Zerack's DK Gear Optimizer v2.6.9 (03-MAR-2010) - Page 3

Asphyxialol · 08/25/09, 2:01 PM

The issue with only changing Armor Pen is that it is impossible in-game to increase armor pen to those levels without gaining and losing other stats. I am not sure simply editing the single stat would result in proper test results. Is there a way we can come upon an agreed upon set of generalized stats for the different brackets or something?

I can say that through my personal gear upgrades the more armor penetration I had the higher its weight became, but I have to keep in mind that with the upgrades I received with armor penetration on them also generally came with upgrades to other areas of my character as well...

Obviously 100% armor penetration would make a larger difference on someone in 2000 str, 750 crit rating, hit/exp capped gear than it would on someone with 850 str, 500 crit, hit / exp capped, or even my current stats, which are only about 1790 str, 620 crit, 148 haste, spell hit / exp cap, and about 290 arm pen without Runestone factored in.

Zerack · 08/25/09, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by Asphyxialol

Obviously 100% armor penetration would make a larger difference on someone in 2000 str, 750 crit rating, hit/exp capped gear than it would on someone with 850 str, 500 crit, hit / exp capped, or even my current stats, which are only about 1790 str, 620 crit, 148 haste, spell hit / exp cap, and about 290 arm pen without Runestone factored in.

Obviously the person with higher stats will see a higher absolute DPS increase from 100% ArP than someone with worse stats, but on a point for point EAP scale, how much difference will there be in the 1108th point of Armor Penetration for the two players? I'm really asking here, since I'm not that familiar with the math. DPS gain being not equal to EAP change in this case could mean that (with some approximation) we could arrive at something not perfect but more accurate than the current system.

On the other hand, I could be completely wrong in the above paragraph. You never know.

norg · 08/26/09, 6:29 AM

Diverting the topic away briefly: the rings section contains entries for Carnivorous Band and Gormok's Band. These are actually just the Alliance/Horde versions of the same item, so to avoid confusion it would probably be best to change them to the same name and give one a Heroic tag.

Ultimately I suppose it'd be best to give each item both its Horde and Alliance name, but that depends on whether you can be bothered there! It's not so bad for items where both versions have virtually the same name (ie. Planestalker Band vs Planestalker Signet), but as you have proved, it can get confusing when the equivalents have completely different names.

e: incidentally does anyone know if the separate item names thing is a trend they are planning to carry forward beyond the Coliseum loot? Because I must say it's made compiling these tables much more of a pain in the ass.

e2: also the Armbands of Dark Determination have the heroic and non-heroic stats the wrong way round.

Zerack · 08/26/09, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by norg

also the Armbands of Dark Determination have the heroic and non-heroic stats the wrong way round.

Are you sure? It matches mmo-champion's loot list on my end. The Heroic version has two sockets which drive down the stats in other places.

I'll fix the ring, though - good catch.

norg · 08/26/09, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Zerack

Are you sure? It matches mmo-champion's loot list on my end. The Heroic version has two sockets which drive down the stats in other places.

I'll fix the ring, though - good catch.

Ah yeah, my bad.

Calgar · 08/27/09, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Zerack

Yes, it does. To do some quick math:

I'm assuming you're using the Blood weights currently in the simulator, in which case Str = 2.82, Crit = 1.82, and ArP = 2.67.

For [Darkmoon Card: Greatness], you have a static 90 Strength. The proc is then worth 300 * 0.333, or 100 Strength. Total value of the DC:G is then 190 * 2.82, or 535.8.

For [Mjolnir Runestone], you have 102 static crit. The proc is then worth 665 * 0.183 ArP, which is 121.695 ArP. Total value of the trinket is 102 * 1.82 + 121.695 * 2.67, or 510.56565.

The conclusion is that DC:G is better than Mjolnir Runestone even for Blood with our current weights. If we weight ArP more highly then Mjolnir will pull ahead in fairly short order, since they are already close.

Alright. I wanna just double check something here, the bolded part in particular.

Stat x stat weight = value, adjusting for uptime obviously.
Base stats: 102 crit x 1.82 = 185.64 - Easy enough
Proc: 665 Arp x 2.67 = 1775.55, which now has to be adjusted by the uptime of 10 seconds every 45 seconds. So 10/45, or .2222 = 394.56

394.56 + 185.64 = 580.2. Which is clearly better then DC:G's value of 535.8.

I know the difference in our numbers is the uptime, you are using 10 seconds every 60, but it's 10 seconds with a 45 second ICD AFAIK. Am I not calculating this right? Does the ICD start from the end of the proc and you factored in another 5 seconds of padding for actually getting it to proc?

