (strength, crit, etc.) would be more beneficial. Please let me know if this is even relevant or if I am missing a huge point here. I am new to the forums and i apologize in advance if this is the wrong place for this.

Ash*** · 08/09/09, 4:08 AM

Originally Posted by Vaedron

Dual-wield tanking is next to impossible to gear for because of the "parry gib" issue. Every time a boss parries one of your attacks their next attack has a 40% haste bonus applied to it, to compensate for the interruption to their normal swing timer. Because you attack so fast, dual-wielding can lead to a situation where a boss gets a string of hasted parry attacks against you which ends up feeling a whole lot like getting Windfuried, hence a "parry gib". To be able to dual-wield tank effectively, you would need to prevent almost all of your attacks from ever getting parried, which is only achievable with the expertise hard cap of 56 (460 rating) or something close to it. As you can imagine it's not easy to get that much expertise and still have room for hit, stam, or your avoidance stats.

Unless you can show the mathematical problems with this:
Cross-post: Parry and DW (external link)

I'm going to have to call bullshit on that argument.

The topic shows that the primary difficulties with DW tanking, especially with a slow/slow weapon setup, are actually strike related. This was a time before ToT talents made strikes no longer an issue for DW. In other words, DW tanking may well be viable for a frost tank. And even if it's not, "parry-gibbing" is doubtful to be the reason why.

Edit:
To summarize the linked topic:
Shown that DW slow/slow DK frost tanking is taking fewer parries than a warrior wearing a standard 1.6 speed tanking weapon and a shield. Some of the information is mildly out of date, but I feel the issue needs to be looked at more rigorously, not simply dismissed out-of-hand.

Foxx2405 · 08/09/09, 4:31 AM

So a little math to clarify just how bad the RP swamping is.

First half of a 20 sec rotation; IT, PS, BS, BS, OB, FS, FS
7 GCD's
Second half; OB, OB, OB, FS, FS
5 GCD's

Now, since the very start of the first half uses single runes, and the second half double runes, second half can't begin until PS unholy rune has refreshed. We use 6 GCD's in 10 seconds, assuming 200 ms and natural human reaction, you will have around 0,5 idle time before the second half.

When a KM Rime occurs, it means that one of your FS GCD's will be replaced by a HB, meaning you suddenly have 1 second overtime instead of 0,5 sec idle time. SO from a pure math point of view, it would take two full rotations without a KBRime to neutralize the first KMRime, and three rotations to neutralize each one after that (Each non KMRime reduces your overtime by 0,5 sec).

Now for RP. A full rotation generates 135 RP, and burns 128 RP, leaving you with 7 RP gain per rotation. When a KMRime occurs, you suddenly burn 32 less RP and generate 5 extra RP, meaning you gain 32+7+5=44 RP on a KMRime rotation. 32 of those RP are already reserved for the extra GCD mentioned above, but we still gain 12 RP on top of that.

Now, each GCD has the value of 32 RP. Simulating 7 rotations and assuming KMRime procs on two of them (Quite likely);

5*0,5 = 2,5*32 = 80 RP (the 0,5 idle time)
5*7 = 35 RP
+ 88 RP (KMRime rotations)

35+88-80 = 43 RP (One GCD over 7 rotations)

RNG is a big part of this issue, if you get a lot of KMRimes in a short span of time you will get RP swamped quite fast. Using KM for FS'es and only holding on Rime procs as previously suggested will reduce the chance of having KMRimes, and a long period of no KMRimes will eventually lead us back to the starting point of 0,5 second idle time.

This may not even contribute to anything, but I felt I needed to write it up to clarify for myself at least, and though I might as well share it.

This seems valid, there are some solid ways to reduce the pain however.

The first is to move to the 4/4 rotation. If instead using IT+PS on UF runes you use them on death runes, you never have a situation where you are switching from a 2 rune attack to a 1+1 rune attack.

Ob>Ob>IT>PS
Ob>Ob>BS>BS

is a much smoother rotation, with more spread rime procs and more spread RP dumps.

The second option is the option of glyph of howling blast we discussed earlier. This adds a whole new level of complexity to this but it goes like this:

Ob>Ob>PS>XX >FS>FS
Ob>Ob>BS>XX >FS>FS

In this case the XX is either (note XX doesn't mean a rune ability, its rather a GCD slot):
- A KM Rime if that procced from any of the obliterates
- IT if KM/Rime didnt proc and FF is below 10 seconds
- BS is KM/Rime didn't proc and FF is above 10 seconds.

