Possible it's due to the proc not being considered? Weapon dps is a large factor but considering all that Vis'kag has on it _is_ weapon dps, I could see a weapon being considered inferior to something else due to stats despite a large dps advantage.
After taking attack power into account(counting STR from the gem but not counting talent bonuses like Ravenous Dead) It's only an effective dps of 10 between vis'kag and the grinder. 48 agi 35 crit and 30 haste vs 10 weapon dps? Without considering the proc(2% chance of 2222 damage before armor, if I remember correctly) Vis'kag seems a bit lackluster.
Possible it's due to the proc not being considered? Weapon dps is a large factor but considering all that Vis'kag has on it _is_ weapon dps, I could see a weapon being considered inferior to something else due to stats despite a large dps advantage.
After taking attack power into account(counting STR from the gem but not counting talent bonuses like Ravenous Dead) It's only an effective dps of 10 between vis'kag and the grinder. 48 agi 35 crit and 30 haste vs 10 weapon dps? Without considering the proc(2% chance of 2222 damage before armor, if I remember correctly) Vis'kag seems a bit lackluster.
The proc rate is 4% when equipped in the mainhand, 2% when equipped in the offhand. But disconsidering the proc certainly isn't the way to look at this weapon, as the proc is essentially its replacement for stats. That being said... PvE-wise, it doesn't really make up for the lack of stats. I've done a bunch of testing on the simulator (and a smaller amount in the game), and the total dps you'll deal with Vis'kag in your mainhand is about equivalent to using a decently-itemized weapon a tier lower - or a well-itemized weapon (anything with good stats and a socket, pretty much) one-and-a-half tiers lower. Using it in your offhand is an even worse idea, thanks to the halved proc rate. The only place I'd recommend using it is in PvP, where the extra burst from the proc might come in handy, if that's to your taste.
Not every guild has an enhancer so i know two topguilds where DK's have often to apply IIT( i am in one of them, we had for two months not a single enhancer so two DKs needed to have at least a 2nd specc that provided IIT).
So it's absolutely necessary to discuss both speccs here.
And don't forget, that GoD cannot be used everywhere, eg Algalon or Faction Champions Hard.
You probably misread my post, I'm saying IIT specs are significant, not just because they have to supply IIT (that obviously includes those who have to supply it).
Also GoD can be used on Algalon just as well as on Faction Champions, if you only use GoD on single target tank and spank fights you will have a rather short list.
You probably misread my post, I'm saying IIT specs are significant, not just because they have to supply IIT (that obviously includes those who have to supply it).
Also GoD can be used on Algalon just as well as on Faction Champions, if you only use GoD on single target tank and spank fights you will have a rather short list.
I don't know how other guilds are doing this, but here i have to keep not using it so that the collapsing stars don't die as coincedent.
And for Faction Champions, well, we have been told to not spread our diseases because you destroy the cc of other people like fear of warlock, roots of druid, sheep of mage and so on. Yeah, i know there are some obscure loggs showing 17k DPS for FC, but that's not how most raids work. I have to be very careful not breaking the CC of other people.
If everyone has a tactic that has no problems with that, it's nice. Both cases were an example where uncontrolled disease damage isn't good at all, it might indeed cause wipes.
I figured that this was as good a thread as any to post this, because people kick around a lot of cool ideas for maximizing DW rotations:
I have created a new WoW simulator that has a lot of features that I think would be very useful for you guys at EJ. It is designed for any class, but currently we have only completed the DK section. You can find it at:
I actually started it before Kahorie's nice simulator popped up here, but had to shelf it for a while due to work. There are some new features in it that might be useful to the hardcore theorycrafters though, so we decided to finish off the DK section and make it available while we work on other classes that might be more in need of a high-quality simulator.
Features
1. It has a really flexible custom rotation editor. The user interface needs a little work still... but it's quite functional. This is probably the most interesting/unique feature for you guys who like to use simulators to tweak new rotations.
2. It can read your characters from the armory. Saves a lot of time setting up your character.
3. You can save your entire character, just a set of gear, a spec, or a custom rotation, and you can also share any saved item with your friends by importing/exporting as XML.
