Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 10

Bensch78 · 09/10/09, 4:59 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

Due to the fact that these changes hit the PTR very, very recently, in-depth theorycrafting on them has yet to commence. That said, napkin math is showing that these changes should be sufficient in pushing SS Unholy over Obliterate Unholy. The new spec of Unholy 2H dps will be something along the lines of either:

Epidemic Black Ice: This spec relies upon the new Glyph of Scourge Strike to change your rotation, essentially giving you an extra Scourge Strike and an additional GCD every 20 seconds at the cost of a Plague Strike and Icy touch over the same period.
Epidemic Bladed Armor: A remake of the old 12/0/59 build. Originally presumed to be inferior to the above Black Ice spec due to scaling reasons, there is some math showing that this might not be the case, and it may indeed be competitive.
Epidemicless Black Ice: In this build, you rely upon Glyph of Scourge Strike to allow you to drop your points from Epidemic, thus permitting you to max out Necrosis and Desolation.

There is no epidemicless version of the Bladed Armor build, since you have no place in Unholy to sink the extra talent points you gain - except, perhaps, IUP, but strictly speaking, that's not a dps gain.

[...]

With the Epidemicless build, your rotation will be identical to what it is now, simply Scourge Strike instead of Obliterate. With Epidemic, however, your rotation changes to the following:
PS - IT - SS - BS - BS - DC - HoW
SS - SS - DC - SS - DC
SS - SS - DC - BS - BS - HoW - DC
PS - IT - SS - SS - DC
SS - SS - DC - BS - BS - DC - HoW
SS - SS - DC - SS - DC

Consider, i could be wrong, but you are mentioning, that there is no epidemicless version of the Bladed Armor Build. Looking at your "Epidemic Bladed Armor" Build, i don´t see any points in Epidemic. Wouldn´t this fact turn this build into the epidemicless one?

Edit: The "Epidemic Rotation" with the new Glyph of Scourge Strike will result in a gain of 1 SS ( and 1 GCD) every 60 seconds at the cost of 1 PS and 1 IT. Not every 20 Seconds, as you mentioned. Quoted your "new" Rotation to show this.

Mild Confusion · 09/10/09, 6:36 AM

In the current build, 5 points in black ice in have been proven to be more than the blood off spec.

Giving up black ice loses damage on SS, DC, UB, and your diseases. Plus you lose AoE damage from DnD and blood boil.

With deep blood, you gain 4% more strike and white damage, roughly 450 ap, and 2 rp per 5 seconds (about 1 DC per 2 minutes).

Frost off spec loses 15% IT damage, 30 rp storage, and 10% damage to most of your damage. The 30 RP storage also matters on fights where you can absorb a lot of magic damage and that is about 1 DC every 1 minute instead of 2.

Also don't forget that 59 points will not let you keep maxed necrosis, epidemic, and desolation. You you either have to take a point out of desolation/necrosis to max epidemic and run the UB glyph or max necrosis/desolation and run SS glyph. The extra talent point can go to GF or IUP or something.

dr_AllCOM3 · 09/10/09, 9:00 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

Are you sure 12/0/59 is superior, however? Based on the past, I find that hard to believe - 0/10/61 was always accepted as ultimately scaling better (Black Ice + 3 extra points in Necrosis or whatever > Bladed Armor + 2H spec), and that was back in Ulduar.

(http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...2qsb,6QF,10048)
SS is better now and you use it more often, plus better weapons and a different sigil. The 2h spec is most likely the key talent.
Check for yourself, Afabar upped my sim changes already. Maybe I just made a mistake

.

Kaveli · 09/10/09, 9:04 AM

You will want at least the first three points in blood for subversion now that SS is on that as well.

Mild Confusion · 09/10/09, 9:17 AM

Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3

(http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...2qsb,6QF,10048)
SS is better now and you use it more often, plus better weapons and a different sigil. The 2h spec is most likely the key talent.
Check for yourself, Afabar upped my sim changes already. Maybe I just made a mistake

.

