Syrellia

FC used to be 1 ppm and with 30% increase in strength. This made the FC/FC the best combination for personal DPS, because you gain significantly more uptime than 1 FC alone. The overwrite effects is minimal.

FC after nerf is 2 ppm, with 15% increase in strength. This is a "stealth" nerf for any dual wielder, because of overwrite effect this reduce the effect of DW FC/FC significantly. For 2H user you should notice that the overall effect is the same. Ofcourse this is PvE-wise. The old FC was much better for PvP due to burst.

Rune of RI is currently 5% frost dmg increase on live (1% each stack up to 5 times). It used to be a raid buff but it's no longer a raid buff now.

CG is 1 ppm. It used to proc on a flat % but it's changed to ppm recently.

That should sums up the change right now.

Regarding what I meant by the AP & Buffs scaling in raid: I meant the difference between the scaling of skills. For example, when quoting dummy test values, you guys often quote:

21% comes from OB damage
30% comes from FS damage
etc.

However, in raid-setting the proportions will definitely be different. Therefore please publish your maths, graphs, whatever to support your data, or at the very least publish the data in raid-setting if possible, not basing every "guestimation" on dummy data.

Cinderglacier increases Frost Damage as well, so it's safe to assume that you can work it on Frost Strikes. The problem now is if we could confirm it would work for both Frost Strikes hit using 1 charge, or does it use up 2 charges? If it uses up 2 charges, then CG is pretty much pushed out table for any build using Frost Strikes. FCx2 seems to be pretty solid (potentially increase FC uptime from 60% --> 90%), while RI is very situational at best. Currently on live I noticed FC uptime increases from 60% --> 80% by changing from FC MH to FCx2, hence it's very possible you can achieve 90%+ uptime in the coming patch since your offhand will get more proc from its own instant strikes as well.

*Edit: I used to run with 1 FC on main hand 2.5 speed, and I got anywhere from 40% to 75% uptime for FC depending on how lucky I was. Switching to FCx2 I get reliable 75% - 85% on Live. 2H user DKs using 3.6 - 3.8 speed can get reliable 70%+ FC uptime. For Frost 2H DKs, since Frost Strike, their biggest RP dump, is a strike, they can get 85%+ - 90%+ uptime. I'm guessing new DW Frost Strike DK will get more reliable uptime on main hand than I could, but we'll see.

 

Bloody_sorcerer

My biggest issue with FC+FC is that they do not stack, and glancing briefly at some WMO reports from vezax, many DKs are having Unholy Strength uptime of >75%, into the 80% range in many cases, vastly devaluing the second FC.

In regards to FC PPM, it was 1 PPM (same as original crusader) pre-nerf, and the patch notes (iirc) explicitly stated that the effect was halved, but the chance was doubled, which supports my personal target dummy testing.

 

Konata

From patch 3.1 notes:
-Rune of Razorice now affects Frost damage done by the death knight only, but stacks up to 10%.


Tool tip still says 5% though. Which is correct I am not sure, but they haven't nerfed it for 3.2 in the notes.

To Sylari, why wouldn't CG be competitive now? You could have used it for FS or HB anyways. Maybe DC, but FS hits harder than DC anyways. For bosses with adds or what not you need to burn down, CG on HB is very nice.

 

Sylari

RI is reliable and provides a steady overall boost.

CG would have been potentially viable with a DC spam build simply because a deep unholy subspec wouldn't be casting frost spells enough.

 

Erekose

The reason that CG is not good for PvE is that over the course of most boss fights the cumulative advantage given by FC or RI is superior. I ran extensive tests in 3.1 on different enchants on the dummies and also in a raid setting, and CG was the lowest every single time, even with prioritized FS/HB use..I have done no testing in 3.2 yet however I see no reason why the relative power of CG would have changed.

 

Konata

Well I just got on the PTR and, CG is bugged in the PTR, and RI does 10% for 10 stack on PTR.

CG - nothing is using up the CG procs on PTR for me tried using HB, IT, FS, DC nothing would consume it, and it would actually overwrite the CG buff quite a few times. I had it overwrite on the PTR about 2-3x a minute.

