To be honest, looking at the loot list for BIS this time around it seems the most attainable as compared to prior seasons. Perhaps except for Shadowmourne, BIS consists of full tier pieces and all plate with DV, and 272 cloak from prior content.

With the exception of Deathbringer's will, as it on the outside seems more like a hunter/warrior trinket, I would say the rest of the items, at least 264 versions are VERY attainable. Just looking at the logistics of it however, there are a few items that drop from the same wing or boss which would make attaining those 2 or 3 a little more difficult but we have SEVERAL months to acquire these items. So in my opinion, achieving BIS, at least 264 mixed with 277, is not out of the question especially for any quality guild and as such, the EP values are incredibly relevant.

Nobody's gotten the bonus yet, so it's almost impossible to state a fact, however I doubt it would double dip again. At the very least the shadow portion will benefit from the physical portion's bonus.

Bone Shield wasn't active at the time of my test. I surmised the 2-handed spec is to blame simply because the proc is dealing about 5-8% more damage than I would expect on my Blood tests. However, I realized after you asked the question that my Unholy spec has 2h spec as well, so it's unlikely to be the cause. Something is proving a boost, though, and I know not what. My Unholy numbers were around 2500-2600 base, 2700-2800 with Desolation, right on target if 2-hand spec doesn't affect it. My blood numbers were stable at 2800-2900, though, roughly 8% more than it should be doing with just Blood Presence, and I'm not sure what might be the cause of that.

Edit: Ok, I'm a retard, I just remembered Blood Gorged's 10% boost, which would put the proc dead-on at ~2900 for blood. So final answer: unaffected by 2-Handed Weapon Specialization, unaffected by Bloody Vengeance, affected by Blood Gorged, and though I haven't tested it, likely affected by Bone Shield. Sorry for the confusion, finals week is mashing my brain to goo.

Unholy only squeaks out about 10% more dps from it, thoug. While their Scourge Strikes count double, they have less 'strikes' per minute than Blood, for example. In a normal rotation, they have 4 SS, 2 BS, 1 PS, 2 disease applications. Blood has 6 HS, 2 DS, 1 PS, 2 disease applications. With SS providing double, that still only gives Unholy a 2 proc chance per 20 second advantage over Blood. Beyond that, I doubt Blizz will nerf it because it's procing 7 times per minute for Unholy instead of the 6.6 for Blood. If they nerf it at all, it'll likely be for PvP, as even with Unholy or even Ret's numbers with it, it's still only a few dozen AP superior to the other weapons, and since proc weapons are often ignored outright due to their lack of static stats, I think Blizz would be happy to see one become one of the more sought-after weapons in the instance, especially because it has a unique skin and model.

Also, Ret has easily the highest proc chance on a single target, as the drain (from what I heard, don't have a ret with it to test) can proc from the application or refreshing of the SoV/SoC dot AND Righteous Vengeance. If that's the case, best-case scenario (no cooldown hitches) a Ret can have close to 90 proc chances a minute (15 CS, 6 DS, (15 CS + 10 DS + 10 Judges * 40% crit chance) = 10.8 RV, 18.18 Melee, and (15 CS + 10 DS + 18.18 Melee) = 39.18 seal) = 89.16. That gives a 10.1 PPM proc rate at raid baseline, though their lack of +damage increases from effects like Blood Presence means that's still only 441 dps at raid baseline.

Bone Shield certainly affects the proc (I have one on my Unholy DK thanks to a lucky roll).

Ret doesn't have the % modifiers DK has, but due to the higher melee hits Ret gets the most benefit (Fury/Arms gets the lowest benefit, due to no % modifiers and less melee hits). That said, the difference between Ret and DK procs with the weapon is less than 100 dps, so it wouldn't be noticed much in practice especially when DKs have more potential overall dps.

Given the current stat weights, I'm trying to figure out how to rank the following trinkets:

DM:C
Mjolnir's
Whispering Fanged Skull

From eyeballing them, I'm guessing WFS > DM:C > Mjolnir, but I'm really unsure if Mjolnir's pulls ahead of one of those. Has anyone already looked at this and been able to get a rough list of trinket rankings? The OP has done such a great job updating this thread that I hate to ask for more, but I doubt I'm the only one who'd love to see a table added that roughly ranks the competitive trinkets. All the BiS lists just give Death's Verdict twice, and the new ones list the Deathbringer trinket. My guild is 10-man strict, so I don't anticipate having access to either of those.


If it matters, I can reasonably expect to be sitting around 500 armor pen (not counting trinket procs) for at least the next month or two.


EDIT: Thank you very much, Burz, I would prefer to be self-sufficient.