4. It has a searchable combat log, and a detailed visual summary of your simulation, broken down by ability.
We would really like to hear any feedback that people have, and I hope that someone here finds the site to be useful.
First impressions are great.
I ran one simulation with my own character and got strange values for autoattacks and DRW autoattacks, they're just too big, almost as they're multiplied x10.
edit: realized there are support forums, so I'll post there too.
I'm currently using the 3/13/55 spec for raiding and I'm having mixed feelings about blood presence or unholy presence.
During an encounter I'm using the standard rotation of ps > it > ss > bs > bb > dump ... ps > it > ss > bb (bs if earlier dump was longer than 2 dc) > bb > dump. My question comes in asking how long should I put the start of the next rotation off due to rp dumping? On several fights due to AMS aosking and druid heals I can almost average 3 dc and have even peaked at 4 a time or two. Normally I just watch my power auras to let me know it's time to start the next rotation so I don't lose desolation uptime. Or would it be better to adjust to a glyph other than GoIT?
DC is a very strong attack, so you should be using it as much as you can really while keeping your rotation going (thinking of diseases, keeping SoV up with SS, Deso with BS etc), usually that means you can get 3 DC's consistently with external rp gains. I'm not sure if this is the fully optimal way but it's how I do it. I haven't tried using UP in this case but I just don't see it beating BP-powered diseases and revitalize isn't really all that constant depending on the fight either, because 1 more DC does not delay the rotation a ton.
If anyone with more hard data knows better though, please correct me
DC is a very strong attack, so you should be using it as much as you can really while keeping your rotation going (thinking of diseases, keeping SoV up with SS, Deso with BS etc), usually that means you can get 3 DC's consistently with external rp gains. I'm not sure if this is the fully optimal way but it's how I do it. I haven't tried using UP in this case but I just don't see it beating BP-powered diseases and revitalize isn't really all that constant depending on the fight either, because 1 more DC does not delay the rotation a ton.
If anyone with more hard data knows better though, please correct me
I don't know hard data, but I agree with you. Fire off as mana DC as you can, as long as it doesn't cause any of your disease to fall off or your rotation and overall dps to suffer dramatically.
If you find yourself pressed for GCD's you can always skip the final blood rune in the rotation and just move on to dumping RP and starting over again with diseases. A GCD spent on a death coil is certainly better than one spent on a blood boil. (Assuming single target)
The unholy presence variant of the 3/15/55 spec is used only if your total haste is under 200 or so, they calculated the details in the other thread. Once your haste gets to a certain point its much better to use blood presence considering how many spells we are throwing out.
I noticed a peculiarly original result in priorities on emulator: If KM Rime proc is placed after BS, DPS is slightly increased; from 7788 to 7806 (8h emulation, 100ms, default DW gear setup, v.1.1.7.0, sigil of virulence, all bufs but draenei, spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft)
My main concern that started me toying with the priorities is that this Spec's Rime may be refreshed after a 2nd Obliterate and hence have a 'wasted' Rime. In that case using Rime before any Obliterate sounded like a good idea. The peculiar thing is that putting Rime above Obliterate reduced FPS but reducing KMRime as above increased it.
That may indicate that priority may be needed for the consumption of runes.
However, what may further complicate things is that this is contradicted when placing KMRime between Obliterate and BS; there is a reduction of FPS compared to the original priority.
Hey -- I noticed you asking about some tweaks around this rotation in the simulator thread too. The Team Robot WoW Simulator has a very flexible rotation editor that should enable you to try just about any complex priority/condition logic that you can think of. It should allow you to try out your custom rotation without having to wait for a developer to implement something special for you.
Are you sure a proc halves when swapped from MH to OH?
Have you some link to read?
Sorry if the question is dumb but i switched to meele since few weeks.
It's a general rule that proc rates are halved when on the offhand weapon, which most people just take for granted at this point. There are exceptions, though, such as talented procs specifically designed to only proc off offhand hits, but those are blatantly obvious and DKs don't have any. If you want a link, here's a rather outdated one from wowwiki on it: Proc - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft. No more reliable than the word of any player, but if someone else here wants to correct me on this, go ahead.
after switching from 3/51/17 to 3/13/55 I've noticed my dps increase substantially. And although I haven't xferred my DK to ptr (yet), I'm wondering with the UH changes (particularly SS) if the build will still be as potent as it is now (specially with T9 4pc being changed from what I saw). And would GoIT still be a preferred glyph for that build (extra dmg on a dot when diseases are at the top of my damage done seems like a good idea).