Ok, supposing that blood is the better offspec, this still goes back to what is better, an extra SS every 60 seconds or the dps that can come from different talents.

12/0/59 will still have to be compared with possibly 13/0/58.

Is 1 extra SS every 60 seconds worth more than IT + PS + maxed necrosis and 1 point in dark conviction?

Consider · 09/10/09, 10:45 AM

Oh, duh. Fixed the Bladed Armor build and seperated it into 12/0/59 and 13/0/58.

Just looking at the numbers the sim throws out 1 SS over 1 PS/IT every 60 seconds is about a 200 damage upgrade, or something rather low like that (I'm getting an average of ~6200 for SS, ~3400 for PS, and ~2600 for IT in a 12/0/59 spec. A frost subspec would simply push PS down and IT up). That's not even a 4 dps boost. Two more points sunk into Necrosis, however, is an approximate ~100 dps difference, so it's likely the latter is most likely optimal.

Anyways, it shouldn't be 2H spec which pushes Blood over. Scourge Strike, even with Subversion, is still less damage now than it was pre-Nerf, especially when you remember we'll no longer be using SoA like we used to, so it really isn't better now than it was. thus 2H spec should have lost value, if anything. Shadowfrost, on the other hand, may take that same hit - of SS having had it's damage nerfed - but it would have gained some value from the not-insignificant disease buff and 4p t9.

I don't know. Just doesn't seem to logically line up, not with how things previously scaled.

Running the sims myself, editting with results momentarily.

Edit: Or not! Unable to import talents at the moment due to something with Mmo? Thus unable to see where things stand. You can see where 12/0/59 is since it's one of the 'default' talent sets (and it doesn't change at all from how it was previously), and if you select the latest version of the PTR build in the talent screen, it will updated Subversion accordingly. You simply can't test specs not already there. For those concerned about losing dps in general, 120/59 is simming at ~7120ish, which isn't that different than what I get now (I am using my own gear). When you consider that dropping Epidemic will probably be a dps increase (for reasons shown above), whatever gap may currently exist is all but gone, so no worries in that regard.

Lucyford · 09/10/09, 10:58 AM

How does the value of Dark Conviction change compared to necrosis with 4pc t9?

In other words, how would a 17/0/54 variation on the epidemic-less bladed armor build scale in the sim, assuming a fix on 4pc t9?

Lucyford · 09/10/09, 11:15 AM

Well, a 12/0/59 or 13/0/58 would have to beat out a 3/10/58 for a 17/0/54 to even become viable, what with black ice boosting disease damage. On top of that, the 4pc would have to scale off player crit, so it is a long shot I suppose. I haven't read either way as to how the 4pc is supposed to work.

Consider · 09/10/09, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Mild Confusion

Someone will need to confirm this, but I don't believe the 4pT9 scales with crit, the crit rate of diseases is supposed to be a fixed rate.

If I'm wrong I will delete this.

You're wrong =p.

Simply add in, say, 1000 crit rating to a sim and run it with the bonus. You'll see your disease damage jump up significantly. I forget if it's based on melee crit or spell crit, but it shouldn't make any difference in regards to Dark Conviction (and make little practical difference in a raid. 10% spell-specific crit from raid buffs and debuff ~= 5% melee-specific crit from raid buffs + agility from raid buffs).

Currently 4pt9 is bugged and has some fixed rate (1%ish), but it was fixed on this latest version of the PTR.

Bensch78 · 09/10/09, 11:19 AM

A few quick sims show

12-0-59 Epidemic, UB-Glyph - 7161 dps

13-0-58 NoEpidemic, SS-Glyph - 7123 dps

12-0-59 Epidemic, SS-Glyph - 7044 dps

3-10-58 Epidemic, UB-Glyph - 7045 dps

3-10-58 NoEpidemic, SS-Glyph - 7019 dps

3-10-58 Epidemic, SS-Glyph - 6922 dps

With this results we should perhaps ignore SS-Glyph and go for UB-Glyph (With DD and Ghoul).

dr_AllCOM3 · 09/10/09, 11:24 AM

The sim uses melee crit, but it's just a guess. The bonus is broken and no one knows.
Did someone test it on the PTR? I'm two badges short of having it.

