I agree with what you say but not your fight choice. Jarraxxus adds do not seem to stay up long enough to justify a switch to Virulence. At least not with how Pals does the fight (kills the adds quickly with ranged and melee stays on the boss). I could try Virulence next time and see how that works but adds staying in range to get diseases even spread to them is pretty hit and miss so it's hard to predict. I believe I am #5 for hard mode and #13 for easy and I've almost always ran Awareness on that fight for those reasons. Mileage will vary though.
-edit- After looking through the armory of some of the other players I appear to be one of the few running GoD/Awareness. I've went through the top 15 and those that you can still look up all run non-GoD specs and most appear to be running virulence sigil.
I think it depends a lot on the methodology and composition of your raid group. If you tend to clump all the adds around the melee and just burn them down, Virulence will likely win out. If you tend to let them spread out and just avoid the novas, you're probably better off with Awareness. If you are heavy on AoE, Awareness, light Virulence etc. etc. So far the data indicates that Virulence is better for nearly all people, but like you said, you can make Awareness work.
Taking the thread in a slightly different direction, I wanted to share a macro that I've been using for a while now that's helped improve my AoE dps.
This will cast Howling Blast on your mouseover target if you have one and defaults to your primary target if you aren't mousing over anything. I found it especially helpful for heroic Anub since very often the 2-3 of the adds will be outside the HB damage radius if Anub is used as the primary target. While a focus macro can be used for similar effect, I found this to be easier in practice as it removes the hassle of setting your focus each time a new wave spawns. I simply rest my mouse over the add clump and the macro does the rest. It also works well for fights like Jarraxxus, when you want to center the HB radius on the center of the infernal clump without disrupting your cycle on the boss.
What kind of DPS are you typically seeing as Frost on Anub? I originally tried to stick with Frost for the fight but found my DPS to be very lacking so I made my offspec Unholy aoe (which I've really grown to love for some fights). I guess it wouldn't be that great for getting adds down but if you are in a guild that isn't having problems with adds it may not matter and being DW frost for the leeching swarm phase would be very nice indeed.
And thanks for the macro, that looks like it will be rather handy.
What kind of DPS are you typically seeing as Frost on Anub? I originally tried to stick with Frost for the fight but found my DPS to be very lacking so I made my offspec Unholy aoe (which I've really grown to love for some fights). I guess it wouldn't be that great for getting adds down but if you are in a guild that isn't having problems with adds it may not matter and being DW frost for the leeching swarm phase would be very nice indeed.
And thanks for the macro, that looks like it will be rather handy.
seems like a good place to start. Not that much behind UH on HM apparently.
I was asking Darkside for his personal numbers. I run Unholy aoe as my offspec simply because I wasn't seeing even remotely close to the personal numbers I was seeing some DK's getting as Unholy so I built an Unholy set/spec and my damage went up significantly (2000-3000+).
I also don't trust WMO since hardly anybody uses it any longer and most of their ladders are filled with corrupted logs that shorten fights. Not to mention the site only wants to work a fraction of the time. WoL is a much better place to find good fights anyway despite it's filtering/search limitations.
I should also mention that the spec I use for Anub deviates from the typical Unholy-subtree spec. I've found that this spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft works better because of the very large boost in AoE damage you receive from the extra attack power and the extra 5% crit. Along with this, I also glyph DnD, since the 20% boost in it's damage is worth way more than an extra 10 RP on every IT for this fight.
Currently DW frost (GoD) competes with 2h UH, and with the nerf to our 4p T9 (I'm assuming it hurts GoD more than 2h UH) and buff to SS; what are peoples thoughts on competitiveness for maximum dps between the two specs come next patch?
@ Raptor : They are not actually nerfing our t9 so to speak, they are redesigning our Glyph of IT so that it increases the damage from FF by 20% instead of granting additional RP, therefore they are simply balancing. From what I have read and seen I don't see any reason why DW Frost will be any less competitive then it is now.