[e]: i changed the rotation to have the XX as last GCD slot (before RP dump) so you have more time to proc KM if that is not up yet. PS and BS will not steal KM procs away so that should work out fine.

This adds some complexity though, because now you're also having to watch the exact timer on FF to make a judgement. And you'll never know what button you'll be pressing until you're actually at that very GCD.
This does mean you leave a rune unused, but in terms of effective GCD usage this should work out good.
This also fixes the problem you mentioned where KM rimes extend your rotation. Because in this case they just exchange for a dps ineffective rune.

You don't lose any GCD time with KM Rime, you don't lose any FS with KM rime, you just don't do the IT (which is less dps than a FS anyway).
Theoretically this should be more dps, however the added level of complexity makes this a hard rotation to handle. If this works out, this specific rotation might make frost DW one of the hardest pve dps rotations to get down. I'm not sure how hard feral druid is, but this kind of proc interaction and dynamics in a dps rotation seems quite hard.

As for DW tanking:
As mentioned by the previous poster. Parry-gib is NOT an issue.

The problem is and always has been threat. Now that we have ToT that problem is partially fixed. However Rune Strike is not added to ToT, so my guess is that 2H builds are still superior. Rune strike is just a massive source of threat.

thelordymir · 08/09/09, 4:32 AM

Originally Posted by hamhack

i'm currently running 0/53/18 with dual wielding. I am new to melee dps. I was know that the 8% cap on hit is for special attacks, but the hard cap for dual wielding is 27% (24% with 3% reduction talent). I was wondering if there is a point between 8% and 24% at which it is not beneficial to stack anymore hit due to the fact that other stats (strength, crit, etc.) would be more beneficial. Please let me know if this is even relevant or if I am missing a huge point here. I am new to the forums and i apologize in advance if this is the wrong place for this.

I could be wrong, but I believe going fully towards 24% is impossible and would waste far too many stats. I would say 8% is the number to be looking for but I posted early asking about this but never got responded.

DarkAngelus · 08/09/09, 4:43 AM

Just to summarize the difference between the GoDisease rotation and GoHB/GoIT rotation :

GoDisease :

- more GCG for KM Rime proc or FS
- more dps from the diseases since we refresh the full buffed diseases
- hard to keep in movement fight since the timing for refresh is limited

GoHB/IT

- easier to maintain as a rotation
- less GCD available for KM rime / FS

In terms of DPS it's seems to be IT + PS + BS vs OB regardless the points above.

Anything I'm missing ? I can't manage to decide which one I will play right now.

Thanks

Sylari · 08/09/09, 4:52 AM

Non Disease builds also bring a potent raid buff disease won't be

HB and IT glyph specs do have a different rotation though... I'm still not sure if IT is really a viable option, unless you have an excuse to sit in UP ( I don't have any definitive math yet, but I haven't seen an appreciable difference between UP and BP, and that's NOT re-enchanting my boots from tuskarr's to icewalker, which would lean in UP's favor ).. there's just too much RP being generated.

Drakenar · 08/09/09, 4:58 AM

I was running 3/51/17 using Glyph of Disease to refresh diseases till I noticed that without using Icy Touch I didn't get Icy Talons!

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...&version=10192

So I decided decided to try some stuff and I ended it with 2/51/18. I dropped Blood Caked Blade and picked up Outbreak and picked up Glyph of Plague Strike.

My rotation is looking something like this now...

(Single Target)
IT, PS, OB, BSx2, Frost Strike, Frost Strike, OB, IT,PS and so on.

I am getting about 4k on a dummy with less than 30% health (3 minute test)

This is with a 4 T8 Bonus.... I'm digging it. Should check it out.

Sylari · 08/09/09, 5:07 AM

Originally Posted by Drakenar

I was running 3/51/17 using Glyph of Disease to refresh diseases till I noticed that without using Icy Touch I didn't get Icy Talons!

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...version=10128#

So I decided decided to try some stuff and I ended it with 2/51/18. I dropped Blood Caked Blade and picked up Outbreak and picked up Glyph of Plague Strike.

My rotation is looking something like this now...

