yek366

We lost our enhance shaman recently, so I have adopted an IIT spec rather than GoD. Just after switching, I got a Death's Verdict. I wasn't sure which set of trinkets to use (Greatness/Mjolnir/Verdict) combined with which sigil (Virulence or Awareness). The most extreme difference was Greatness/Verdict + Virulence when I obtained ~20% FS/OB/White dps, and Verdict/Mjolnir/Awareness which 33% OB and 20% White/FS. As far as pure dps numbers, I was still getting highest actual dps (NOT SIM) with the OB based rotation by about 250-300 on single target. I know that this isn't what sims say, but this is actual dps in ToC.

 

• frmorrison

The SS changes aren't the "nail in the coffin" of DW Unholy, but rather the UB nerf and IT glyph nerf, so that means more focus is the SS damage and less focus on DC's damage, which adversely affects DW builds.

I wouldn't say 3.3 DW Unholy is dead (like if you had 245 DW weapons but 219 2H, even in 3.3 DW Unholy would be better), just isn't ideal.

It is just a guess, but I would expect 3.3 in Jan/Feb, so lots of time to find a new weapon or spec.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Necromir

It's really sad as that's a niche DW is losing. I enjoy having IIT and EP as two specs I can bounce back and forth between to help out the raid. Now if I want to give EP to the raid I have to compete with ret pallies, warriors, blood dks for 2h weapons.

I'm wondering if UP could save DW Unholy next patch but I think the losses are just too much. I would boost our melee a little more but still probably not enough.

 

Fargom

Just to clarify the unholy DW situation in 3.3:

0/17/54 DC spam (A build most people aren't using after obtaining 4 piece tier 9) This build is most likely going to be non competitive due to the IT glyph change, and the change from 20% to 10% on UB.

15/0/55 +1 DW (current top unholy spec) This is the spec of choice after 4 piece tier 9, and while the new SS is actually a huge buff, its simply more of a buff for the two handed version of this spec. The IT glyph change and UB change do not effect this spec more than a two handed version, as both builds generate the exact same RP and throw the exact same amount of DC's.

Everything is subject to change, however as the patch isn't live yet.

The main point to remember regarding unholy DW is why it works. You need to ask yourself with any unholy DW build, "Do the benefits outweigh the loss of strike damage?" Currently the answer is yes for both builds listed above. For 15/0/55 in 3.2.2 the difference in damage between a 1handed SS and a two handed SS is small enough to be overtaken by the extra white damage and extra necrosis/bcb damage from using two weapons. If the PTR SS goes live the difference will grow large enough to swap the answer of the "prime" unholy DW question, meaning there is no reason at all to use two weapons.

All that said, I don't see any reason to panic whatsoever. The play style is the exact same between 2h and DW unholy, so if you want to continue to bring ebon plaguebringer to your raid just grab a new weapon and switch two talent points. Hey, think of it as more justification to go for your guild's Shadowmourne.

 

consumerboy

I've running with a dual wield frost spec on my DK, see armory build below

The World of Warcraft Armory

I've been working my rotation, trying to build up my DPS raid numbers, but I'm continually at the bottom of the DPS pile. See some wws listed below

Wow Web Stats

I have seen slight improvements in my DPS with spikes up to 4k (more if I pad the numbers by killing whelps for instance in Onyxia) but raid boss averages down around 3.2k. My concern, what should my DPS average for a tank/spank style boss be?

There is some concern/discussion that I should switch to 2h blood spec like our primary DPS DK, but my question is centering around my 'skills'. Am I severely underperforming given my gear and spec? Is the blood rotation 'easier'? It sounds silly to ask it this way but being realistic I need to figure out the best way I can maximize my raid DPS given my gear and my personal keystroking skills.

thanks
Warmark

edit: you've answered my question, what should the optimal dps be given my gear and spec. Thanks. Your simulation results illuminate the areas for improvement. Thanks again.