I was asking Darkside for his personal numbers. I run Unholy aoe as my offspec simply because I wasn't seeing even remotely close to the personal numbers I was seeing some DK's getting as Unholy so I built an Unholy set/spec and my damage went up significantly (2000-3000+).
I also don't trust WMO since hardly anybody uses it any longer and most of their ladders are filled with corrupted logs that shorten fights. Not to mention the site only wants to work a fraction of the time. WoL is a much better place to find good fights anyway despite it's filtering/search limitations.
Ironically WMO numbers are about half of the WoL numbers. But yes, I'd use WoL over WMO too - I just didn't know they're putting up rankings now. Excellent.
Yet, Darkside, while UH's dominance is certain, Frost isn't THAT much behind. It's less then a 10% dps difference; the reason you seen an army of 12k UH dps and a smaller number of 11700 dps frost ones is that UH aoe is on demand, while probably those numbers for Frost require some solid luck with Ryme.
That said, Anub Hard is a fight that actually does some justice to Frost.
12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.
Hey guys I have a question that should be simple. What AOE rotation as frost is everyone using on Anub? I find myself a little lost on this fight as far as that. Any help would be appreciated.
I stay frost DW (GoD) for all encounters including anub because we do not like/use enhance shamans in my guild so I get to be the icy talons bot. Unholy is definitely superior for this fight if you only look at AoE. As frost though, I always beat the other DKs in damage done to anub directly.
My rotation for the anub adds is more of a priority system really.
You obviously already have your diseases rolling on anub as the adds are incoming. IT on anub as the adds are being positioned to refresh the 20s IIT. Pestilence as soon as the adds are in range (aggro has never been a prob)
If I have all my other runes available, I'll lay a DnD. Most of the time though I don't have a full set of fresh runes and don't enjoy white swinging waiting for them to refresh too often (Empower Rune Wep is especially nice here at times).
Ideally, you'll want to have saved any Rime or KM proc from single-targeting anub and unload those right away. If you have no procs queued, I'll usually launch a HB right away. Even if you just have a KM up, go ahead and HB. If you have Rime but not KM, I tend to offload the HB anyway. The adds just don't live long enough to wait for ideal situations/procs. It is very RNG and can be frustrating going through a full set of adds and not getting a Rime or KM and just 1-2 weak regular HBs, but it's better than nothing.
Keep OB'ing and FS'ing anub and cross your fingers for a rime/km proc before the adds die. Use your HBs as soon as they proc or come off CD. The adds usually only live about 10-20s for our guild which is why I don't necessarily wait for a Rime/KM proc to use my HBs. If yours stay alive for much longer, I'd consider single targeting an add and actually saving/lining up Rime/KMs.
DnD is very strong although not as great for us as UH. It should be at the top of your priority list if a) you have the runes and b) you get a full duration with the adds. I don't think it's worth putting down if the adds are already sub 80% for instance.
You can glyph DnD although I personally felt either RP starved or at an overall dps loss if I dropped a glyph for DnD so I never use one any more. GoD, FS, and Obliterate are the glyphs I use. This maintains the high single-target DPS and doesn't hinder your AoE much at all, you'll still blow every class out of the water if you get lucky and chain 2-3 Rime/KM hits into a single add wave even without laying a DnD.
I use a 3/54/14 spec, which I feel is optimal for all fights but which I don't ever see mentioned in this thread for some reason. I tried all of them and this is my personal favorite, I can't live without the reduced threat on subversion anymore. Check my armory if you want to comment or look @ spec.
Now I don't have a very impressive reported WoL dps for Anub but that's only because it doesn't show 1-5% wipes where I was pushing 10-11k. It's a very frustrating fight at times for frost due to the very large RNG factor, at least for me. /shrug
Originally Posted by Valtiel
Where? On which fight?
I'm pleased with Frost DW performance, the single target dps is very solid, but in no way it compared to UH on any fight of Coliseum at least.
