DW Builds 3.2 -Revenge of the Offhand - Page 98

concept84 · 08/21/09, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Afabar

I have make a quick integration on my local version of the sim. It will be included it in the next release.

Using :Template: Frost 3-51-17, Priority: Frost, Presence: Blood, Sigil: Virulence.

Wouldn't it be smarter to sim with Awareness over Virulence, since it has been shown to be better than Virulence?

Afabar · 08/21/09, 12:06 PM

Virulence would be the best case scenario as it give strengh for fallen crusader, but even with that, it's behind.
Before making conclusion, I have implemented as it could proc from ToT, but I have not test it my self.

bighandxyz · 08/21/09, 8:09 PM

hi, long reader first time poster.

has there been any math done regarding T9 and frost DW? especially in the case of GoD?

since you are missing a bloodstrike on your rotation, how much will it affect your dps?

Syrellia · 08/22/09, 9:54 AM

I tried simulators and it suggested that dropping 1 point from CotG to put into UBA is superior than dropping 1 point from either KM or BCB. The DPS difference is about 100 dps, so it's really up to personal choice.

Regarding GCD starvation by dropping 1 point in CotG, the first rotation will still be complete:

Starting with 10 RP (HoW), assuming glyph of IT:

IT (32.5) PS (42.5) OB (60) BS (70) BS (80) FS (48) FS (16) OB (33.5) OB (51) FS (19) OB (36.5) FS (4.5) - 12 GCD, leaving 1 free for either Rime or another HoW (Yes, HoW has 20s cd so even if you used it at first of the rotation you'll be able to use it again).

Second rotation starts off with Blood Tap + UBA, so you'll start off with 20 extra RP. Also I am a blood elf so I can use my racial to generate extra RPs. After the first few rotations, you should get plenty of extra RPs due to druid's regen and possible AMS soak.

Regarding Berserking enchants: It would be great if it was implemented in the sims. The tests I did in Unholy DW section is not relevant to DW Frost, because if the offhand strikes from ToT procs Berserking, we can expect the effectiveness of Berserking to be much higher.

Brachamul · 08/23/09, 7:55 AM

Hello,

I've been testing Frost DW extensively recently, and have a few questions i'd like to put on the table.

My character gears primarily for tanking, but spends around half his time in raid as a damage dealer. My gear is mostly ilvl 226 from ulduar 25, with a few ilvl 219 and ilvl 232 items from ulduar 10 and ulduar hard modes. I have about 3900ap and 26% crit self buffed. My weapons were acquired recently and are ilvl 200 (MH) and ilvl 219 (OH). Both are slow at 2.5 and 2.6 speed.

From my testing, i have achieved about 3500dps on a dummy boss.
44% of my damage came from Obliterate
25% of my damage came from Frost Strike
14% of my damage came from Melee
10% of my damage came from Howling Blast
6-7% of my damage came from Diseases

My build is 10/54/7.

My question is as follows :
- If i was to take the Necrosis and Blood-Caked Blade talents, i would increase my melee damage by 20% (necrosis) and 15% (blood-caked blade). This 35% damage increase would be a total 5% damage increase for my character. Can this really compete with Bladed Armor, which grants me around 400ap (about +13% ap)?

Diello · 08/23/09, 8:55 AM

The dummy can't give you worthwhile results. Melee will be a much much higher percentage of your damage when you're in a raid. With full raid buffs and debuffs involved you will get entirely different percentages and Necrosis and BCB go way up in value. Do some real testing and see what happens.

concept84 · 08/23/09, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Brachamul

My question is as follows :
- If i was to take the Necrosis and Blood-Caked Blade talents, i would increase my melee damage by 20% (necrosis) and 15% (blood-caked blade). This 35% damage increase would be a total 5% damage increase for my character. Can this really compete with Bladed Armor, which grants me around 400ap (about +13% ap)?

Necrosis and BCB scale very well as gear gets better, while Bladed Armor pretty much stays the same. At Ulduar/Toc gear levels Necrosis and BCB are far better choices.

