Redknights

Nope I do frost dk because of melee haste to raid.

 

Lamperouqe

Using Kahorie's simulator, the IIT specs (0/53/18, 2/53/16 and 3/53/15) sim higher DPS with Virulence. When using Virulence Frost Strike becomes my #1 damaging attack with Obliterate and melee really close. I'm using my own stats and not the default character sheet so it could be different for you.
EDIT: I have 4pct9.

For GoD builds Awareness pulls ahead, but the difference in the sim isn't that big. When using Virulence with a GoD spec disease damage goes up a notch on the sim, but personally I pop everything at the start of the fight and apply diseases twice with about 9-12k ap and keep those diseases and won't refresh them afterwards waiting for the sigil to proc off of an Obliterate with several other procs at the same time, so the difference is more than what it is on the sim for me on Awareness' favor.

You can also change sigils midfight depending on the situation. Playing the GoD spec I started with Virulence on Anub to get the str bonus for my Howling Blasts when cleaving and when p3 started I changed to Awareness for the single target nuke.

 

NoPoint

Thanks for the response. I don't use IIT spec, I simply 3/51/17 with GoD.
I've yet to see a situation on my DK where obliterate is not far and wide ahead of any of my other abilities.
My rotation generally is opener: IT, PS, Oblit, BS, Pest, dump and normally:
Oblit, Oblit, BS, Pest, Dump (or KM HB then dump if it's proc'd, otherwise save rime for final GCD in dump cycle while hoping for KM), then with DR's Oblit, Oblit, Dump/KM HB, Oblit, dump

I definitely favor rune cd's in my rotation (over cautioning rp capping) and it seems to have given optimal DPS. I'm also using 4/8 t8 on my dk yet, I don't yet have the emblems for 4piece t9 so that may be part of it. I'll probably stick with awareness though then.

 

Lamperouqe

When playing the IIT spec with Virulence it's always either Melee, Obliterate or Frost Strike at the top of my damage on a single target. They are always really close though. I've been using Virulence for IIT for quite a while now since it sims higher DPS for my character, but if you have heavy ArP gear Awareness could still be better as IIT. I can't say for sure.

And back to GoD:
If you start like that you're gonna be keeping low AP diseases on the boss. (you didn't mention re-casting diseases?)
I start with IT-PS-BS-BS-PS-IT-RaiseDead-ERW-OB-OB-OB Dump, the reason I do this is because I'm trying to get FC, Greatness, Paragon and 2pct9 proc at the start before applying diseases, as they usually proc straight away. I also get the TS effect on Frost Fever with this opener. And I'm not too sure if ghoul works like gargoyle, snapshotting your stats when it's summoned, but that's where I like to put it on my opener thinking about that. I also pop a Potion of Speed at the start of every fight for the ghoul and stacking RI up fast and getting procs faster.

After that I go with the normal rot OB-OB-BS-Pest Dump OB-OB-OB Dump. If there is some idle time with some runes on cooldown I use Frost Strikes or KM+Rime inbetween, but not with the first part of the rotation (OB-OB-BS-Pest) because the pestilence won't make it in time if I do that.

 

NoPoint

you'll generally always have a GCD with deathrunes between your first 2 oblits and your 3rd so generally I try to fill that in with a KM rime proc or frost strike if not aligned for rime.

As for your question about not recasting IT for TS bonus, as I previously posted, I've recently done quite a bit of testing with it but have not seen any difference between FF ticks with or without it. I'm curious if this was hotfixed.

 

Lamperouqe

You'd still want to recast IT+PS when you get procs, so TS isn't exactly the point.
At the start of the fight I always get a big stack of str procs on my diseases using the starting method I posted.
Even if TS doesn't make a difference in disease damage, AP sure does.

Edit: I noticed how stupid it looks for me to quote your post when I'm straight below it.

 

Michaera

Whether or not there is a difference regarding TS, you'll still want to refresh diseases when you have all your ap procs going on at once (greatness, fc, 2pct9, that kinda thing) since, unless someone's proven otherwise lately, that ap bonus is applied when you use the strike and refreshed as you use pest. Just opening with it/ps and continually refreshing with pest won't add on the damage inc you should get from procs.

 

Eurk

Ive been playing around with Rawr to see if there are other weapon enchants that might prove useful for DW frost.

I was surprised to see Rawr stating that Cinderglacier would be around 100DPS more for me than Razorice for some reason, how can that be?