RI - seems to stack to 10 now for some reason.


Edit:

further testing with CG, it is applying the damage buff to IT, HB, FS and probably DC. It just isn't being consumed. But for my 5~ min of testing CG refreshed itself 2-3 times a min. It basically never wore off on me since it was never consumed but kept refreshing.

I reported both issues to blizz already.

 

Bloody_sorcerer

The CG bug is doubtlessly related to all of the proc-related bugs on the current PTR build; hopefully, the functional razorice is not.

 

urotas

Threat of Thassarian has some weird side effects when it comes to missing, being parried or dodged with one of your strikes. The mainhand and offhand attacks on strikes can be parried separately, but only the mainhand attack counts for determining rune power and rune usage. For example

If both attacks are parried -> You get the rune/runic power back normally
If offhand attack is parried -> Rune/Runic power is used up normally
If mainhand attack is parried -> You get the rune/runic power back, but still get the offhand damage.

Each strike being doubly parriable does have some annoying implications for possible dual-wield tanking on any mob that has parry haste, as it will further increase the gap in parries dual-wield gets compared to 2H-tanking.

 

Xentik

Looks like we need some testing for CG charges on FS and we also should test whether Runeforges proc from the OH with ToT (it makes sense that it would, but stranger things have happened).

Looking at CG numbers again with 2ppm (assuming ToT OH procs) and only using them on Frost Strikes with 12 FS/min gets us a 6.7% dps increase (4/12*20%, although the possibility of proc overlaps actually lowers this slightly). RI would similarly buff all the FS within that period by 5%.

Doing calculations on the benefit of increased FC uptime to FS gives a dps boost of 2.5% for uptime of 85% to a dps boost of 3% for 95% uptime (at 9000AP. -0.25% at min and max for each 1000AP less). This means for CG to beat increased FC uptime that a ~3.7-4.2% DPS increase to FS must be larger than the dps boost from increased FC uptime, which seems unlikely when you consider it buffs everything.

Edit: If RI stays 10% then it may be a viable contender vs OH FC, although in order to get an estimate of how competitive it is we'll need some raid dps data from the PTR.

 

Syrellia

Just a side note: FC uptime you've seen on 2h users is significantly more than FC uptime on main-hand only 1h, or off-hand with strikes. This is due to the speed difference (2.7 speed compared to 3.8 speed) on those weapons. So we're not talking about 10% uptime difference here - but actually about 30% to 40% uptime difference between DW-ers using FCx1 and FCx2

Also, a funny thing is, 2% increase in damage of rune of razorice will also modify the strike damages as well, so you should get some extra damages out of the rune.

 

Sakuratei

According to the tests I made (post on page 4), dual crusader had very high overlapping (refresh at 7 secs left or higher) and 95%+ uptime, FC+RI had 75% uptime of FC.

 

Syrellia

That is what to be expected (according to my old calculation). However it's not "reliable" as in, in some 2 minutes duration, you get up to 80% of FC uptime, while in some 2 minutes duration you get only 40% FC uptime. Especially during mobile fights, I find this to be really unreliable. I checked several parses while dualwielding FC/Berserking, and the frost DK running the same fights always have his FC uptime at 80%+, while I get anywhere from 40% - 80% of FC uptime (strangely enough my Berserking, which procs at 1ppm on offhand, gives a reliable 30% - 40% uptime).

Switching to FCx2, I get reliable 70%+, sometimes up to 90%+ uptime for my FC, so I'm quite happy as of now (on Live ofcourse).

So yes, in a stationary fight where you just stood still and fight like fighting patchwerk, FC+RI may pull forward. However, if you fight things like Razorscale, Mimiron, Freya, Yogg-saron etc, the goal is to proc FC as soon as you touch a mob at start, and as soon as you touch a mob right after breaking off to run around to ensure best FC uptime. CG also comes in handy here since it doesn't drop off, and combine it with Howling Blast for AoE make it particularly useful.

With these analysis, all 3 of the runeforges are very situational. Picking which one may be up to your own taste, if the dps difference between them is only a few %.

