I'm sitting here whacking a target dummy using pest with GoD and I'm never sitting with one extra UH rune. It gets used with one of the death runes each time or with the other frost rune that I didn't use to IT. I suppose freedom is my best answer? I prefer the playstyle being able to use one gcd to re-apply diseases rather than 2 and it just works for me better than trying with GoIT.
If I switched to GoIT I'd gain an extra 10 extra RP every 20s, right? So every minute I get almost an extra FS? That means very little to me when I already have enough RP to dump FS every time I get a KM or need to buy a few seconds between rune refreshes. I'd actually consider that a near wasted glyph slot. /shrug
How is IT + Pest only 1 GCD? It takes the same time as using IT + PS which is 2 GCD's.
But yes, it takes 3 GCD's to spread them with GoIT and only 2 with your GoDIIT.
Now lets say you have BBUUFF runes, you use your IT, Pest, OB and BS, and end up with bbUuff.
Now of course the U rune will get used once the others come active for your 3x OB, DDUUFF, but that doesn't mean you're actually "never sitting with one extra UH rune". You should get that the difference is not only "10 extra RP every 20s", since there is also a rune you're missing every 20 seconds. While we use 12 runes in our 20 secs rotation, you use 11.
You lose RP for both GoIT's (10RP) and 1 PS' (10RP) worth every 20s (20RP) and also the damage PS does (my average PS dmg from Kahorie's sim: 2563,5). You also use 1 GCD less on the first part of the rotation on top of gaining less RP, which makes your Dump1 1 GCD longer than others' with your gimped RP.
1. IT-Pest-OB-BS, 2. Dump1, 3. OB-OB-OB, 4. Dump2
1. 4 GCD's 5 runes, 2. 1 GCD longer dump
1. F-B-FU-B, 2. lonely U rune active, 3. U rune gets used first time, 4. bbuuff coming down
If you want, you can play that "freedom" of yours, but I'd never suggest it to others over the standard IIT spec with GoIT.
I guess I'll just test out GoIT again for next week's raids and see how it compares. I'm not being left with an extra rune and I'm not sure how to illustrate that short of a video. I'm not advocating the rotation or spec, I'm probably in the small minority of top guilds that don't carry enhance shamans and then in the small minority of those using my spec & playstyle. Its sub-optimal but it performs better for me than using GoD than GoIT. I'll just have to compare logs of last week and this week and report back on Tuesday.
Also Lamp, pestilence isn't in my starting rotation until ~20s at the end of the 2nd rune set. We also dont have a disc priest and our resto druid doesn't have the empower talent for gaining RP (forgot its name offhand) so I don't get outside help with RP other than using AMS properly.
I'll report back after testing your suggestions, thanks for the input!
I just got a couple 245 1 handers and wanted to try out a DW spec for my DPS build (i'm a tank normally).
I'm using the 0/17/54 build outlined in the 1st post of this thread but i'm finding that in my rotation I don't have enough RP for all of the DCs listed. This is the rotation I use straight off the front page:
PS IT BS DC GF IT BS DC
PS IT IT DC DC PS IT IT DC DC
On the second half of the rotation I run into a problem.
PS IT IT DC Then the second DC in this part of the rotation I don't have enough RP to execute. I'm always sitting around 10 RP shy of the 40RP mark.
I've been trying to time blowing HoW and BS on entering combat so that I have enough RP stockpiled to make up for it but I have only found that it messes up the first half of the rotation because the Unholy rune BS takes means I can't Ghoul Frenzy.
Am I doing something wrong? The DPS I'm seeing even with this incomplete rotation is impressive and I want to continue using it but I can't even finish the rotation as it stands. I have all the correct glyphs and talents for generating additional RP.
Is this accurate? I have a feeling RAWR is over valuing GoD but if I can truly get 800 more DPS as DW frost then blood I find that interesting. This is of course potential dmg and it is up to me to actually perform.
Is this accurate? I have a feeling RAWR is over valuing GoD but if I can truly get 800 more DPS as DW frost then blood I find that interesting. This is of course potential dmg and it is up to me to actually perform.
In my experience Rawr over-values dual wield.
As unholy, it will optimize me with a 2 hander, but plugging in my 2 hander puts me at about 6.8k while equipping my dual-wield set up puts me at over 7k.
