Single disease specs are dumb for two reasons:

• You lose the bonus damage to Blood Strike/Oblit.
• Blood Plague does a significant amount of damage, especially on fights with more than one target (essentially all of ToC).

Blood Plague and Necrosis usually combine to form about 15-20% of my total damage on any given encounter and I don't think that the ~500 AP and 5% crit you'll get from a Blood sub-spec (in addition to losing 3% strength and 1% spellhit) can come anywhere close to making up for that.

I have not yet sucessfully figured out how to run the disease set up and "second IT" to get the attack rotation to flow smoothly for the 3/51/17 DW build using the disease glyph. Am I missing where this might be explained?

@Kithus:
You can't simply rule out the IIT 0/53/18 or 3/53/15-builds since I bet alot of players still need to supply IIT. I admit to GoD being stronger but not that much stronger that it makes other builds not matter at all, I haven't simmed it lately but guess it (the IIT-build) is still stronger than Unholy DW.

And as Fargom pointed out the IT glyph is mostly just overflowing you with RP (very much so in a raid setting with RP coming from AMS and druids), and the new glyph will probably be a significant boost (almost like going from 2 glyphs to 3) and should pull the IIT-spec a bit closer to GoD.

The current unholy DW build 0/17/54 is going to way of the dodo in 3.3 due to the GoIT change. We had two new builds forming but basically all the data we had needs to be thrown out due to the recent PTR changes (4pT9 and SS). 0/53/18 does sim very well, approximately 100 DPS below the frost build without IIT, however this is before the nerf to 4pT9 is factored in. 0/53/18 uses the new GoIT, the other frost build uses GoD for best results and has no room for GoIT.

I didn't bother simming 0/53/18 before because I knew it was just a bit behind the IIT-less build. The difference is, at least in part, made up by IIT. I mainly simmed out the top DPS frost build out of personal curiosity to see where the top unholy builds stood in comparison. Basically if you're going frost anyways you're using the GoD build unless your raid needs IIT. If you're going unholy you are either doing so because your raid benefits from you bringing Ebon Plague. That or you have a really good fast offhand which is a detriment to a frost build.

I'm wondering how your BP and Necrosis numbers turn out to be that high. First I thought you were using GoD to keep max AP diseases up figuring you were talking Unholy DW or something, but I see you're frost as well and since your replying to a frost post I'll assume you're talking about frost.

My diseases almost always range from 6-8% of my dmg, while Necrosis (granted, from the top of my head) is around 5-6%. Am I missing something here? How do your numbers for diseases get that much inflated?

Note: I do use 4T9, but ilvl 232, and 179 dps weapons. I still have no clue how BP and Necrosis can be more than 15% of your damage, could you enlighten me?

Not sure, I run a pretty standard frost spec/priority system and don't really do anything out of the ordinary. Here's a parse from last night if you're interested in digging deeper: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis.

I think I see now, I assumed single target dps combat while you were referring to 15-20%. I went over the logs and I'm seeing more similar numbers to mine (12-13%) in the more single target oriented fights (e.g. Beasts), but if adds come into play the percentage of your damage from Blood Plague is sometimes nearly doubled. I do agree with your POV on blood subspec - it won't make up for that.


I'm probably logged out in my main (tanking) spec gear, I do use ilvl 232 4T9 as stated

I understand Kithus, I would just be curious to see what kind of dps boost the new GoIT would give the IIT-spec since alot of people will probably still use it, and I can't sim myself right now.

I'd add one more reason: Multi-target damage. I've tested out the recently-posted UH specs that use DnD in their rotations, and they do far and away the best damage when there's more than one target in range - quite useful for fights like Anub'Arak. And unlike most other specs, this one does it without sacrificing any personal dps - the only change in rotation is swapping a BB for a PE, and Wandering Plague more than makes up the damage lost from BB.

When I am looking to maximize my DPS on Heroic Anub'arak (TotGC), I figured I would spec frost. What would be the best way to maximize DPS in this build? Would I want to use DnD glyph and HB glyph? Does pest refresh diseases on the burrowers as well as anub?

If you want to maximize your AoE-damage you should be going Unholy, with DnD-glyph. IF you really wan't to be frost the GoD-spec would work, or the IIT-spec with DnD-glyph instead of IT-glyph if you have to supply the raid-buff.

Almost all of your damage will be coming from DnD, diseases, DC and Auto Attacks, so yes

On a side note, you should choose what you're most comfortable with, Frost does perform pretty well on that fight if you use it accordingly (timing pestilence and changing your rotation to include as many HBs as possible). If you are in a guild attempting that fight you should already have a pretty good idea of what you need to do.

I'm rather certain that most Frost DKs use IIT builds. Not just because their raid needs IIT but also because "intuitively" it's the first spec to think of and is much easier to learn.

The Calculations for the dps increase should be rather simple though, IIT specs are RP capped anyway, so just add a flat 20% to your current Frost Fever damage (minus 4PT9 QQ) and you should have a pretty good idea.

Looking at one of the highest Frost DW DKs WMOs it looks like he uses a modified version of the rotation to produce MUCH higher results.

Just by looking at it he uses a priority of Diseases > Capped RP FS > IT > OB > BS > FS. So actually it looks about the same as the standard rotation except he uses his death runes to spam two IT to give a full FS in RP generated.