 

kidpreacher

So I had a buddy do a test during 10 man OS 1D with Dual FC. Slow/Slow, FC up time was 59 percent, for the entire instance. He didn't split it to give me it for the boss fight, but 59 percent seems to be a pretty low number for Dual FC.

Going to do more tests later, but it seems the refresh overlap is more prevalent in a raid environment than on a dummy test. If this is the case 60 percent seems pretty low for Dual FC. If RI/FC gives you lets say in the neighborhood of 50-55 percent uptime on FC. The 10 percent increase in frost damage would give RI the bump ahead in DW builds.

No testing done on CG, mainly because I don't like the PPM of it or the 20 percent increase for only two attacks which if testing proves that each hand procs the damage boost it would be an even worse rune.\

Editing Note: The test was done by a buddy of mine who is new to frost dps so his rotation was a little sloppy, but he was a decent blood dk previously. Therefore the 10 percent difference between previous posts and this one could be on account of a lack of hit rating and a lack of keeping the rotation solid.

 

Syrellia

60% is extremely low figure for FCx2. I'd ask these questions:

• What method of measuring did he use? If he used some addons to count proc then did he use it on trash as well? Combat log is the best method. (If he used it, could you ask him to provide the log so we can analyze please?)
• What kind of stats did he have?
• What kind of spells/strikes did he use? Did he try to actually single target the drakes or did he try to DnD + Howling Blast the adds? Sometimes people get freaked out during those mobile fights and just keep concentrating on adds instead of actually "melee-ing" anything.
• What presence did he fight in?

FCx2 gives him 60% uptime of FC, then you can't expect RI/FC to give him 55% of FC uptime. These things can't be simply "guessed" like that. It's the same fight, but it's only 1 test, had he done things a little bit differently they could've turned out different as well.

*EDIT: (on LIVE) recent Sarth 2D with Dual FC >> Click Here then switch to 'Buff Gained' <<, without offhand strikes and without strikes RP dump (FC), I get 74.2% uptime of FC. It's hard to believe that with extra added PPM from RP dump strikes & offhand strikes I could get any less.

 

Kueson

Post Retracted, 6 in the morning, and I noticed what I said was on this very page. >.>

 

Sakuratei

Some of you mention live parses for FC uptime. The main reason why I find this inappropriate is because Threat of Thassarian will make all strikes hit with both weapons. Secondly, I assume you are testing with an Unholy dw build, which does not only use a non-strike runedump, but also favors a fast offhand (and sometimes a fast mainhand as well) which changes the PPM proc chance values for strikes. With ToT, we will be looking for slow weapons in both hands (at least the research so far suggests) and with every strike using both weapons, it means that procs from strikes will be numerous, hence the massive overlap of FC.

I agree with the main concensus though, 2x FC is the way to go in multitarget/movement fights such as Freya, Mimiron, Razorscale and FC/RI or RI/FC (FC on slowest wep for more procs off strikes) for stationary fights where you don't risk RI falling off.

 

Laurelai

I agree with Syrellia. Using Proculas on the PTR - Autoattacking a dummy for 5 mins I got a 60% uptime on FC:
[Torment of the Banished] MH - FC
[Hailstorm] OH - RI (Stacks to 10 on the PTR. I wonder if it's just an old version of the spell.)

 

zeheres

No, it has been fixed eventually.

 

Syrellia

I just showed my live parse to clear up the "60% - 55%" guesses made above. Also all the stuffs you found inappropriate was mentioned as well. I don't see why current UH build could favor a fast mainhand/offhand for ppm mechanic. Given that it works like it's mentioned on WoWWiki, the proc rate would be the same for either slow or fast offhand, while mainhand will gain a little bit more out of instant strikes so it actually favors a slow mainhand for more proc.

Regarding BCB, it does not favor fast OH for proc. With no haste factored, if you hit 60 times per minute, you get 18 strikes of BCB, and each strike has 2/60 chance of proc FC given 2ppm. That will give you the real ppm of (60+18)*2/60=2.6ppm. If you hit 30 times per minute, you get 9 strikes of BCB, and each strike has 2/30 chance of proc FC given 2ppm. That will give you real ppm of (30+9)*2/30=2.6ppm. With haste & miss factored in, the ppm will stay equal for fast & slow.