I wanted to raise a question, I'm running the 15/0/55 dual-wield build with glyph of DnD instead of IT for Anubarak. I've been playing around with DnD and I'm seeing in stationary, single-target fights, it's a small damage increase if I use a two-step rotation.
IT PS BS PS BB HoW DC
IT PS BB DND DC DC
I usually see an increase of 0.2-0.3% or over 100dps. So far I've tested this in VoA on Koralon, Emalon, trash, and Archavon, as well as dummies. I intend to try it on Gormok next week and Worms during the first phase when we are attacking the submerged worm. I anticipate it should be a very good buff to dps because of the following:
-Gormok does a knockdown, thus interrupting rotations, but not DnD.
-The worms do a knockback, same logic as above.
During any moving fights it may be unwise unless timed right after a move on icehowl, worms above-ground phase, and when no infernals are up on Jaraxxus.
The benefits in this I see are that
-DnD continues to do damage when I am not able to for any reason
-Less GcDs opens up more time to use Deathcoil without clipping into my standard rotation, as well as use HoW if necessary.
-I've heard that DK spells GCD is affected by haste. Can anyone confirm/deny? If so, DnD is a spell, and benefits from this where PS and SS would not have.
-DnD is not based on strike damage, and I'm dual-wield spec.
So I was bored today and did some testing on the dummy, I knwo not amazing test etc. However I did compare CG vs RI and figured out that RI while being stacked up is not as good as CG, so fights with mutiple target switches, in theory CG > RI due to the fact that CG doesn't require the "Build-up" period. In a straight burn fight, RI is better as you are not target switching and it is up for a large portion of the fight (About a 50-100dps difference it seems). Another point is movement fights, for a easy example Emalon. When you get your 10stack of razorfrost on Emalon then run out to kill the add by the time you get back your stack has only a few seconds left or is gone. Also on that add you are killing you don't have the benefits of a full stack of your frost debuff, while CG can proc and you get 2x 20% bonus to your frost/shadow attacks.
So in theory CG > RI for fights where you will switch targets, so in ToC Beasts, Demon J (Can't spell the name right don't want to fail trying), Faction Champs. In Uld Xt (Kinda, if you want to maximize dps on heart for sure), Kolo, Cat lover, Hodir (A big maybe here, your stack could fall off during flash freeze) Freya, (another maybe), Thorium if you are in arena and yogg as well makesense.
I think where I am getting at is, at least for our current content, ethier have 2 1hrs of the same ilvl/stats with RI on one and CG on the other and swap according to fights or roll with CG, because 3/5 fights in the major raid atm is enough for me and the 50-100 dps loss on burn fights.
Just my 2cents but I thought I'd share. These numbers where produced off a 10min parse on dummies, same dummy. Health etc was checked, CD's used etc.
I was under the impression that for trash or fights where you frequently switch targets FCx2 is the prefered set of runeforges. I don't have any numbers or evidence (anecdotal or otherwise) to back that up.
I just got a couple 245 1 handers and wanted to try out a DW spec for my DPS build (i'm a tank normally).
I'm using the 0/17/54 build outlined in the 1st post of this thread but i'm finding that in my rotation I don't have enough RP for all of the DCs listed. This is the rotation I use straight off the front page:
PS IT BS DC GF IT BS DC
PS IT IT DC DC PS IT IT DC DC
On the second half of the rotation I run into a problem.
PS IT IT DC Then the second DC in this part of the rotation I don't have enough RP to execute. I'm always sitting around 10 RP shy of the 40RP mark.
I've been trying to time blowing HoW and BS on entering combat so that I have enough RP stockpiled to make up for it but I have only found that it messes up the first half of the rotation because the Unholy rune BS takes means I can't Ghoul Frenzy.
Am I doing something wrong? The DPS I'm seeing even with this incomplete rotation is impressive and I want to continue using it but I can't even finish the rotation as it stands. I have all the correct glyphs and talents for generating additional RP.
Thanks in advance
Looking at your spec I found where you are missing the additional runic power. You took 0/2 Dirge. The additional runic power granted from their would put you where you needed to be for the additional DC during your RP dump.
In addition you have 3/3 Reaping. You do not need to use Death runes in the rotation that you outlined that you are using.
I would suggest finishing Desolation with 5/5 and spending the other 2 talents into Dirge.
Edit: Ignore what was posted above... apparently DW Unholy changed since last I used it. My argument is null and void.