Especially considering how little ArP the BiS blood suit has, I'd imagine the runestone would be great.

Zerack · 08/27/09, 11:47 AM

The detail of this is in the proc chance of [Mjolnir Runestone]. It's listed at only 15% after its 45 second cooldown on Wowhead, so it's not actually up for 10 seconds every 45. As described in this post (link), the uptime is only going to be around 18.3%, which is what is used in the simulator. At that proc rate and the weights currently in the Blood set, DC:G still turns out to be better.

Now I'm not discounting that the higher value of ArP as more is accumulated doesn't cause this to be a little bit skewed. However, if you both assume that the weights are correct and trust the math on the proc uptime there (which I've seen supported by anecdotal reports within 1-2% of that number), then the comparison of the two trinkets is valid.

• frmorrison · 08/27/09, 5:25 PM

Originally Posted by norg

incidentally does anyone know if the separate item names thing is a trend they are planning to carry forward beyond the Coliseum loot? Because I must say it's made compiling these tables much more of a pain in the ass.

It is annoying, but I think they did it for flavor and to see how people reacted to it. I agree that makes things more complicated and hope it isn't used again.

Regarding the stat weight of ArP (that does not increase linearly and has a cap), a stepwise scale is better than a single value at all points.

norg · 08/28/09, 4:18 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

It is annoying, but I think they did it for flavor and to see how people reacted to it. I agree that makes things more complicated and hope it isn't used again.

Regarding the stat weight of ArP (that does not increase linearly and has a cap), a stepwise scale is better than a single value at all points.

It's fine for the set items or items that have a visual difference to differentiate between Horde and Alliance, but it seems fairly pointless applying it to rings and trinkets.

Incidentally I am still having issues with extremely slow calculation times. I always select a red gem, orange hit/str gem, and a Nightmare Tear. If I try and add a yellow hit gem to the mix the calc time increases from a few minutes to a few hours. This is having already changed the 'Hit (to melee cap)' weight to be below the strength weight, and with between one and three options per item slot.

Zerack · 08/28/09, 8:42 AM

Originally Posted by norg

Incidentally I am still having issues with extremely slow calculation times. I always select a red gem, orange hit/str gem, and a Nightmare Tear. If I try and add a yellow hit gem to the mix the calc time increases from a few minutes to a few hours. This is having already changed the 'Hit (to melee cap)' weight to be below the strength weight, and with between one and three options per item slot.

I'm in the process of re-writing the gemming to be hopefully more efficient and to deal with higher hit values gracefully, but in the meantime while we're still putting Hit To Melee Cap < Str, it's worth noting that there is no situation in which a Rigid cut gem (+hit) will be used over an Etched cut gem (+hit/+str) by the optimizer. When I run optimizations for myself with hit < str, I use Bold, Sovereign, Nightmare Tear, Etched, and Inscribed / Fierce (depending on crit > haste or haste > crit). I'm fairly certain that these five gems cover every gem that would ever be used in that situation.

Those calculations finish in around 2 hours on my resurrected four year old laptop with 5-6 items in most of the slots, so I would call it fairly reasonable. Let me know if you continue to have problems, though, and I'll keep you posted on my progress.

norg · 08/28/09, 9:44 AM

Yeah good point -- I hadn't considered that, while we're manually editing Hit to be worth less than Strength, the orange gem will always be valued higher than they yellow. I'll ignore the yellows until such a time as the hit/str issue gets resolved.

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/28/09, 12:30 PM

Nothing gets saved in 2.1.1 for me. Well, it does get saved. It's just not being loaded.

Zerack · 08/28/09, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

Nothing gets saved in 2.1.1 for me. Well, it does get saved. It's just not being loaded.

The only thing I can think is that it has something to do with the . vs , decimal point debate. Are you using ',' as your decimal point by any chance? I've no problem saving at all on my US English system.

dr_AllCOM3 · 08/28/09, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Zerack

The only thing I can think is that it has something to do with the . vs , decimal point debate. Are you using ',' as your decimal point by any chance? I've no problem saving at all on my US English system.

It's a fresh install and the only thing I've changed for testing is the race and a profession.
Edit: Seems to work, when I manually set region to 1.

Zerack · 08/28/09, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

It's a fresh install and the only thing I've changed for testing is the race and a profession.
Edit: Seems to work, when I manually set region to 1.

Tracked down and fixed. Should work fine in the next release.

Edit: It's tough for me to test the region stuff since I don't have access to a PC that is of a different persuasion :-P