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Old 12/11/09, 11:03 PM   #1576
kaze12
Glass Joe
 
Aein
Undead Death Knight
 
Thaurissan
Since arp now works for unholy. I was wondering if [Grim Toll] would be a better choice over [Pyrite Infuser] or [Vengeance of the Forsaken]

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Old 12/12/09, 12:06 AM   #1577
Consider
King Hippo
 
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Draenei Death Knight
 
Dragonblight
There is no typo in the ArP/Expertise stat weights. ArP does scale that well - just as well as it did previously. Expertise simply goes up in value as the new SS goes up in value.

I'm still not having Reaping showing as a dps loss in current gear - yours Griefknight, mine (which is almost identical to yours), a generic 258 set, anything. And it stands to reason that it's no dps gain: the quick math a few posts back about Reaping's value was pretty realistic. SS is hitting for an average of almost exactly 10k at this gear level. IT + PS is hitting for almost exactly 7.5k at this gear level, which is 42 (~0.47%) dps a talent point. BA and DC are both still superior, by a not so negligible gap.

If you can post (or PM me, all the same) some side by side sims of the two spec, I can probably figure out what's up, but as it is, I still remain unconvinced as whatever I do, I simply can't replicate such results - nor can others I know and trust. Most importantly, though, just doesn't hold up to logic.

Anyways, in another area, yes, GoSS + No Epidemic + Morbidity is certainly possible. If you check the armory, that's actually what Potlol is running. The difference between that and GoDD + Morbidity is 5% DC damage, 3 extra seconds on your diseases on your primary target (RoR, if nothing else), and 6 extra seconds on your diseases on additional targets verse 10 second less cooldown on DnD. I just don't consider the latter near as valuable for a spec which is intended for primarily single target. On what fight are you going to use DnD that often without actually swapping to an AoE spec (assuming you aren't using a generalized spec to begin with)? Even on a fight like HM Anub, I don't get the chance to use DnD more than once per add wave, which would actually render Morbidity all but useless.

On a lot of single target fights, you're still going to be Pesting, and Epidemic helps there. On a lot of single target fights, you'll occasional DnD, sure, but not more than every 30 seconds.

Such is my take on it, anyways, but different playstyles will vary.

Edit: To be clear on DC and additional RP, you do want to use it. Yes, of course, obviously. You simply don't want to use it past the inherent empty GCDs of the rotation (which is plenty). For RP to start getting wasted as such you would need to be receiving an additional 300+ RP per minute from AMS/Revitalize/Etc, which is quite unlikely. It's really nothing to worry about.

Last edited by Consider : 12/12/09 at 12:45 AM.

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Old 12/12/09, 1:53 AM   #1578
Owt
Glass Joe
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Tichondrius
This is probably a pretty dumb question, and I may just be doing something wrong however, here goes.

You list the stat orders of t8/9 as Hit > Strength > Crit Rating > ArP >= Expertise > Haste > Agility and then t10 as Hit > Strength > ArP > Expertise > Crit > Haste > Agility. Now, later on you have the list of when you should go with orange ( usually STR/Crit ) gems. Since Crit seems to plummet quite a bit once you drop 4t9 wouldn't that list change quite a bit once you go from t9 gear into t10 gear? Or am I just missing something?

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Old 12/12/09, 2:47 AM   #1579
Diello
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Death Knight
 
Cenarion Circle
Crit doesn't really go down in value. ArP and Expertise just go way up and pass it, but they are both red stats so that won't change gemming.

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Old 12/12/09, 3:04 AM   #1580
Lujaar
King Hippo
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
All melee hits can proc the Bryntroll's proc (BCB is a melee hit). It is affected by normal spell debuffs (Ebon Plague and 3% crit/hit), not spell damage, and cannot crit. It is also affected by all % damage increases, like Blood Presence, Ret Aura, Bone Shield, etc.
An additional note on Bryntroll, since it's bound to be asked a few times: The proc rate on the drain life effect is very high, something like 9-10 ppm counting procs from specials. I'm not working off a huge sample size but I have it as 3.3% of my DPS on Anub-25H and close to 5% on fights with less AoE.

I assume the high proc rate is intended, as the weapon has to make up for losing 0.2 swing speed compared to Cryptmaker (in addition to the item budget spent on the proc instead of stats). Obviously that's pure speculation though.

E: Minor correction, thought I had a purely single-target parse with Drain Life > 5%. Turns out I don't, and that was just an estimate based on parses with it doing 4.5%-ish where I also had a bunch of AoE damage. Anyway, proc is still good and probably about 5% DPS on a Patchwerk fight.

Last edited by Lujaar : 12/12/09 at 3:53 AM.