Beasts and Twins it absolutely does. There is obvious potential RNG with empowers though, but much of dw frost is RNG based. A couple rimes and KMs at opportune times can swing meters substantially.
seems like a good place to start. Not that much behind UH on HM apparently.
I know this is not the right place to ask and i'm sorry to do it but there's a question going since weeks: where are the 9.5k+ DPS Frost DW on Anub-25 HM?
I ever play DW at that encounter and it seems incredible the range of DPS shown on that table is cut on half.
@Peinbringer
Yes you use the weapon with higher max dmg on your main hand.
@Altstarz
IIT and GoD don't really sync with eachother well. Even on cleaving fights like Anub you still need to refresh IIT with IT every 20 secs, leaving you with 2 unholy runes and 1 frost rune and making you miss on using 1 unholy rune every 20 secs in your rotation resulting in less GCD's used and less RP gained. I don't really see why you don't drop GoD for GoIT and use that 1 PS every 20 seconds. You also can't keep a buffed FF up since you need to use IT so often. I'd say drop Icy Talons and Imp. Icy Talons and get an Enhancement Shaman or have a 16% WF dropped, or drop GoD.
By dropping IIT you'd also gain talent points to max Necrosis and get points for BCB. If you don't have threat issues dropping points from Subversion to BCB would be a minor single-target DPS gain and on cleaving fights you Obliterate and Blood Strike less since you use runes for HB and Pest, making the passive DPS gained from BCB alot better than crit on OB and BS. Taking all this to account I ended up with a 1/52/18 GoD spec. The talents on Endless Winter and Icy Reach are filler talents for some utility. If I'd change something I'd move points from EW to Imp. Frost Pres for the extra survivability if needed, or the point from IR to HC if you want the talent for some reason.
E: That spec was not pointed only for the Anub fight, but as in general. I am aware that the Blood subtree spec with DND glyph should work better on Anub as Darkside pointed out earlier.
I know its not ideal and my personal dps is gimped slightly but we'll never bring an enhance shaman to our raids, ever. The minor loss in dps that I suffer having to maintain IIT is (according to our GM) less than the overall raid dps loss of bringing an enhance shaman over say, another feral druid. Personally I'd love it as I could roll both diseases but since it won't ever happen, I have to make the most of it.
IIT and GoD aren't ideal; however, I prefer it by a long shot over the current GoIT. I will probably change after the 3.3 change to GoIT but currently, the 10 extra RP I found is negligible and it at least allows my blood plague to tick @ max damage for the duration. I typically IT then pest immediately to refresh both timers so I know that when diseases are about to wear off, IIT will need reapplied.
Perhaps its just my gear, but with this 'gimped' spec/rotation I still have several top 10 WoL on 25m ToTGC fights for frost DKs. I'd have the #1 for anub @ ~11500 dps but we wiped at 300k (yes less than .5% lol) and haven't had the stars align yet on our recent kills.
BCB just never did any significant damage for me when I was using it to make me think its worth dropping subversion for. Without subversion I am in real danger of pulling, particularly adds on anub. With subversion I can safely pest and unload a KM'd HB into the adds even before they are positioned with just the trix/taunt aggro.
@Altstarz
I'm really curious how you can play like that and perform so well. Lets say on a single target your rotation should look something like this; IT-Pest-OB-BS Dump OB-OB-OB Dump. You miss 1 PS/OB in your rotation and can only pull that 1 OB off once in a minute by using Blood Tap. Using 1 less GCD on your runes and gaining less RP from not using PS and not glyphing IT I don't see how you can manage to pull off enough Frost Strikes while dumping. And I don't think a buffed BP can make up for it either. Can you lighten me up a bit?
I practically never lack for a gcd to either pop a FS, BS, or OB. I don't know how to lighten you up or what you mean? I know its not ideal but since I have to maintain IIT its the best I've come up with for those in my situation. My dps is not a set rotation by any means, but it allows freedom to go with the flow of the fights. None of the fights in TotGC are just stand there and dps in a strict rotation, perhaps I'll see those in ICC.