 

Bullshifter

@Warmark- There are a number of things you can probably do to improve your dps, even with your current gear and glyphs choices, which aren't optimal, though you probably know that. I just plugged your stats and spec/glyphs into Kahorie's simulator and got:

Ability| Total| %| Landed| Hit%| Crit%| Miss%| Average|
Obliterate| 557998445| 27.8| 75922| 51.4| 45.6| 3| 7349.6|
FrostStrike| 491225521| 24.5| 68583| 47.5| 49.5| 3| 7162.5|
MainHand| 271074954| 13.5| 158613| 51.5| 28.8| 19.7| 1709|
OffHand| 150439549| 7.5| 158802| 51.6| 28.9| 19.6| 947.3|
HowlingBlast| 148152697| 7.4| 21079| 39.7| 58.9| 1.5| 7028.4|
FrostFever| 105533829| 5.3| 108171| 100| 0| 0| 975.6|
BloodStrike| 85572628| 4.3| 31931| 65.9| 30.9| 3.2| 2679.9|
Necrosis| 84347492| 4.2| 317415| 100| 0| 0| 265.7|
Ghoul| 48240283| 2.4| 84197| 87.1| 12.9| 0| 572.9|
BloodCakedBlade| 43067722| 2.1| 92817| 96.8| 0| 3.2| 464|
Vis'kag| 13712241| 0.7| 6265| 32.1| 67.9| 0| 2188.7|
IcyTouch| 3827397 | 0.2| 1183| 43.7| 55.1| 1.3| 3235.3|
Raz| 1588020 | 0.1| 158802| 100| 0| 0| 10|
Horn| 0 | 0| 14732| 100| 0| 0| 0|
DPS 5569
Total Damage 2004.78m in 100h
Threat Per Second 4349
Generated in 73s
Template: Warmark's talents 0-53-18
Priority: Glyph of Howling Blast Frost Rotation
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Awareness
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader / Razorice
Pet Calculation: True

Keep in mind the dps figure from the simulator is typically a theoretical best, where you perform flawlessly, don't have to move, etc. I haven't figured out how to get a true "Howling Blast Glyph" priority going for the sim, where it doesn't use Icy Touch, but rather only applies Frost Fever with Howling Blast, but it should be close enough to show that there is some potential there to increase your dps by refining your rotation.

Some issues for you: You are using Glyph of Howling Blast, so I assume you are doing the single disease frost thing, which really isn't good anymore. You have very low ArP, and relatively high haste, which would be more suited for Unholy than DW Frost. You have tanking bracers. I would strongly encourage going to a more normal (now) 2 disease rotation, and replacing the Howling Blast glyph. You don't appear to have worked towards any set bonuses. These are just a few thougts for you.

edit- clarity

 

Ismail

His parse link shows he isn't using a single disease rotation so the HB glyph is a waste.

On the topic of HB rotation simulation the Team Robot Simulator allows a pretty good HB rotation to be set up. With Kahorie's Simulator and Warmark's gear and spec and the basic frost rotation I got 6572 dps with Team Robot I got 6412 dps with the basic frost rotation and 6407 dps with single disease frost with HB set up for use on KM Rime and keeping FF up.

Ability| Total| %| Landed| Hit%| Crit%| Miss%| Average|
Obliterate| 572493446| 24.2| 64883| 51.3| 45.7| 3| 8823.5|
FrostStrike| 555178188| 23.5| 70324| 48.4| 48.6| 3| 7894.6|
MainHand| 304206291| 12.9| 154461| 54| 28.9| 17.1| 1969.5|
OffHand| 168604491| 7.1| 160245| 54.1| 28.8| 17.1| 1052.2|
FrostFever| 124258054| 5.3| 111869| 100| 0| 0| 1110.7|
BloodPlague| 116719918| 4.9| 111587| 100| 0| 0| 1046|
BloodStrike| 105367072| 4.5| 32538| 66| 30.9| 3.1| 3238.3|
Necrosis| 94558149| 4| 314706| 100| 0| 0| 300.5|
HowlingBlast| 81801163| 3.5| 9051| 23.4| 76.6| 0| 9037.8|
IcyTouch| 71512809| 3| 18560| 41.5| 58.5| 0| 3853.1|
BloodCakedBlade| 65077201| 2.8| 92043| 96.8| 0| 3.2| 707|
Ghoul| 47385834| 2| 82348| 87| 13| 0| 575.4|
PlagueStrike| 45026610| 1.9| 18559| 60.8| 36.2| 3| 2426.1|
Vis'kag| 11971937| 0.5| 6079| 32.1| 67.9| 0| 1969.4|
Raz| 1762695 | 0.1| 160245| 100| 0| 0| 11|
Horn| 0 | 0| 290| 100| 0| 0| 0|
DPS 6572
Total Damage 2365.92m in 100h
Threat Per Second 5158
Generated in 60s
Template: Warmark
Priority: Frost
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Awareness
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader / Razorice
Pet Calculation: True