(Single Target)
IT, PS, OB, BSx2, Frost Strike, Frost Strike, OB, IT,PS and so on.

I am getting about 4k on a dummy with less than 30% health (3 minute test)

This is with a 4 T8 Bonus.... I'm digging it. Should check it out.

That's normal, GoD doesn't apply diseases, only refreshes them, so naturally there'd be no icy talons.

But uh, You're using plague strike about once every 20 seconds, Glyphed plague is 60% weapon damage.. outbreak pushes that up to 78% weapon damage... the extra 18% weapon damage every 20 seconds isn't worth the point, even if you are glyphing PS, stick with BCB.

Sakuratei · 08/09/09, 6:25 AM

Foxx2405: The problem I see with both those rotation options is that you would have to start with two non-diseased Obliterates in the start of each fight and every time you break off long enough for diseases and runes to refresh.

With the GoHB replacing GoIT, we lose a GCD in the first non KMRime rotation. It leaves us with 29 RP after each rotation. Mathemathically this means that each rotation borrows 3 RP from the next rotation to perform a FS, and 29/3 equals roughly 9,6 meaning we lose a GCD every tenth rotation.

Although, seeing as FS is on the lowest priority, do we actually lose DPS by having too much RP? In a normal rotation you burn at most 96 RP in one go, before using more rune abilities. A full rotation with GoIT gives us a 7 RP gain. ALso, a normal rotation slowly works back toward a 0,5 idle time per rotation, but the likelyhood of having that many rotations without a KMRime after being swamped/capped is highly unlikely.

Basically it comes down to being uncomfortable with a full RP meter, unless I'm missing some theoretical DPS calculation that says generating RP when we are capped is a DPS loss. Factor in the ability to use Mind Freeze and IBF without disrupting the rotation at that point, then becoming RP capped seems quite unlikely, even if RP swamped.

Edit: Ignore the first two paragraphs, using a first rotation as 'IT PS OB BS BS, Dump, OB OB IT PS, Dump' solves both issues. The GCD's score out even, you are set up for a 4/4 rotation at the cost of OB - (IT+PS). It even ends up with 34 RP at the start of the next rotation, fueling the fourth FS of the next (34/33 = 11,333..) eleven rotations.

GoHB then definately becomes an option, the question is if it will be a DPS increase.

sweberry · 08/09/09, 6:45 AM

I wonder if we really gain anything from all these posts going "this is my spec i like it", I think not. Try bringing something to the discussion instead of just throwing a new spec out there.

@Sakuratei: When I read your first post about the RP swamping that was exactly what I thought. Even though we tend to swamp - how bad is it actually? It will also instantly reset to the 0.5 idle time if you have to break dps on the boss which happens alot nowadays. Are you using a set rotation or a priority? A priority with FS-weaving works very well for me and even though I sometimes throw 1-2 obliterates while RP-capped I don't really feel very bad about it. The only question I have is if the IT glyph does nothing but help swamp or if it actually gives something to the build? I've noticed that at the start of a fight I tend to have place to do IT PS OB BS BS FS FS HOW FS and still not postpone the runes >3 sec, which is very nice and might be an effect of the glyph.

Sakuratei · 08/09/09, 6:52 AM

Onward to GoHB versus GoIT in terms of KMRime rotations and RP gain.

A thought struck me when I was doing the above calculations on rotation with GoHB. It occured to me that using the GoHB and using it reactively to apply FF is working against RP swamping on two fronts.

Firstly, it removes the issue of Rime taking an extra GCD. Secondly, it only generates 5 RP instead of 15 (25 with GoIT) that we would've gotten with IT. This means that a KMRime rotation needs to borrow 13 RP instead of 3 to perform the fourth FS, and shortening the time before we lose a GCD from the original rotation (see previous post, paragraph two) by a third.

Arguably, the eventual lost GCD could be filled with using BS with the unused Death Rune due to Rime, but then we are looking at;

a) losing a bit of damage in the first rotation to set up the rotation needed, and this occurs every time we break off for more than 10 seconds/switch targets.

b) we replace a FS from a GoIT rotation with a BS roughly every fourth rotation (assuming KMRime procs twice in 10 rotations).

Sorry for the double posting, but I just felt I was on a roll here. Feel free to double check my math, I'm good with maths but new to theorycrafting.