Consider · 09/10/09, 11:39 AM

Unfortunately, I don't have the set bonus on the PTR myself, so I'm unable to check if it's melee or spell. It definitely is scaling with gear, however, I can say that much from the numbers I've seen.

Originally Posted by Bensch78

A few quick sims show

12-0-59 Epidemic, UB-Glyph - 7161 dps

13-0-58 NoEpidemic, SS-Glyph - 7123 dps

12-0-59 Epidemic, SS-Glyph - 7044 dps

(ETC)

Look at it this way: UB glyph is essentially being shown as a 117 dps increase over the SS glyph. 117 dps is approximately 1.63385% of your total dps (117/7161). That means that 40% of your UB is giving you that sort of increase, so your total UB, glyph aside, is equal to that times 2.5 (40 -> 100), or 4.08462505%. UB is, obviously, 20% of your DC damage, meaning for UB to contribue that much, DC would have to be accounting for 20% (20.42313%, to be more precise) of your total damage.

Neither that DC percent or that UB percent seem anywhere near realistic, not unless you're still using SotVH.

And this math assumes that SS glyph is simply a 0 dps upgrade. Whatever upgrade it may actually be - 5, 10, 20 dps? - it scews the numbers that much further, making the boost you're getting from UB seem that much less reasonable.

Like I said, the only explanation I see is that you're using SotVH, you messed up somewhere, or the simulator is messing up somewhere. No offense, of course. The math is very simple and just doesn't follow, so it has to be one of the three.

Nothing against GoUB - I originally thought it had potential - but 8% of your DC damage (which is what GoUB essentially gives. Slightly less, in reality, but that's neither here nor there) is not going to be better than 8% of your auto-attack damage (which is what two points in Necrosis gives. Once again, slightly less, thank you partial resists). The exception being with SotVH, at which point it is very close and possible for the first to overtake the latter, yes.

Bensch78 · 09/10/09, 11:57 AM

I´ve done the numbers again with similar results.

Perhaps we should think about the possibility of the diseases dropping, before they are actually reapplied because of the exact 30 sec duration.

With Latency they will drop, before reapplied. Because of that the overall Dmg goes down. PS and IT do less dmg. Blood Plague and Frost Fever do less.

Glyph of UB is only 1.1% of my DMG actually. (12.7% DC DMG)

Consider · 09/10/09, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bensch78

I´ve done the numbers again with similar results.

Perhaps we should think about the possibility of the diseases dropping, before they are actually reapplied because of the exact 30 sec duration.

With Latency they will drop, before reapplied. Because of that the overall Dmg goes down. PS and IT do less dmg. Blood Plague and Frost Fever do less.

That makes sense for an Epidemic + GoSS build being inferior, hence why I didn't touch upon that. That does not explain an Epidemicless GoSS build losing to an Epidemic GoUB build - with the former you have 24 seconds of diseases, which is actually a tick longer than the latter.

Although, I do see what you could be saying - that it's showing Epidemic + GoSS as a dps loss relative to Epidemic + No Third Glyph, thus in the math I did I would be overvaluing the gain of Glyph of UB. That could be. Even so, however, going by what you say below:

Glyph of UB is only 1.1% of my DMG actually. (12.7% DC DMG)

It still doesn't quite fit. Two talent points in Necrosis (or 1 in Necrosis, 1 in Dark Conviction) is going to be superior to that by a moderate margin.

Antimortem · 09/10/09, 12:32 PM

I am wondering how GoD + SS glyph will fare. Using the same basic concepts from DW frost and wanting to spam OB, what about the same logic application here.

You will get a total of 30s of disease uptime from a single application of your disease after the first application rotation (15s base, 9s from SS glyph, 6 from epidemic). How is the refresh mechanic working since we are adding length to the disease via SS.

Does GoD refresh it back to 30s?
Back to 21s and then SS can add 9s to it again?
Back to 21s and since it was simply 'refreshed' via GoD the SS glyph cannot reproc?