I would imagine, with ToT, even without BCB, the abundant in strikes of both hands will push the FC procs much further. The more it procs, the better % uptime reliability it gets. I don't believe that the % uptime with FCx2 can be any less than DW Unholy on Live. For FCx1 however, without BCB, but with strikes RP dump, you may get somewhere equal to or slightly different (up/down) from the FCx1 on Live, which is highly unreliable and low.

 

Sythral

Just wanted to throw in my two cents as it appears that this has come up in an above post. Currently with the proc bug in place Icy Talons does not proc for me but KM does. It also appears that diseases are sometimes bugged and sometimes not; at points my diseases were ticking for extremely low. I can also confirm that RI stacks to 10 now.

EDIT: It would appear that Icy Talons does proc now, I just logged on and it works.

 

Sakuratei

I never said that Unholy favors fast weapons because of PPM mechanics, I just had a look in the Unholy DW thread and looked up their max DPS WWS links and all of them had a fast offhand, and half of them a fast mainhand as well. Obviously there's somehting else in their spec that favors fast weapons, but I never said it was PPM.

My point from that was that since they use fast weapons, their uptime is a bit lower due to PPM mechanics.

My own testing shows 1xFC at average 75% uptime, and 2xFC at 95% uptime, 2x with a very high buff overlap (refresh at 7s or more remaining on the buff). The question is if that extra uptime is worth the overlapping and if it will outperform RI on either weapon, especially considering the news about RI being 10%.

 

dr_AllCOM3

I used your numbers for my sheet. RI is better, even at 5%. So RI should be better in almost any worthwhile fight.

DocsDK UI
Simulator

 

kidpreacher

Okay, I am not sure why we are still testing on Fast OH, I believe someone did the math earlier and due to consistent testing it came out that Slow/Slow is a 3-4 percent dps increase across the board. AS for RI it doesn't matter which hand it is on the proc is based on MH.

I am unable to get to testing this week due to raiding schedule, but can we get a test on 15/55 plus 1 vs 53/18. I am really against Necrosis and BcB, the scaling on it is horrible compared to Dark Conviction and Bladed Armor which are flat across the board increases. I don't believe anyone has seen larger than 5-7 percent of their dps accounted for by those two talents.

Now this would be nice if it was a 5-7 percent increase in dps compared to Blood spec, but from simple Dummy testing I found the Blood tree to be a larger increase in DPS per point spent.

In the end, I think that we will find that both the math and the raid tests will prove that a 15/55 plus 1 or a 12/55/3 will be the two top dps specs depending on hit rating. I am sad to see the loss of Howling Blast Glyph rotations, but have the feeling it will be a larger dps increase.

The biggest thing I have ran into is Blood or Unholy presence (the numbers change each time I test with unholy leading each time, but only marginally) and whether RI or CG will work better on our OH (though it seems it may be situational).

 

• Darkside

While the sims might show then in close competition, in a realtime fight with any downtime/movement component Unholy is likely to be superior. This is in part due to the movement speed bonus, but largely because of the additional time to you get for your runes to recharge while not actively engaged in fighting.

<XI|> if your dog barks do you debate the philosophical reason behind him barking
<XI|> no
<XI|> you say shut up idiot

 

Edimasta

Well, honestly I think this is like "not very well said" - Why?
I remember that with the start of WotLK and the first weeks of DW there were also so many voices telling that UP is so great and you run so fast, in movement encounters its absolutely superior... same for some twohand builds months later.

And know what? I never saw any high DPS DK playing with UP. Or heard of it. So I would just say, screw it ^^
With all the Raidbuffs and Procs, BP is always superior because UP only is steady until you reach the top of it - after that point it is not scaling any further nor doing more DPS. I was able to see that in many tests I did in Naxx. Using UP my DPS got stuck very fast, then I switched into BP and it kept boosting upwards...