Rikdot · 08/23/09, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by Shareth

EP:50 | AttackPower | 100
EP:50 | Strength | 271
EP:50 | Agility | 134
EP:50 | CritRating | 171
EP:50 | HasteRating | 146
EP:50 | ArmorPenetrationRating | 193
EP:50 | ExpertiseRating | 356
EP:50 | HitRating | 412
EP:50 | SpellHitRating | 203
EP:10 | WeaponDPS | 703
EP:0.1 | WeaponSpeed | 37500
EP: | 2T7 | 11587
EP: | 4T7 | 11269
EP: | 2T8 | 17301
EP: | 4T8 | 12698
EP: | 2T9 | 35714
EP: | 4T9 | 24761
EP: | Comet | 16875
EP: | DarkMatter | 13750
EP: | Bandit | 9375
EP: | Necromantic | 7812
EP: | Victory | 21875
EP: | DCDeath | 10156
EP: | Greatness | 20156
EP: | DeathChoice | 30625
EP: | Pyrite | 22343
EP: | OldGod | 23125
EP: | Mirror | 17968
EP: | BitterAnguish | 8125
EP: | GrimToll | 78593
EP: | MjolRune | 82031
| Template | Frost 0-54-17
| Priority | Frost
| Presence | Blood
| Sigil | Virulence
| RuneEnchant | FallenCrusader / Razorice
| Pet Calculation | True
500 hours simulation
100ms lag
Spec: 4/5 KM, 3/3 BCB, 1/1 UA
Latest simulator (version 1.0.4).

Time to rethink stat values?

The T92P value in this is incorrect. It has an 45 sec internal cooldown and after that a 50% proc chance , the internal is not implied in the current Simulator. So its overvalued.

Ðemøsthenes · 08/23/09, 4:12 PM

Given the stats shown at top of post I get these numbers breakdowns from each other now as I am not sure of cap on any of these they may be wrong but,
Str>Arm Pen =1.4
Arm Pen>Crit = 1.28
Crit>Haste= 1.14
Now as I have read and to my knowledge hasn't been put to rest there are a few questions I have
1. Is awareness better then virulence for both specs 53/18 and 3/51/17?
2. At beginning of post it was said that most promising spec for dw is the 53/18 but in real game time it would appear that 3/51/17 is ahead of this, why though, to my knowledge dps per talent point is better served in 53/18.
4 What is Arm pen cap for both of these spec as oblit and melee are some of the main dmging attacks.
5 It has been covered that 8 percent hit is all that is needed and because of talents we only need 5 percent, but there are arguements that spell hit cap should be achieved, has any point been proven either way?

Asphyxialol · 08/23/09, 6:05 PM

Originally Posted by Ðemøsthenes

Given the stats shown at top of post I get these numbers breakdowns from each other now as I am not sure of cap on any of these they may be wrong but,
Str>Arm Pen =1.4
Arm Pen>Crit = 1.28
Crit>Haste= 1.14
Now as I have read and to my knowledge hasn't been put to rest there are a few questions I have
1. Is awareness better then virulence for both specs 53/18 and 3/51/17?
2. At beginning of post it was said that most promising spec for dw is the 53/18 but in real game time it would appear that 3/51/17 is ahead of this, why though, to my knowledge dps per talent point is better served in 53/18.
4 What is Arm pen cap for both of these spec as oblit and melee are some of the main dmging attacks.
5 It has been covered that 8 percent hit is all that is needed and because of talents we only need 5 percent, but there are arguements that spell hit cap should be achieved, has any point been proven either way?

1 - I believe it was Darkside or Doc who posted that Virulence would be a better choice on any fight which required AoE as a key component (Thorim and Freya as examples), however on on a stand still and nuke a single target type fight that Awareness still edges it out.

2 - This has also been shown throughout the thread. In my 5,000 hour parse I showed 3/3 BCB totaling 15 more dps than 3/3 Subversion. BCB is also greatly diminished on any fights requiring heavy movement where you are not on the boss full time, and also diminishes in AoE situations. Subversion is a mere 15 dps lower and still provides the massive threat reduction, which is useful on both single target and aoe situations.