Typical opening rotation is Blood Fury (orc) & Unbreakable armor/blood tap - then BS to proc the 2pc t9 bonus. Death's choice and DMC:G both proc and give me my max AP to then apply IT and PS. OB BS FS FS. Empower rune wep, OB OB OB, dump. Of course you'll toss in rime/km's as they appear. Then IT as talons is wearing out, pestilence.
Then its pretty much just a priority system.
OB top priority, FS if I have a KM (regardless of spot in rotation), then BS if the blood runes are not death.
I practically never lack for a gcd to either pop a FS, BS, or OB. I don't know how to lighten you up or what you mean? I know its not ideal but since I have to maintain IIT its the best I've come up with for those in my situation. My dps is not a set rotation by any means, but it allows freedom to go with the flow of the fights. None of the fights in TotGC are just stand there and dps in a strict rotation, perhaps I'll see those in ICC.
Typical opening rotation is Blood Fury (orc) & Unbreakable armor/blood tap - then BS to proc the 2pc t9 bonus. Death's choice and DMC:G both proc and give me my max AP to then apply IT and PS. OB BS FS FS. Empower rune wep, OB OB OB, dump. Of course you'll toss in rime/km's as they appear. Then IT as talons is wearing out, pestilence.
Then its pretty much just a priority system.
OB top priority, FS if I have a KM (regardless of spot in rotation), then BS if the blood runes are not death.
What we're not getting is the benefit you gain from using GoD. You're still casting IT every 20 seconds, so you have a spare UH rune that goes to...?
If you PS, you will overwrite your Blood Plauge and thus GoD will do absolutely nothing.
If you don't, you're using one less UH rune every 20 seconds, which add up to using a blood rune for pest for no gain, which adds to having an unused glyph.
12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.
I'm sitting here whacking a target dummy using pest with GoD and I'm never sitting with one extra UH rune. It gets used with one of the death runes each time or with the other frost rune that I didn't use to IT. I suppose freedom is my best answer? I prefer the playstyle being able to use one gcd to re-apply diseases rather than 2 and it just works for me better than trying with GoIT.
If I switched to GoIT I'd gain an extra 10 extra RP every 20s, right? So every minute I get almost an extra FS? That means very little to me when I already have enough RP to dump FS every time I get a KM or need to buy a few seconds between rune refreshes. I'd actually consider that a near wasted glyph slot. /shrug
I'm sitting here whacking a target dummy using pest with GoD and I'm never sitting with one extra UH rune. It gets used with one of the death runes each time or with the other frost rune that I didn't use to IT. I suppose freedom is my best answer? I prefer the playstyle being able to use one gcd to re-apply diseases rather than 2 and it just works for me better than trying with GoIT.
If I switched to GoIT I'd gain an extra 10 extra RP every 20s, right? So every minute I get almost an extra FS? That means very little to me when I already have enough RP to dump FS every time I get a KM or need to buy a few seconds between rune refreshes. I'd actually consider that a near wasted glyph slot. /shrug
You're basically settling for a suboptimal combination of spec and glyphs to provide buffs to your raid. That's fine but don't advocate this rather suboptimal spec to other DK's trying to convince them to use it. You're probably getting away with it because you're either used to your disc priest/druids loading up your RP but there's no way you have enough RP to fill all CDs without external buffs. GoD and IIT just don't go hand in hand, face it.
I'm sitting here whacking a target dummy using pest with GoD and I'm never sitting with one extra UH rune. It gets used with one of the death runes each time or with the other frost rune that I didn't use to IT. I suppose freedom is my best answer? I prefer the playstyle being able to use one gcd to re-apply diseases rather than 2 and it just works for me better than trying with GoIT.
But you are using two GCDs: one to reapply Icy Talons and one to pestilence.
11/17/09, 5:51 PM
Similar Threads
