Yes, it does. To do some quick math:

I'm assuming you're using the Blood weights currently in the simulator, in which case Str = 2.82, Crit = 1.82, and ArP = 2.67.

For [Darkmoon Card: Greatness], you have a static 90 Strength. The proc is then worth 300 * 0.333, or 100 Strength. Total value of the DC:G is then 190 * 2.82, or 535.8.

For [Mjolnir Runestone], you have 102 static crit. The proc is then worth 665 * 0.183 ArP, which is 121.695 ArP. Total value of the trinket is 102 * 1.82 + 121.695 * 2.67, or 510.56565.

The conclusion is that DC:G is better than Mjolnir Runestone even for Blood with our current weights. If we weight ArP more highly then Mjolnir will pull ahead in fairly short order, since they are already close.

Thanks for clearing that up, Zerack.

There used to be a consensus that ArPen increased in value the more it was stacked. Is this still the case, and if so does the optimizer accurately reflect this?

Doc touches on the issue in this post and seems to imply that ArPen is still getting better the more it is stacked.

Thanks again for your work on the optimizer, btw. It's an absolute godsend for that BiS thread!

The optimizer does not increase or decrease the value of any stat as the stat is stacked more or less (caps for stats excluded, of course). The nature of ArP means that it works on something of a sliding scale - the best solution is most likely to generate a set, run that set through Kahorie's to get weights at that point, and then re-generate a best set using the new weights.

If you iterate like this you should be able to cope with the varying ArP weights. That said though, I did see the post with the ArP values and my gut tells me that the weight in our Blood set is a bit low for the amount of ArP that the sets have. That's outside my area of expertise, though - someone else will have to clear that up.

Arp is tricky. It can't really be included in stat weights, since it's never the same. Unfortunately Arp hasn't been discussed any further, even though it's the most interesting topic for Blood (and maybe Frost) right now.
Maybe I'll run a test series, but now right now.

Alright - given that ArP is a difficult problem to solve, what would be a good (accurate) way to calculate its value in an arbitrary set short of running a huge simulation in Kahorie's simulator? Could the people who develop weights run tests at different ArP rating levels (0, 100, 200, 300, etc.) and develop EP at each of those levels that could be used to variably weight ArP in sets?

Could we develop an equation that was a gross estimation for the value of ArP based on factors like Strength, ArP, and other stats (per spec)? I realize that these seem like hefty tasks, but as has been pointed out, the single point weight for ArP really isn't a good way to estimate value for these sets. I'm more than willing to dig into this problem a bit more (it wouldn't even be that complicated to implement something like this, really) since it will provide better results for everyone using the sim.

To be clear, what I'm suggesting is perhaps something like this. Instead of a single ArP weight, you would have something like this:

Total ArP %	Weight
0	1.50
10	1.90
20	2.30
30	2.50
40	2.75
50	2.90
60	3.10
70	3.23
80	3.38
90	3.50

You could use a table like that (with more precision and real numbers) to evaluate ArP at different levels during the same run. The equation alternative could end up looking something like (obviously again made up completely):

ArP_weight = 1.5 + ArP_Percent / 50

This would scale the weight from 1.50 to 3.50 the more ArP you had. Does either of these solutions seem like something we could come up with? My thought is that the tabular method is just a matter of enough work with Kahorie's simulator and some static gearsets with ArP changing, while the equation might be a bit more complicated to deal with.

Let me know what you guys think.

The issue with only changing Armor Pen is that it is impossible in-game to increase armor pen to those levels without gaining and losing other stats. I am not sure simply editing the single stat would result in proper test results. Is there a way we can come upon an agreed upon set of generalized stats for the different brackets or something?

I can say that through my personal gear upgrades the more armor penetration I had the higher its weight became, but I have to keep in mind that with the upgrades I received with armor penetration on them also generally came with upgrades to other areas of my character as well...

Obviously 100% armor penetration would make a larger difference on someone in 2000 str, 750 crit rating, hit/exp capped gear than it would on someone with 850 str, 500 crit, hit / exp capped, or even my current stats, which are only about 1790 str, 620 crit, 148 haste, spell hit / exp cap, and about 290 arm pen without Runestone factored in.

Diverting the topic away briefly: the rings section contains entries for Carnivorous Band and Gormok's Band. These are actually just the Alliance/Horde versions of the same item, so to avoid confusion it would probably be best to change them to the same name and give one a Heroic tag.

Ultimately I suppose it'd be best to give each item both its Horde and Alliance name, but that depends on whether you can be bothered there! It's not so bad for items where both versions have virtually the same name (ie. Planestalker Band vs Planestalker Signet), but as you have proved, it can get confusing when the equivalents have completely different names.

e: incidentally does anyone know if the separate item names thing is a trend they are planning to carry forward beyond the Coliseum loot? Because I must say it's made compiling these tables much more of a pain in the ass.

e2: also the Armbands of Dark Determination have the heroic and non-heroic stats the wrong way round.

Are you sure? It matches mmo-champion's loot list on my end. The Heroic version has two sockets which drive down the stats in other places.