 

consumerboy

cleared for sanity reasons

 

Ariseundead

I don't know where I am screwing up at, I am doing 4K dps in 5 man's. I am not saying that is great but more of a baseline, then when I do 10 or 25 man raids I only go up just a tad. I was PISSED last night that I was only doing 3500 dps in 25 man in TOC, I mean are you FREAKING kidding me with my gear. Please disregard Lionhead Slasher it dropped last night and nobody wanted so I picked it up to try it out. I DW Raging Deathbringer with FC on MH/OH, normally. I am wodnering should I just go ahead and switch to unholy, I was unholy ever since playing the game but switched to frost DW when the hybrid build was the rave. I really need to know what dumb move I am possibly doing that is causing my dps to be such trash. Could group makeup be the problem, I had two DK's, pally, and rogue in a group with me. I don't know I just know that I am doing something REALLY stupid or perhaps many stupid things combined.

Lionhead Slasher:
[Lionhead Slasher]
Raging Deathbringer:
[Raging Deathbringer]

Armory Lite - The WoW Armory Alternative: Ariseundead of Nazgrel

WoW Heroes seems to have my information from when I am DW my axes.
[http://wow-heroes.com/]

 

Breganth

You're using the Glyph of Disease, but not really the spec for it. Go back to page one and use the template for the GoD spec. It will help you. GoD eliminates the need to reapply diseases and allows for a more obliterate heavy rotation. 3 points in Subversion = 9% crit to obliterate (that's roughly 409 critical strike rating). That's a pretty big bump to what's normally about 30-33% of your overall single target damage for only 3 talent points.

You should also look into putting a point into unbreakable armor

 

• frmorrison

The only stuff is good advise, but I disagree with this. If someone can only do 3k dps, then learning how to use /blood tap /UA is a more advanced skill.

It is better to focus on getting the normal talents and its Oblit heavy rotation down first.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Invaishir

@Ariseundead: Are you main-handing the Lionhand Slasher? It seems way too fast to be used with Frost DW, would you happen to have a slower 232 weapon you could use? If not you could try putting your Deathbringer in your mainhand. Also, why no Razorice on your offhand it's a lot better than the second FC. And as Breganth pointed out, you're using GoD when you're not specced for it. My suggestion would be to pick either 0/53/18(or 3/53/15 if you have threat problems) w/ GoIT or go with the GoD spec from the OP.

 

vdgmasterx

I know there has been lots of testing on Sigil of Awareness vs Sigil of Virulence and that the general consensus is that Awareness is king for single target, and Virulence should be used otherwise.

However when I ran Kahorie's sim (which tests a single-target fight) using multiple gear sets, my DPS was always higher with Sigil of Virulence. Is this just a fluke? Or is there really a point gear-wise when Virulence overtakes Awareness, regardless of the # of targets? What Sigil should I be using?

 

Sakuratei

There has indeed been extensive math done on this question, and the conclusion was that they are so close to each other that any small mistake in the calculations or any variation of the encounter could tip the scale between the two. As an example all the math is based on landing a set amount of Obliterates within 20 seconds on the target to gain maximum potential of Awareness, but if you break off from the target right after applying diseases with the effect of Virulence applied, you would gain more from having Virulence equipped than having Awareness equipped.

The uncertainity ofthe issue is why the current math hasn't been represented in the main post, and until more extensive math is presented that covers various scenarios it will probably remain so. However, there's not much reason to do such math at this point as 3.3 will probably include a new sigil for the next tier which (hopefully) will be better than both Awareness and Virulence.

So in short, use the sigil which you feel would be more damage. The difference will vary from encounter to encounter, probably even between attempts of the same boss, but in nearly all cases the sigils will be so close together that it matters little for your total DPS which sigil you use.

 

• Darkside

Perusing World of Log's damage ranking page (World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis) you can see that for predominantly single target fights, those doing the most damage tend to be using the Sigil of Awareness. Likewise, on fights like Anub or Jarraxxus, Virulence pulls ahead due to the quantity of AoE present. This data backs up the mathematical analysis done many pages back when 3.2 first landed.