How is IT + Pest only 1 GCD? It takes the same time as using IT + PS which is 2 GCD's.
But yes, it takes 3 GCD's to spread them with GoIT and only 2 with your GoDIIT.
Now lets say you have BBUUFF runes, you use your IT, Pest, OB and BS, and end up with bbUuff.
Now of course the U rune will get used once the others come active for your 3x OB, DDUUFF, but that doesn't mean you're actually "never sitting with one extra UH rune". You should get that the difference is not only "10 extra RP every 20s", since there is also a rune you're missing every 20 seconds. While we use 12 runes in our 20 secs rotation, you use 11.
You lose RP for both GoIT's (10RP) and 1 PS' (10RP) worth every 20s (20RP) and also the damage PS does (my average PS dmg from Kahorie's sim: 2563,5). You also use 1 GCD less on the first part of the rotation on top of gaining less RP, which makes your Dump1 1 GCD longer than others' with your gimped RP.
1. IT-Pest-OB-BS, 2. Dump1, 3. OB-OB-OB, 4. Dump2
1. 4 GCD's 5 runes, 2. 1 GCD longer dump
1. F-B-FU-B, 2. lonely U rune active, 3. U rune gets used first time, 4. bbuuff coming down
If you want, you can play that "freedom" of yours, but I'd never suggest it to others over the standard IIT spec with GoIT.
Maybe he's using...
IT PS BS OB BS
IT OB OB Pest
OB BS OB BS
IT OB OB Pest
etc
Edit:For the record this would actually provide the same RP/20 as a standard rotation, which is 10 less than GoIT, as he said, if I count the RP gen properly.
When you refresh the diseases do they refresh to their original power or to your current stats?. Like if you first applied with loads of procs would a refresh apply them to the same state or your current state.
So I was bored today and did some testing on the dummy...
...I did compare CG vs RI and figured out that RI while being stacked up is not as good as CG, so fights with mutiple target switches, in theory CG > RI due to the fact that CG doesn't require the "Build-up" period....
...So in theory CG > RI for fights where you will switch targets...
These numbers where produced off a 10min parse on dummies, same dummy. Health etc was checked, CD's used etc.
This was with the IIT spec given.
It seems you read some posts, but not enough - just go check out the first posts of the other threads.
It is true about target-switching fights not favoring RI...but nothing else beats FC/FC because of increased uptime on the proc.
Originally Posted by Mesker
Question about pestilence.
When you refresh the diseases do they refresh to their original power or to your current stats?. Like if you first applied with loads of procs would a refresh apply them to the same state or your current state.
I don't know if you are referring to the glyph of disease or not here. The practice of "rolling" diseases (mentioned throughout these forums) continuously refreshes your diseases at their ORIGINAL power level. So you can't ever let it drop off the mob, or you will have to re-apply them with new procs or trinket pops or whatever you use.
Without the glyph, diseases simply use your current power to...well, power them.
When you refresh the diseases do they refresh to their original power or to your current stats?. Like if you first applied with loads of procs would a refresh apply them to the same state or your current state.
Same state, if you want to apply diseases with a higher AP then you need to reapply them manually.
IT PS BS OB BS
IT OB OB Pest
OB BS OB BS
IT OB OB Pest
etc
Edit:For the record this would actually provide the same RP/20 as a standard rotation, which is 10 less than GoIT, as he said, if I count the RP gen properly.
Oh yes, I never considered not using death runes for OB. That would actually work, using the death runes for IT+Pest and using OB for all the U&F runes. That rotation uses the same amount of OB, BS and IT as the standard rotation and has Pest in there instead of PS.
@Altstarz
If you're doing it like this, forget most of what I said. You're missing the PS damage and 10RP in your rotation, but gaining a buffed BP.
@HRAE
I am doing it, you get a 200str boost for your diseases if SoV procs. If it doesn't, you just lose SoA's worth of damage on the first Obliterates which is nothing major. I use ERW at the start to be able to use more Obliterates (3) for SoV to proc. 15 second buffs which procced at the start of the fight should be just about to drop off when I reapply the diseases. Something like this:
IT PS OB BS BS ERW
OB OB IT PS [swap to awareness] Dump, and continue with the normal GoD rotation.
The time used when the last PS lands is almost 15 seconds, so if some of yours procs drop off before you manage to use PS you can change the castsequence after DRW to OB IT PS OB to make sure you apply them in time, but losing 1/3 chance to get SoV for your diseases.