 

Lamperouqe

I don't use Rawr, but I did some quick testing with the latest version of Kahorie's sim and using CG instead of RI gave me around 200 less DPS on the sim.

 

Brachamul

When you use Pestilence glyphed with Disease, do the new disease take into account your buffs at that point, or do they refresh the exact same disease?

Because if the same disease is kept the entire time, i could see myself manually reapplying the diseases once Razorice is stacked, Fallen Crusader, Sigil of Virulence and 2pT9 procs are up, and using a potion, my orc racial and a trinket at the same time.

And then never let the disease come down.

Edit : I just thought i'd test this myself, and the results are clear. My disease ticks for 350 usually, and if i refresh it with pestilence while under cooldowns, it still ticks at 350. If however, i refresh it with cooldowns with icy touch or hungering cold, it ticks at 530. And the 530 can be prolonged via pestilence ad eternum.

Maybe this is worth a small mention in the OP

I just realized that people have been talking about this in previous pages... though it probably still is worth mentionning in the op :p

 

Breganth

Yes, it refreshes diseases at the same power they were applied at. Reapplication of diseases as your stats increase from procs is crucial to increasing your dps.

As someone posted a few pages back, there's a nice little mod called Bleedinghearts, that puts a little thermometer like application on your screen where the mercury rises with your attack power, so as you gain procs and your AP increases, you can easily keep track of it. Additionally, FF and BP icons show next to the meter at the AP level they were applied at. You can easily watch this and reapply at higher levels, maxing it out, and roll diseases for the duration of the fight (provided you're using GoD)

 

Lamperouqe

Yeah I'm using Bleeding Hearts too and I love it. It's a must have for GoD DK's imo.

I just got a little gear upgrade, so I simmed my new DPS with Kahorie's and I noticed that Virulence was doing 3 more DPS than Awareness in my 2-51-18 GoD spec. I was quite surprised. I think it's because I gained some crit, making 200 more strength in my diseases more valuable than before with them critting more. Though I think you need to be very lucky to have Virulence proccing along with all the other procs for your diseases for this to happen and also in shorter fights and fights that diseases drop off Virulence still isn't going to outperform Awareness. Even on the sim on a 100h patchwerk-like fight with an ideal raid setup it's still a matter of 3 DPS for me, so I don't think this is even worth mentioning. ()

 

Konata

Its always been in the original post. Very first line after the GoD rotation. Best time for this is usually right at the start of the fight after the 1st rotation. This is when you can proc greatness, 2p tier 9, sigil of virulence, Death Choice or w/e trinket you have and FC. You would miss out on a few stacks of RI, but most procs have high change but long ICD. So I find the beginning of the fight to be the best time for all your trinkets, sigil, 2p and sigil to proc all at the same time.

What I haven't tried yet is swapping mid fight to awareness after a virulence popped for Diseases. this costs 1 GCD but is a fair bit of a dps increase. Not sure whether it is worth it or not.

 

NoPoint

sorry for the side track / diversion, I wasn't implying you should not refresh during cd's, I was implying that off the pull until you proc them, I don't believe that TS requires 2x IT to be up any longer. Outside of trinket stacking (which usually happens within the first 15-20 seconds of the pull) it seems pretty impractical to just use a set "opening" rotation aside from when you have cooldowns stacked to reapply FF. It's somewhat unpredictable (to any degree of 'down to the gcd') of when you're going to have all trinkets stacked (assuming you're using chance on hit).
Though on that topic, it seems useful to me to use your normal rotation then ERW to re-apply diseases during procs, it seems most fluid.

 

Lamperouqe

Using an opening rot that reapplies diseases just before 15secs have passed is good imo, because the proc chances are so high on stuff like Greatness, Paragon and FC that they're generally up instantly or after a couple of seconds into the fight. Thinking about that I changed my set opening rotation a bit into:
IT-PS-OB-BS-BS-RaiseDead-ERW-OB-PS-IT-OB
If I ended the opening with OB-OB-PS-IT I noticed on the dummy that my procs were dangerously close to fall off before the last IT, so just to be safe I decided to reapply diseases before the last OB. In those 10-15 seconds I should've collected all the procs already with RI x5 and the Insane Strength Potion (finally found someone who can make it yesterday) I pop at the start will still be up. Even if something didn't proc on that opener like 2pct9, it was just bad luck and I most likely won't rise above that AP I had later in the fight. On multi-target fights where you use Virulence this opener also has a chance for the sigil to proc with 2 Obliterates before reapplying diseases and before procs start falling off.
Edit: Well I just prefer these kind of precalculated things over tracking my procs. ^^

 

Syrellia

Probably old information, but GoD Pest refreshes diseases of the main target, and apply the diseases with AP level of your main target to every other targets as well. So if you have a 11k AP diseases on the main target, regardless of your current AP, 11k AP diseases will be spread to every other mobs around it. This makes it very valuable for fights with more targets.