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Old 12/12/09, 3:13 AM   #1581
Kumduh
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Pruka View Post
Perhaps it is just me but I am using a spec with 3/3 reaping, 3/3 Morbitity, 4/5 Dark Conviction and my DPS on target dummies is 100 dps higher. Today, I went and tried both specs in OP as well as 12/0/59 and the old 17/0/54 and for me 16/0/55 is doing better. I did not run parses, just used recount and checked everything after each test. I did each fight for the same length, over the corse of 2 gargoyle summons with my pet assisting and that was my results. Each spec I would cast sequence the rotation so all I had to do was spam one button so I wouldn't fat finger anything or loose any time on a keypress.

Has anyone else done any live testing with the spec's to see if the newest specs in the OP?
I am also curious as to how much a change in dps there would be by using Morbidity instead of Necrosis. I started doing some testing on this but wasn't able to finish because a group moved in on my dummy and dropped it to 1 hp. Now I'm going to bed, hoping to pick up where I left off in the morning. I'd assume as you get more and more ArP and higher DPS weapons Necrosis would start to pull away by a decent margin.

Last edited by Kumduh : 12/12/09 at 3:40 AM.

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Old 12/12/09, 5:15 AM   #1582
chronomasakari
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Kilrogg
Originally Posted by Kumduh View Post
I am also curious as to how much a change in dps there would be by using Morbidity instead of Necrosis. I started doing some testing on this but wasn't able to finish because a group moved in on my dummy and dropped it to 1 hp. Now I'm going to bed, hoping to pick up where I left off in the morning. I'd assume as you get more and more ArP and higher DPS weapons Necrosis would start to pull away by a decent margin.
Not doing any heavy number crunching, but based on my number's on Saurfang from ICC 10 man, which is largely a no movement tank and spank with some occasional aoe off the beasts, given the encounter I don't believe I made too many errors off my rotation, which is identical to the one posted on the first page, though in a different order for no reason in particular. World of logs put me down for doing 77002 damage, while my death coils put me at a total of 180041 damage, which were 4.6% and 10.6% of my damage respectively. Just applying them to my numbers for yesterday, I would've goten 30800 off necrosis, for a gain of 15% to my death coil damage which would've been for about 27006, a difference of 3794 or 0.22% of my damage.

Even counting on the fact that I probably am not taking all factors that would effect those numbers into account, the amount is so small it's fairly neglible. I'm running 469 ARP and using non-heroic reckoning, which a fairly low weapon damage in comparison to a lot of other stuff out even before 3.3, obviously that number would scale higher with gear improvements

Given what I saw with the numbers, I'd probably spec into morbidity just because any situation where a shorter D&D CD would significantly improve my DPS, versus single-target where it's only slightly higher, I'd probably want to spec into Morbidity. I would have anyway, but I don't like the taste of respec'ing again after the many times I already have since 3.3 hit.

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Old 12/12/09, 6:06 AM   #1583
Shaqattack
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Area 52
Originally Posted by Liandris View Post
Hi Consider, in your OP, you said that it is worth replacing tier 9 with tier 10. However your APEs for 4xT9 and 2xT10 seem to suggest otherwise:

4T9 457.38
2T10 234.43

Should we not be holding off on tier 10 till we can get 4-piece T10, based on your APEs?
(Not the OP but...)
It would be safe to assume you would then have 2 piece of both t9 and t10, leaving only a gap of 76 ape on paper.
Then also taking into consideration your SS hitting harder with the two set and extra per rotation with reaping, plus the difference in stats (if it is 10.25 or 10.5) I think it would still be a safe upgrade.

Personally I will wait until I get a two set of (10.25 to replace 9.25) before equipping them so I don't lose the 4 piece, but that's just me.

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Old 12/12/09, 6:39 AM   #1584
Fugazor
King Hippo
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Chamber of Aspects (EU)
Originally Posted by Consider View Post
There is no typo in the ArP/Expertise stat weights. ArP does scale that well - just as well as it did previously. Expertise simply goes up in value as the new SS goes up in value.
I don't remember exactly pre-nerf values listed here of those stats but I am almost sure they were lower. Which leads me to question how those get even higher while they should go down after SS nerf.

Now about 4xT9 vs 2xT10 I really do not think that swapping 2x ilvl245 T9 to 2x ilvl251 T10 will make difference. It may be very well dps loss on any fight with aoe going on. 2x ilvl264 is probably worth it but then it will be hard to get until hard modes get open.