While this is not the absolute best way to determine the best sigil for a given situation, it is incredibly useful as a supplement to the mathematics and theory behind an idea.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

Konata

I would say the sigil depends on the spec you are using.

Awareness for GoD
Virulence for IIT

I have used both builds, and that seems to give me the best results with them

 

• Darkside

Awareness works just fine for an IIT build (fight permitting). In fact, many of the highest parses on Twins/Beasts are from people using Awareness and an IIT build. Furthermore, if you're going to be rocking GoD, you'll probably want to use SoV at the start of the fight to get an extra 500 AP or so for your diseases before switching over to SoA.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

necrochaos

MY DK is just hitting 80, and I've been looking at this DW build (courtesy of Skeletonjack.com, original post

DW Unholy Oblit Build – 0/18/53
Rotations
PS – IT – BS – BS – OB – RP // OB – OB – OB – RP
Priority System: Diseases (BP > FF) > MaxRP-Dump > OB > BS > DC. It is important to understand that Rune abilities always take priority over RP abilities. The one exception to Rune > RP is if you will go over your RP cap (thereby losing potential RP), then immediately fire off a RP ability.
Always keep the 2SR in mind however, as you will want to fire off DC’s and HoW between GCD’s when possible. Don’t just RP dump at the end of a rotation.
Runeforge: Rune of the Fallen Crusader / Rune of the Fallen Crusader
Sigil: Sigil of Awareness
Weapon Speeds: Slow/Slow
Presence: Blood
Notes: FC/RI is a far superior Runeforge setup for dps in any encounter where you’re basically sitting on one target for over a full minute. However when you get into constantly swapping targets, FC/FC becomes superior for it’s lack of needing to stack debuffs on a target. Basically this comes down to the type of encounters you will be facing.


So does this make since? Most of the DW Unholy specs use the 17/54 DC dumps. But, the build above seems to have less of a learning curve. Thoughts?

 

Tyyphoid

Long time reader first time poster. So has anyone read the DK post about the SS change called "Sometime Around Midnight "? They are saying that the SS change is a "huge, huge" buff. I have not tested the SS change as dw as of yet but if it is a buff then I would imagine it would be a buff all around DW or 2H so with that being said it seems taht the DW unholy builds will still be in. Can anyone say thats true or not??? I've been DW Frost for a long time but have been interested in making the unholy change.

 

Neckron

The main reason its not much of a buff for DW is because SS is based on Weapon Dmg so it will hit alot harder with a 2 Hander compared to a 1 Hand weapon which is why people are looking at going 2H for unholy now rather than the previously competitive DW. See the below quote from a few posts up as a good example:

 

kelben

I was talking with the author of the rogue posion swapper mod, he adapted it for a DK so it would swap a razor ice weapon around. However, the results were not exactly what I was expecting. There was no DPS change with swapping a weapon in to maintain the Razorice stack and then going back to a FC weapon. I was very surprised, I'm still testing it to see how it works but is there any thoughts on the matter?

Haste is the devil...

 

• Darkside

It's unlikely to be a DPS boost since DW DKs are GCD locked. Rogues can take advantage of small pauses in their energy capped rotation to swap differing weapons in and out, something we cannot take advantage of. Furthermore, the DPS gain from swapping runeforges is likely to be minimal at best, even if we were not GCD locked.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

kelben

What is the time frame that razor ice has to be up in order for it to out perform FC x2? and is there any real use in cinderglacier?

Haste is the devil...

 

Sakuratei

Another point is that rogues have Shiv to guarantee an application of Deadly Poison when they need it, Razorice can fall off even in situations when you are DPS'ing full time on the target.

 

MikeMo

I agree with what you say but not your fight choice. Jarraxxus adds do not seem to stay up long enough to justify a switch to Virulence. At least not with how Pals does the fight (kills the adds quickly with ranged and melee stays on the boss). I could try Virulence next time and see how that works but adds staying in range to get diseases even spread to them is pretty hit and miss so it's hard to predict. I believe I am #5 for hard mode and #13 for easy and I've almost always ran Awareness on that fight for those reasons. Mileage will vary though.

-edit- After looking through the armory of some of the other players I appear to be one of the few running GoD/Awareness. I've went through the top 15 and those that you can still look up all run non-GoD specs and most appear to be running virulence sigil.