To save work for anyone else interested in this question, here's what I came up with (partly taken from Consider's post about this later in the thread):

WFS: (131 x 2.1) + (1100/3) = ~642 AEP
Greatness: (190 x 3) = ~570 AEP
Mjolnir's: (102 x 2.1) + ((665 x 1.9) x 0.22) = ~492 AEP


So at first it looks like WFS and Greatness (STILL?!?) until hard modes unlock (and Greatness til Cata, assuming one can't equip both versions of WFS at once). But wait! At tier 10, arpen's value increases, making Mjolnir's worth ~638. So if you don't have access to 25-man trinkets, once you get a few 10-man hard mode drops, Mjolnir's should be better than Greatness.

You can do a simple trinket analysis for yourself which is far greater than having a table that lists the general benefits of trinkets as it makes you self-sufficient. Trinkets are very gear dependent as much as items are. Since some people dont understand how to evaluate trinkets Ill just post it out. A simple formula for trinkets would be as follows:
If it's 15s proc and 45s CD, then it's 15/45 uptime, or .333 The ICD starts as soon as the proc occurs, not when the effect ends. So your calculation should be:

Constant Stat value * EP of the stat = #### for the constant
(The proc * the EP value ) * uptime = ####
Then simply add these two together.

A simple example of something such as greatness would go like this:
90 * 2.94 = 264.6 for the constant
(300str * 2.94 T9ep value) * .333uptime = 294

And therefore totaling 558.6. (Thanks to Bjados for explaining this to me a while back)

Assuming this is mildly accurate depending upon the Bryntoll proc of course Thank you, appears Shadows edge excels a tiny bit and well shit many of us will want to have it equipped in ICC for the relatively long quest line.

I spoke with Consider when making the BiS sets, and we decided to exclude Shadow's Edge from the the set with the logical reasoning that there are few people who will get it if they aren't in line for, or don't expect to get Shadowmourne. At the time, we were under the impression that a whole different gearset would be required sans Shadowmourne, because the other weapons had either hit or expertise on them. Because it has been 'determined' that Bryntroll builds are superior to the previous sans-Shadowmourne build and the non-heroic build, it simplified the gearsets altogether, nothing would need to change, as Shadowmourne doesn't have hit/expertise, and neither does Shadow's Edge or Bryntroll. The fact remains, however, it is more realistic to assume, if you're not getting Shadowmourne, your 575 badges that are going to go to Primordial Saronite are better spent elsewhere.

I would imagine that as time goes on, we will see Shadow's Edge in the hands of many people who aren't really working towards a shadowmourne. It is essentially a expensive craftable, and as time goes on, saronite will become plentiful.

The only other use for saronite are 264 boots and legs. They get devalued because:
- They are in a tier item slot making set bonuses an issue (I would imagine very few if any classes/specs will get both crafted boots and legs)
- They are the same level gear as are available in what looks to be easy 25 man regular mode content
- The 251 and 264 tier piece purchase is required to get 277, so many people will want to purchase 264 tier pieces even if the crafted 264 is slightly better itemized

At the end of the day, the other uses for saronite will have limited popularity; and as mains cease needing badges, alts have more badges to convert to gold via saronite, and more people have already used the saronite they need, saronite will become reasonably commonplace. In a few months there are probably going to be an awful lot of people that can get their hands on 25 saronite and kill normal mode bosses than can reliably kill heroic Marrowgar. I would keep it on the list -- its really just a craftable that takes a few normal mode ICC kills.

Crusader orbs still get used today, even though it only makes 245 gear. People will always have a use for the saronite so it will not be that trivial to get 25 solo.

That said, Bryntroll is better than Shadow's Edge (according to my Rawr, maybe my model is wrong but I gain 6% more damage by the proc) by 200 dps. That may mean the proc is in for a nerf .

I fixed the missing cloak from one of the BiS lists (which I received, quite literally, a dozen PMs about). My apologies.

As to the Shadow's Edge/Bryntroll discussion, I did intentionally have Shadow's Edge excluded, but it really doesn't matter - Bryntroll is superior. The problem with the math Eruen did was that he used the BiS ArP weighting, which you can't do when trying to analyze the value of a 264 weapon. As such, when you put a more realistic ArP weight for that gear point, on top of the proper Bryntroll proc value (your number is about 100 lower than it should be), Bryntroll pulls ahead.

That said, if you are using Shadow's Edge anyways - because you're going for Shadowmourne or because Bryntroll hasn't dropped for you - the rest of the set remains the exact same.

I really don't see Bryntroll getting nerfed. Is it strong? Yes, but it's not like the 264 version is overcoming the 277 version of other weapons, or anything that ridiculous. It's simply above it's same ilvl counterparts by a small margin. The proc has to be potent, otherwise the weapon would be nothing but a gimmick at best.

Besides, there's always going to be one weapon which is better than the others at any given point. What does it matter if its a proc which makes it better as opposed to higher stats or a more desirable weapon speed?