The two points moved from Frost to Unholy to pick up the BCB are negligible and showing very little difference in DPS (ie, in my ITT based 3/51/17 I took the points out of MC, as my simulations all showed 2/3 BCB was dominant to 2/2 MC). Many people have been using 3/53/15 as well for this reason.

3 - As frost builds do not have the passive 10% Armor Pen that Blood has the soft cap (w/ [Mjolnir Runestone]) is then 566 Armor Pen and the hard cap remains 1,231. However Frost Armor Pen is not weighted as highly as Blood's Armor Pen is, so hitting the soft cap shouldn't be a major concern.

4 - This comes down to preference. The simulator will tell you that you will be able to achieve higher DPS by not hitting the spell hit and rather focusing on other areas and it also comes down to spec. Missing an IT in an IIT spec is not a huge dps loss, missing your Pestilence in a GoDisease rotation is (especially considering if its later on and you had already reapplied your max diseases via proc'd diseases and have been carrying those with Pestilence). As a matter of personal preference I aim for the spell hit cap and the expertise soft cap as a means to make my dps much more sustained and predictable rather than sporadic (in the event the RNG gods like me, which rarely happens regardless).

Sealpup · 08/23/09, 7:43 PM

Originally Posted by Asphyxialol

The two points moved from Frost to Unholy to pick up the BCB are negligible and showing very little difference in DPS (ie, in my ITT based 3/51/17 I took the points out of MC, as my simulations all showed 2/3 BCB was dominant to 2/2 MC).

Thank you for your informative answers. I am not arguing with your simulated results (i.e. I trust they are correct), yet in all the actual combat parses I have looked, using the aforementioned spec, blood-caked blade provides a mere 0.3 to 0.4% per point. To that end I cannot see why merciless combat isn't better for the 2 points investment. What are the others' thoughts about this? 2/2 MC or 2/3 BCB?

Asphyxialol · 08/23/09, 8:48 PM

I have just ran a simulation of 3/53/15 vs 3/51/17 the difference being 2/2 MC and 0/3 BCB to 0/2 MC and 2/3 BCB while using my current DW setup (I'm not sure if I logged in Blood or DW gear, but DW is relatively mediocre in the grand scale of BiS - 3810 AP, 24% Crit, 26 Expertise, 288 Hit, 2x [Malice] FC/RI and Awareness unbuffed) these were the results (everything minus Draenei Aura and BL checked)...

Ability	Total	%	Landed	Hit %	Crit %	Miss %	Average
Obliterate	731235102	29.3	71578	40.9	59.1	0	10215.9
Frost Strike	555532060	22.2	76160	47.4	52.6	0	7294.3
Main Hand	315909513	12.6	165810	52.8	31.9	15.3	1905.3
Off Hand	182473934	7.3	165847	52.8	32	15.2	1100.3
Blood Strike	139803309	5.6	35726	55.8	44.2	0	3913.2
Howling Blast	137896021	5.5	14510	1.3	98.6	0	9503.5
Necrosis	99721880	4	331657	100	0	0	300.7
Frost Fever	92541076	3.7	112167	100	0	0	825
Blood Plague	84225603	3.4	112177	100	0	0	750.8
Icy Touch	61251948	2.5	17917	46.7	53.3	0.1	3418.6
Plague Strike	45769251	1.8	17920	59.1	40.9	0	2554.1
Blood Caked Blade	45325069	1.8	66533	100	0	0	681.2
Ghoul	4242697	0.2	6498	87.2	12.8	0	652.9
Raz	1492623	0.1	165847	100	0	0	9
Horn	0	0	481	0	0	0	0

This is the 3/51/17 without MC and pulled 6,937 dps over 100h. Obviously this factors in *no* downtime against the boss (ie no movement) and no haste reduction auras (like Vezax), showing approximately .9% dps increase per point in BCB.