No matter how hard I tried with frost, I always seem to hit a wall in damage/dps in raids (I ran GoD) where as the unholy build seems to be scaling better (plus the rotation is much easier/and less demanding IMO).
The continued viability of any DW unholy build is contingent on the final changes to SS. As we stand now we know the 0/17/54 DC spam is out due to the icy touch glyph change, and depending on how much harder a 2handed SS will hit compared to a 1handed we might see the end of any viable unholy DW spec. Currently, 3/13/55 can compete because of how soft SS actually hits, in a nutshell the extra white damage and scaling via necrosis and BCB make up for the lower SS hits, making DW unholy on par or superior to 2H unholy.
As for a damage increase moving from a GoD spec to the 3/13/55 spec, remember that currently the 4 piece bonus is accounting for a massive chunk of damage when combined with wandering plague and crypt fever. This is probably why you are seeing such a gain with unholy, especially so if you don't have another Dk running unholy while you are frost. Basically, if no DK is bringing the 30% disease damage buff to the raid, you will pretty much always see a dps gain by going unholy, that bonus is just too good to miss.
Our best bet is to wait until we get solid data on SS and other changes, theorycraft how viable DW unholy will be, and go from there. There isn't much value in discussing how upcoming changes will effect our builds until we actually know what the changes are. If there are no viable DW unholy builds I'll remove that section from the OP and convert this thread into Frost only.
Why havnt the Unholy DW specc 15/0/56 been added to the Original Post? In the unholy dps thread i believe it was tested and confirmed to out-dps (single target) 3/13/55 if you are using the 4set tier9 set bonus. I myself have tested both speccs and have also come to the same conclusion, that 15/0/56 > 3/13/55 with 4set tier9 set bonus for single target dps (these tests were done both in-game and with Kahories DK simulator). If this has been mentioned and dismissed or anything in this humongous thread i apologize for taking up your time
Why havnt the Unholy DW specc 15/0/56 been added to the Original Post? In the unholy dps thread i believe it was tested and confirmed to out-dps (single target) 3/13/55 if you are using the 4set tier9 set bonus. I myself have tested both speccs and have also come to the same conclusion, that 15/0/56 > 3/13/55 with 4set tier9 set bonus for single target dps (these tests were done both in-game and with Kahories DK simulator). If this has been mentioned and dismissed or anything in this humongous thread i apologize for taking up your time
Perhaps I've missed this? A quick glance at the unholy OP shows that 15/0/56 is a 2handed spec. And to boot it states that 3/13/55 pulls ahead dps wise in BIS gear.
Perhaps I've missed this? A quick glance at the unholy OP shows that 15/0/56 is a 2handed spec. And to boot it states that 3/13/55 pulls ahead dps wise in BIS gear.
Did I miss something?
Nope, you haven't missed a thing. Going any further than 5 points into blood pretty much means that DPS spec will be 2H, since those talents don't scale well compared to Frost or Unholy talents for DW.
Now for some newer discussion: It appears that the new DPS sigil would be fully stacked during the first rotation as Frost, assuming it's 3 stacks of 73 strength and not 5 stacks of 44. However, the 2pT10 bonus gives OB some extra heft, so 0/53/18 Frost may very well still use Awareness for single target.
after switching from 3/51/17 to 3/13/55 I've noticed my dps increase substantially. And although I haven't xferred my DK to ptr (yet), I'm wondering with the UH changes (particularly SS) if the build will still be as potent as it is now (specially with T9 4pc being changed from what I saw). And would GoIT still be a preferred glyph for that build (extra dmg on a dot when diseases are at the top of my damage done seems like a good idea).
No matter how hard I tried with frost, I always seem to hit a wall in damage/dps in raids (I ran GoD) where as the unholy build seems to be scaling better (plus the rotation is much easier/and less demanding IMO).