That's how I like to do it atleast.
Spell hit scales differently than melee hit. 26 points of hit rating are required to get 1% spell hit chance, therefore without a draenei aura you will need 289 hit rating to become spellhit capped, assuming optimal raid buffs and talents.
17% spell hit is 445.94
14% spell hit is 367.25 (Virulence)
11% spell hit is 288.55 (Virulence + Imp. FF or Misery)
10% spell hit is 262.32 (Virulence + Imp. FF or Misery + Heroic Presence)
The important here is that hit is a bad stat to have after melee hit cap. Between melee and spell hit cap STR and crit will be better, and after spell cap any other stat will be better. Its never really important how good a stat is, but how good it will be compared to other options avaliable. So as long as you have the gear to lose hit and gain something better, it will be an improvement. But if you really can't drop it, it's still adding some dps, even if just a little.
One thing i would like to mention about spell hit cap is, even being inferior to STR and crit in a max theoretical perspective, there are opportunity costs from missing a spell. For an ITT build missed IT's will be an annoyance, as you need to always watch them to be sure you react correctly if you miss. For a GoD build, missing a pestilence and have you boosted diseases fall can be really bad (and if you decide to pest early to avoid it you are losing dps by not using your blood runes right). For unholy DW missing DC's hurts a lot, missing IT is harsh if you are using the 10 sec rotation that is already GCD capped, and if glyphed for GoD it's the same deal as frost GoD.
The gap between 263 (8% melee hit) and 289 (a common spell cap) is not huge and sometimes just swaping gear around a little can put you there without sacrificing much.
I just deleted ten consecutive posts for becoming what I like to call a "retard chain." That's when one person asks dumb questions and another person feels compelled to answer them even when the answer would be easily available if the first guy had just spent two minutes searching. I'm sure you can all appreciate that kind of posting causes thread bloat, and thread bloat sucks. Let's try to not have any more retard chains for a while, okay guys? I mean, I know you're DKs and all, but even you should have standards.
The important here is that hit is a bad stat to have after melee hit cap. Between melee and spell hit cap STR and crit will be better, and after spell cap any other stat will be better.
First, can you please explain how you verified this.
I understand the implications of spells missing in regards to altering our rotation or the DPS loss from a HB+KM+Rime missing. Given that our melee damage is the top damage (roughly 25-30% of our total damage), why has there been so much debate on "Spell Hit" when our melee swings are the top damaging attack and are missing 15% of the time? From my own experience (311 hit rating), my log reports my melee swings miss 15-17% of the time in full raid buffs. Searching the world of logs, I found a parse from one of the top DPS Frost DW players, showing melee damage accounting for 27% of his total damage, but despite his 356 hit rating (10.86%), he still missed 12.6%. Simulation data from post #1892 shows a melee miss rate of 17%. In discussing the optimal hit rating, shouldn't we be concerned with decreasing our melee misses in addition to the implications of spell misses?
Last edited by thedudeabides : 12/02/09 at 3:32 PM.
Reason: Failure to read the end of the OP, despite reading over it for weeks
In discussing the optimal hit rating, shouldn't we be concerned with decreasing our melee misses in addition to the implications of spell misses?
What you're forgetting is that although melee white damage is a high percentage of our dps, after you hit the spell hit cap melee is the only thing affected by hit. Strength and Crit (Until you hit the melee crit cap) will affect ALL of your damaging abilities.
Originally Posted by thedudeabides
The discussion around melee hit cap, including the OP, continues to emphasize the 8% value. Due to [Nerves of Cold Steel] giving 3%, the actual hit rating we need to reach the hit cap is 5%. In the discussion and the stat weights in the OP can we clarify whether the 8% hit cap includes or is in addition to the 3% from talents.
As far as the special ability hit cap goes, you need 8%. If you have the Nerves of Cold Steel talent, your hit cap from gear would be 5%.
Ive noticed you updated the original post stating last update before 3.3. I was wondering if you planned to update the original post once 3.3 released or if you were remaking a new duel wield post.
Ive noticed you updated the original post stating last update before 3.3. I was wondering if you planned to update the original post once 3.3 released or if you were remaking a new duel wield post.
Darkside will be posting a new thread shortly, I've sent a request to a moderator to have this thread locked as there really isn't much else to discuss regarding 3.2.2.
11/25/09, 8:25 AM
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