Ability	Total	%	Landed	Hit %	Crit %	Miss %	Average
Obliterate	752893316	30.2	71629	41.4	58.6	0	10511
Frost Strike	572485079	22.9	76199	46.9	53.1	0	7513
Main Hand	315396771	12.6	165862	52.9	31.8	15.2	1901.6
Off Hand	182302169	7.3	166068	52.9	31.9	15.1	1097.8
Howling Blast	141654517	5.7	14475	1.1	98.8	0	9786.1
Blood Strike	139817532	5.6	35757	55.8	44.2	0	3910.2
Necrosis	99583135	4	331930	100	0	0	300
Frost Fever	92400746	3.7	112253	100	0	0	823.1
Blood Plague	84118241	3.4	112241	100	0	0	749.4
Icy Touch	62801060	2.5	17937	47.1	52.9	0	3501.2
Plague Strike	45729047	1.8	17942	59.5	40.5	0	2548.7
Ghoul	4136976	0.2	6327	87.2	12.8	0	653.9
Raz	1494612	0.1	166068	100	0	0	9
Horn	0	0	441	0	0	0	0

The DPS here is 6930, not a substantial difference, and it obviously does better on movement oriented fights, or fights where you will have extended periods of execute range (like Yogg, as an example).

The difference is so small it wouldn't even be noticeable with the variety of different RNG, but the way I figured it is that when learning hard modes (which I was when these tests were initially ran, in poorer gear and thus the spread was a little larger) that I may not even live to the execute range (a good example was Thorim's Chain Lightning and how our melee *always* managed to mass chain it, or roots on Freya HM where I would be rooted in seeds and thus die, or how I am on Immortal Guardian duty more than on Yogg during Yogg HM attempts, or on XT-002 where my RNG has always failed and I manage to get 3-4+ Searing Lights or Gravity Bombs a fight so I won't have full uptime in execute range, etc.).

Syrellia · 08/23/09, 9:09 PM

Originally Posted by Asphyxialol

I have just ran a simulation of 3/53/15 vs 3/51/17 the difference being 2/2 MC and 0/3 BCB to 0/2 MC and 2/3 BCB while using my current DW setup (I'm not sure if I logged in Blood or DW gear, but DW is relatively mediocre in the grand scale of BiS - 3810 AP, 24% Crit, 26 Expertise, 288 Hit, 2x [Malice] FC/RI and Awareness unbuffed) these were the results (everything minus Draenei Aura and BL checked)...

Comparing builds with and without MC in simulator is not very wise. First of all I don't know how simulators handle MC, so if you know, please enlighten me. Second of all, for fights that the last 35% phase is incredibly long, MC proves to be your best friend (Mimiron & Yogg-saron last phase). Most of the fights you can jack up dps in the last 35% by popping all cooldowns left. For this reason, MC is always taken over other talents, even though it does not do anything before the boss hit the 35% mark.

If you would like to run sims to compare Subversion vs. BCB, then be careful what they actually scales with. If you get gears with a lot of ArP, 5% hit mark, poor haste, it favors Subversion because of obvious reasons: You just won't proc BCB as much.

Another thing is Subversion gets modified by 4xt8 and Sigil of Awareness, both of which may get abandoned once we get to tier 9. Taking this into account, it's hard to say whether BCB is vastly superior or simply a few dps increase over Subversion.

Octopi · 08/23/09, 9:10 PM

The threat reduction appears to be undervalued by the community in my opinion.

There is a lot that can be said of ignoring(for the most) threat issues with DW Frost builds, especially early encounter engagements.

Syrellia · 08/23/09, 9:25 PM

In order to produce 7k dps, the threat produced would be about 5k - 5.5k tps (according to sims and real raid experiences). A decent tank can usually exceed that mark by a lot, they can usually produce 6k - 6.5k tps.
- Yes, Subversion is useful in many situations, especially when the tanks cannot handle the threats you are producing.
- No, if you want to maximize your dps then Subversion is not your talents of choice.
- However - the difference in DPS is very small, so it's entirely up to personal choice.

If you're in a good guild with a decent tanks I don't see why you should pick talents purely for threats reduction. Also to add: BCB gets buffs from blood lust, while Subversion does not. BCB also gets hit by haste debuff, but Subversion does not.