I'll fix the ring, though - good catch.

Ah yeah, my bad.

Alright. I wanna just double check something here, the bolded part in particular.

Stat x stat weight = value, adjusting for uptime obviously.
Base stats: 102 crit x 1.82 = 185.64 - Easy enough
Proc: 665 Arp x 2.67 = 1775.55, which now has to be adjusted by the uptime of 10 seconds every 45 seconds. So 10/45, or .2222 = 394.56

394.56 + 185.64 = 580.2. Which is clearly better then DC:G's value of 535.8.

I know the difference in our numbers is the uptime, you are using 10 seconds every 60, but it's 10 seconds with a 45 second ICD AFAIK. Am I not calculating this right? Does the ICD start from the end of the proc and you factored in another 5 seconds of padding for actually getting it to proc?

Especially considering how little ArP the BiS blood suit has, I'd imagine the runestone would be great.

The detail of this is in the proc chance of [Mjolnir Runestone]. It's listed at only 15% after its 45 second cooldown on Wowhead, so it's not actually up for 10 seconds every 45. As described in this post (link), the uptime is only going to be around 18.3%, which is what is used in the simulator. At that proc rate and the weights currently in the Blood set, DC:G still turns out to be better.

Now I'm not discounting that the higher value of ArP as more is accumulated doesn't cause this to be a little bit skewed. However, if you both assume that the weights are correct and trust the math on the proc uptime there (which I've seen supported by anecdotal reports within 1-2% of that number), then the comparison of the two trinkets is valid.

It's fine for the set items or items that have a visual difference to differentiate between Horde and Alliance, but it seems fairly pointless applying it to rings and trinkets.

Incidentally I am still having issues with extremely slow calculation times. I always select a red gem, orange hit/str gem, and a Nightmare Tear. If I try and add a yellow hit gem to the mix the calc time increases from a few minutes to a few hours. This is having already changed the 'Hit (to melee cap)' weight to be below the strength weight, and with between one and three options per item slot.

I'm in the process of re-writing the gemming to be hopefully more efficient and to deal with higher hit values gracefully, but in the meantime while we're still putting Hit To Melee Cap < Str, it's worth noting that there is no situation in which a Rigid cut gem (+hit) will be used over an Etched cut gem (+hit/+str) by the optimizer. When I run optimizations for myself with hit < str, I use Bold, Sovereign, Nightmare Tear, Etched, and Inscribed / Fierce (depending on crit > haste or haste > crit). I'm fairly certain that these five gems cover every gem that would ever be used in that situation.

Those calculations finish in around 2 hours on my resurrected four year old laptop with 5-6 items in most of the slots, so I would call it fairly reasonable. Let me know if you continue to have problems, though, and I'll keep you posted on my progress.

Yeah good point -- I hadn't considered that, while we're manually editing Hit to be worth less than Strength, the orange gem will always be valued higher than they yellow. I'll ignore the yellows until such a time as the hit/str issue gets resolved.

Nothing gets saved in 2.1.1 for me. Well, it does get saved. It's just not being loaded.

The only thing I can think is that it has something to do with the . vs , decimal point debate. Are you using ',' as your decimal point by any chance? I've no problem saving at all on my US English system.

Tracked down and fixed. Should work fine in the next release.

Edit: It's tough for me to test the region stuff since I don't have access to a PC that is of a different persuasion :-P

It's more like always .
Your optimizer should tend to go slightly above Exp/Hit cap instead of below.

So going back the the ArPen issue: whose heads do we need to bang together here in order to get a better model for this stat? It used to be Methods doing the stat weights a while back -- is he still around? If not, who are the math guys around here who can properly get involved with this? Döc? Anyone else? It'd be good to try and get it sorted.

I mentioned this on the BiS thread, but I think it was lost in the midst of specific gear discussions:

Wouldn't crit rating have a different stat weight depending on the presence of 4 pc T9 bonus? Without the bonus, all crit would be valued less than it would with the bonus. I'm not sure that I'm smart enough to model it, but does anyone else share my view that a single weight for crit will not work?

Edit: I suppose this is dealt with by using the T9 bonus EP to represent the added value of crit, but then that bonus should have a sliding value dependent on your total crit rating, rather than a fixed EP number.

Zerack, I think there's an error in the stats for Shoulderplates of Trembling Rage. It should be 107 Str, not 115 (that's the Sta value).

I just ran the optimizer a few times. I used the Frost DW preset stats. I also ran using the stats from the first post on the revenge of the offhand thread. I found that unless I forced melee/spell hit it equipped me with ZERO +hit. As well as very little Expertise.

Is there anything I can PM/email you to help figure this out? Or was I doing something not quite right?

I also found the "Band of Draconic Guile" was not listed.

I also have a question about the weapon selections. It chose 2X bloodcrush cudgel over 2x Aledar's Battlestar. Is weapon speed wighting set up or enterable anywhere?

I am also curious if I can do anything to speed up the calculations? Is there a way to make the app multi-thread aware?