To get 4x ilvl251 T10 you need min. 310 badges, ouch

EDIT: Here are numbers I got using 17/0/54 spec:

Stat 4xT9 (245/258) 4xT10 (264)
AP 1.00 1.00
STR 3.10 3.10
Crit 2.20 2.00
ArP 1.90 2.30
Exp 1.65 1.75
Haste 1.80 1.85
Agility 1.50 1.40
Hit 3.95 4.10
SpellHit 0.80 0.80
Armor 0.03 0.03
2xT9 131 128
4xT9 417 479
2xT10 307 332
4xT10 402 429

Going for 2x ilvl251 T10 makes sense only when it will free up some hit/exp so you can fill those with better items and overall got upgrade. If it doesn't then it is only sidegrade on single target and dps loss on aoe. 4xT10, even ilvl251, is top priority but will take a while - if I am not mistaken we should have enough badges for 4xT10 around time when last wing of ICC is opened.

Last edited by Fugazor : 12/12/09 at 9:22 AM.

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Old 12/12/09, 8:27 AM   #1585
nashdude
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Death Knight
 
Burning Blade
Question

I would like to question the first post on "10 second rotations being the thing of the past" With the buff to scourge strike from 3.2 to 3.3, and the nerf afterwards, I was wondering if the 3.2 17/0/54 spec with 2 points into morbidity instead of epidemic be a better option than the 17/0/54 spec currently shown on the front of the thread?

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Old 12/12/09, 8:37 AM   #1586
Spiattalo
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Jaedenar (EU)
Dumb question: is it better to respect rotation and re-apply diseases when they have 3-4 seconds left or to prioritize in order to let them fall off before re-appliying them?

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Old 12/12/09, 8:53 AM   #1587
Nyth_
Piston Honda
 
Troll Hunter
 
Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by Spiattalo View Post
Dumb question: is it better to respect rotation and re-apply diseases when they have 3-4 seconds left or to prioritize in order to let them fall off before re-appliying them?
Ideally you want to reapply your diseases before they fall off, or you will lose ebon plaguebringer and Rage of Rivendare modifiers.

For that reason builds with 1/2 epidemic are not really an option. If you use your runes as they come available and prioritize them over RP dumps, you should be able to easily make that with 2/2 epidemic and a 20 second rotation.

Another option is of course Glyph of Scourge Strike instead of GoDD and drop 2 points out of Epidemic, basically you lose a glyph slot but gain 2 talent points and your diseases last 24 seconds instead of 21.
If you put those 2 points in morbidity, effectively you sacrifice 5% death coil damage for 3 second longer diseases.

If that means the difference for you between easily refreshing diseases and having them fall of before reapplying that seems worth it. Refreshing diseases without RoR and Ebon Plaguebringer up means you lose 20% damage on them. (Or at least on Blood Plague)

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Old 12/12/09, 9:41 AM   #1588
Fyrestryke
Von Kaiser
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
<SG>
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by Pruka View Post
Perhaps it is just me but I am using a spec with 3/3 reaping, 3/3 Morbitity, 4/5 Dark Conviction and my DPS on target dummies is 100 dps higher. Today, I went and tried both specs in OP as well as 12/0/59 and the old 17/0/54 and for me 16/0/55 is doing better. I did not run parses, just used recount and checked everything after each test. I did each fight for the same length, over the corse of 2 gargoyle summons with my pet assisting and that was my results. Each spec I would cast sequence the rotation so all I had to do was spam one button so I wouldn't fat finger anything or loose any time on a keypress.

Has anyone else done any live testing with the spec's to see if the newest specs in the OP?
1) Dummies (as has been said countless times before) are useless for testing.
2) Recount isn't working properly yet as far as I've seen. I didn't check last night, but there wasn't an update the day before. Use a sim for testing specs and gearsets. They're far more likely to be up to date on the new numbers right now.

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Old 12/12/09, 10:56 AM   #1589
Liandris
Glass Joe
 
Undead Warlock
 
<N/A>
Kul Tiras
Originally Posted by nerdfuel View Post
Yes, the 4pc T9 bonus is better than 2pc T10 bonus but the stats you gain by going from T9 to T10 make T10 2pc better. You should be upgrading to 2pc T10 as soon as you can.

I do understand that the increased stats would cover the loss in APE from losing the 4-piece bonus of T9. But it probably wouldn't be a priority upgrade to be grabbed as soon as possible. The APE value difference between 4xT9 and 2xT10 is (457-234) = 223, which offsets a chunk of the stats you gain. So if there are better upgrades available I would take them instead.

Say I were to replace a level 245 belt with a level 264 one, I would similarly gain 19 i-levels worth of stats, without losing out in terms of the bonuses, just to quote an example.

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Old 12/12/09, 12:31 PM   #1590
slacker0010
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Death Knight
 
Al'Akir
If I wanted to drop ONE single target glyph for glyph of disease, which glyph should i drop to lose the least amount of single target dps?

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