If you wanna do a little test for yourself, you can go to training dummies (the small ones, so u can spread diseases). Try applying diseases without proc to see the dmg (for me it's about 500 damage without any proc). Then proc things up, apply to the main target (for me it's 700 dmg per tick after proc), then tick off all the AP buff by right clicking on them. At this point, stop auto-attacking, and only use Pest. You should see that the dmg on all targets are 700 constant.

Rotational-wise, I find it easiest to do an initial rotation like this: IT>PS>OB>BS>BS>FS>FS>UA+any other trinket >PS>IT>OB>BT+OB>FS>FS then carry on with the normal rotation for highest diseases dmg. Usually 90% of the time you will get all procs in the 2nd PS>IT, but there are exceptions ofcourse (OB and BS don't proc like they should've). In that case use ERW to refresh diseases instead, otherwise save ERW for til mid-fight blood lust or refreshing your diseases after phase-change.

 

RADRyanD

Since Icecrown will be coming soon, going to ask something just to be sure.

I haven't had a chance to get onto the PTR since I have a very tight schedule, and looking through these last few pages I'm having a hard time finding any information whether the DW-Unholy variant will still be worthwhile in terms of DPS using 1-Handers or if it is just going to become better to drop them all-together for a 2-Hander. I'm a bit concerned because the new Scourge Strike seems more weapon-based than it's current state.

I use Unholy for only a few encounters currently, I'm usually a GoD Frost 3/51/17 for raiding. Reading how many of the encounters are add-switching encounters in Icecrown and there are many time-lapses of downtime waiting to get back into the fight on many of the encounters I'm fearful of the GoD Frost falling behind and would like to learn about a possible switch for tier transition since the likelihood of me getting a 258 2H before Icecrown is probably non-existent.

 

• frmorrison

GoD seems to be non-ideal with the constant add swaps and having to run from fire, however can you use a different glyph? I think that Blizzard is happy that more people are using 1H. Note all the other dps are affected with the target swapping as well.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Kaejin

GoIT is an alternative now that it's a 20% damage buff to FF. It wasn't really worth anything for frost when it was 10 RP on an IT, but I'd say it's quite a bit more valuable now.

 

deeshoey

Hey guys, long time reader, first time poster.

I've been doing some napkin math (but no real sim data since i run on a mac, lawl) and have recently started playing with 3/54/14; basically a hybrid of IIT and the GoD spec. I took points out of BCB and Necrosis to give Subversion, kept IIT, and I'm using GoD and the appropriate rotation. I went with this spec for the IIT because my guild's raids tend to very melee heavy, but we have no enhancement shaman and our previous frost dk has stopped playing. The -25% threat is pretty nifty too.

Is the lack of BCB really going to affect my dps that much? If anything I would expect (again, napkin math) my damage to be about the same because of the 9% increased critical chance to my Obliterates and Blood Strikes, and Necrosis and BCB only account for a very small percentage of my damage (about 5-6% total on XT last time I checked).


edit: I looked around the last 15 or so pages and didn't see any similar builds so don't flame me if this has been brought up before :o

 

Voldar14

I think you don't use IIT and GoD because GoD will not trigger the IIT effect, thus making it useless.

 

deeshoey

Ah, overlooked that. Makes sense. Would Subversion still be a relative dps loss compared to BCB?

 

Kaejin

BCB is generally worth more DPS than Subversion. So as long as you don't have threat problems, BCB is better.

 

NoPoint

I don't really think that'll be an issue. As previously stated, you retain the AP of your current diseases when you refresh with GoD, which means all you have to do is refresh while a mob is within range or make sure you can pest before your disease stack drops.

I can see this being somewhat of a pain for fights like NB heroic25 but it's not really that big of an issue to keep your diseases rolling. Tab, pest, tab back.

 

stormspirit

Has anybody actually tested where DW unholy will stand in relation to 2H with the SS changes. If so can you please post your findings? I would really like to determine whether i need to chase a 2H sooner rather than later.