It really depends on the Encounter you are doing. On every encounter where there are multiple targets your 3/13/55 spec will be far better as the damage will increase exponential with the 4pT9 bonus. Frost still outnumbers Unholy on Singletarget Fights, especially when you have long uptimes on your target.
Just looking at the changes that come with 3.3 makes me believe that UH DW will fall behind the 2h Version as the new SS will be a big part of Unholy DPS again.
It really depends on the Encounter you are doing. On every encounter where there are multiple targets your 3/13/55 spec will be far better as the damage will increase exponential with the 4pT9 bonus. Frost still outnumbers Unholy on Singletarget Fights, especially when you have long uptimes on your target.
Just looking at the changes that come with 3.3 makes me believe that UH DW will fall behind the 2h Version as the new SS will be a big part of Unholy DPS again.
So far in Toc25/ToGC and uld25 I've bested all my previous numbers as unholy vs. frost. Maybe it's just me then, the tight rotation in frost kinda screwed me over on some fights. I may dual dps spec frost dw as an offspec to test it out again to compare better.
Sadly you guys are misinformed, 15/0/56 is a DW specc. The specc to which you are refering to is 16/0/55. So any answer from a person with any actual knowledge would be greatly apreciated.
Check DW specc A, and take a closer look at the conclusions made about the 4part t9. Yes, i know the difference in dps is miniscule, but it is there. Also from my own experience 15/0/56 pulls ahead way more than just a few dps. This is all single-target dps, i am not talking about multiple target dps as 3/13/55 clearly pulls ahead there. Also i've chosen to spend the extra talent point in 15/0/56 in Imp Unholy Presence (instead of Corpse Explosion) which i believe helps alot in most fights, since there arent many where you can just stand still and smash buttons.
Also if your gear is anything similar to mine (severely hit overcapped) then 15/0/56 will be even greater as the 3% extra hit from Nerves of Cold Steel wont boost your dps by alot as it will only help towards your melee white hits.
Sadly you guys are misinformed, 15/0/56 is a DW specc. The specc to which you are refering to is 16/0/55. So any answer from a person with any actual knowledge would be greatly apreciated.
Check DW specc A, and take a closer look at the conclusions made about the 4part t9.
Also if your gear is anything similar to mine (severely hit overcapped) then 15/0/56 will be even greater as the 3% extra hit from Nerves of Cold Steel wont boost your dps by alot as it will only help towards your melee white hits.
I believe you are mistaking Nyhmsi, you are basing this on the single simulation tests of one person? here is his conclusion:
"Coming to my final conclusion – Believe it or not:
Best DW Spec: DWSpec C (3-13-55) – Best 2H Spec: 2H Spec A (16-0-55)"
When you "take a close look" at the 4Piece T9 results you notice that 3/13/55 did a whoping 15dps less on sigle target, but almost 100 dps more on multi target. (Due to black ice interacting with blood plague) Considering that the current hard content contains multi target dps, there would be no reason to spec 16-0-55. A 15 dps difference on a simulator is pretty much no difference at all, but this build is obviously inferior on multi target since a 100 dps difference is harder to explain away via RNG.
Sadly you guys are misinformed, 15/0/56 is a DW specc. The specc to which you are refering to is 16/0/55. So any answer from a person with any actual knowledge would be greatly apreciated.
Check DW specc A, and take a closer look at the conclusions made about the 4part t9.
Also if your gear is anything similar to mine (severely hit overcapped) then 15/0/56 will be even greater as the 3% extra hit from Nerves of Cold Steel wont boost your dps by alot as it will only help towards your melee white hits.
Considering almost every ToC fight requires sustained DPS on more than one target why wouldn't you choose the 3/13/55 spec which wins when there is more than one target and only lags behind on single target by 14 dps?
I have revised and edited my reply (that furthers advocated the use of 15/0/56) a little after/while you posted your comment Fargom. Yes you are correct there are alot of fights that include aoe, theres also some fights that dont. What i'd like to know is wether 3/13/55 beats out 15/0/56 on 2 or 3 targets also. As most of the time there aren't any more adds than that on any one boss ecounter excluding anubarak heroic 25man and faction champions. Also, as i now included in my previous reply is from my own experience my single target dps with 15/0/56 is way higher than 3/13/55, im talking about a 200dps.
10/12/09, 3:55 AM
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