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay - Jaraxxus HM
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay - Twins HM

Notice his IT counts versus his PS counts. With epidemic you should get 3 IT for ever 1 PS in a 20 second rotation. Looks like a few may be lost during movement but that ration is pretty close. I'm wondering if this rotation/priority would actually sim higher.

It's a standard Unholy Presence style. The idea is to use Death Runes for IT if you need RP, and OB if you don't need RP (that's why it's not a perfect 3:1 IT:PS ratio). Filling as many GCDs as possible is key in unholy presence, and therefore you almost have to have a restoration druid in your raid for revitalize. My output in 10-mans without said druid is much lower. Anti-Magic Shell is obviously also very useful to generate extra RP.

This is basically (or exactly) how many of us played frost in 3.1. The difference now being that Frost Strike is a shadow of what is once was, so now people tend to push Obliterate instead. Theorycraft says an Obliterate heavy Blood Presence priority is better, so people will naturally go that route. However, Unholy Presence has a lot of advantages that doesn't show up in simulations or theorycraft. First off is the "free" boot enchant, since you no longer need to enchant run speed (which I think most people do). The extra run speed (7% more than boot enchant) can be extremely valuable, but sadly isn't terribly useful in ToC. The extra haste and the greater amount of attacks (more frost strikes) means you will apply razorice faster, which doesn't mean much on a 10 minute single target fight, but is a fair bit more useful on fights where you need to switch targets every now and then (killing snobolds and such). The lower GCD means you can output a larger amount of damage in a shorter time span. A good example would be bursting down Nether Portals on Jaraxxus.

Unholy Presence has its drawbacks too of course. Diseases and Death and Decay damage are the biggest ones. Howling Blast obviously also does 15% less damage, but with the extra haste you will get more Killing Machine procs, which offsets that loss a bit. Having more GCDs available means you can utilize Rime procs to a greater extent than in Blood Presence too.

The main reason I've been playing it though, is that it's simply a lot more fun. The difference between 1 and 1,5 seconds GCD is absolutely massive. It feels like I have to wait an eternity when I play in Blood Presence, which just gets on my nerves

All good things come to an end though. Everything shown in 3.3 so far just puts more nails in the coffin that is Unholy Presence in PvE. IT glyph is pivotal, and that change alone makes it nigh unusable. 2p T10 means we have to use Obliterate to the max. It really saddens me to have to let go (I've already begun). I really hope Blizzard makes some kind of attempt to make UP somewhat usable in PvE, but I'm not quite sure how they could. Maybe increase RP generation by 15% while in Unholy Presence? Make HB on Rime procs award the full 20 RP (15+5 from Chill of the Grave) instead of the 5 it does now. That would be a good start, and I don't think it would have any effect at all on Blood Presence DPS.

But UP is very valuable in pvp for the burst potential of shorter gcd (and the improved mobility).. So I'm not sure Blizzard will let UP be on par with BP for fear that it would bring too much burst dmg if you could fill every 1sec gcds with pretty hard-hitting (ok not as hard as before but still) Oblit/FS/HB

Possible but often not true.

Not every guild has an enhancer so i know two topguilds where DK's have often to apply IIT( i am in one of them, we had for two months not a single enhancer so two DKs needed to have at least a 2nd specc that provided IIT).

So it's absolutely necessary to discuss both speccs here.

And don't forget, that GoD cannot be used everywhere, eg Algalon or Faction Champions Hard.

Hi,

I've always been led to believe that, when it comes to comparing weapon stats for melee, weapon DPS reigns supreme and everything else on it remains ancillary stats. However, RAWR certainly doesn't think so, and so i'm wondering whether the problem is with my understanding of stat importance?

For example, i'm currently running [Tempered Vis'kag the Bloodletter] MH and [The Grinder] OH with 20STR gem in it. Vis'kag is 196.5 DPS and Grinder is 178.8 DPS, so i've always been lead to believe that such a large difference in raw DPS will outweigh any stat variations. However, Rawr models The Grinder far higher than Vis'kag, and in fact ranks even the Tankard O'Terror from the Brewfest daily ahead of it. As per :



Is this correct? or a flaw in Rawr's calculations? I find the proc alone from Vis'kag makes up about 1-2% of my DPS on average for a mostly single target fight, so it just seems... counter-intuitive i guess.

Many thanks in advance.

I noticed a peculiarly original result in priorities on emulator: If KM Rime proc is placed after BS, DPS is slightly increased; from 7788 to 7806 (8h emulation, 100ms, default DW gear setup, v.1.1.7.0, sigil of virulence, all bufs but draenei, spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft)

My main concern that started me toying with the priorities is that this Spec's Rime may be refreshed after a 2nd Obliterate and hence have a 'wasted' Rime. In that case using Rime before any Obliterate sounded like a good idea. The peculiar thing is that putting Rime above Obliterate reduced FPS but reducing KMRime as above increased it.

That may indicate that priority may be needed for the consumption of runes.

However, what may further complicate things is that this is contradicted when placing KMRime between Obliterate and BS; there is a reduction of FPS compared to the original priority.

Are you sure it's not looking at the heroic Grinder? [The Grinder] This one is 196.5 DPS + stats.

The mouseover on Rawr reports it as 178.8 DPS, like so :

There is a Rawr thread in the DK forums to ask the question. Weapon dps is a large factor in knowing if a weapon is worth using, and the Vis'kag is better than the Drinking Mace so there is something wrong with Rawr or your settings.