Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 124

grimLox · 12/21/09, 8:06 AM

Has anyone done any extensive testing on the Stat Weight table? I ask this due to the fact that I have come across about 5 posters providing tests in which haste outweighs crit and Arp.

I realize that the stat weights for everyone differ according to current gear, however, this seems to be a large difference rather then marginal.

Italiandk · 12/21/09, 9:38 AM

Originally Posted by grimLox

Has anyone done any extensive testing on the Stat Weight table? I ask this due to the fact that I have come across about 5 posters providing tests in which haste outweighs crit and Arp.

I realize that the stat weights for everyone differ according to current gear, however, this seems to be a large difference rather then marginal.

I think Consider got his Stat Weights doing some random sims when he was clearly drunk so he didn't had a chance to do extensive testing on them... On a serious note I think before he posted those numbers he tried to sim them at least twice, and not only, the sims were made not only by him but also by other people, if I remember right, that got nearly the same results.

Originally Posted by dismaljester

I started with the 17/0/54 no Reaping and 5/5 Nec build. With that build my simmed dps with my current stats was 8369. I started moving points around to pickup Reaping. Most had negative results. Then I tried taking 2 points from BA and 1 from DC to get Reaping and to my suprise the simmed dps was 8440. Naturally I assumed I had input some information wrong so I went over it several times to check and recheck before giving it any credit. I could not find anything wrong. So I bring it here. Does anyone else get the same results with my current armory stats? If not are there any ideas what I may have done wrong with my simming?

It sounds a bit weird from my point of view because you still have 4p T9 and it has been prooved Reaping is a dps loss untill 2p T10; after all we are talking about two really weak talents so that could be the reason.

dismaljester · 12/21/09, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Italiandk

It sounds a bit weird from my point of view because you still have 4p T9 and it has been prooved Reaping is a dps loss untill 2p T10; after all we are talking about two really weak talents so that could be the reason.

Now that I'm home from work I just did some more testing with Kahorie's sim. I dropped some haste for more arp and str and get the same results. -2 BA -1 DC +3 Reaping = 8483 dps while the normal 17/0/54 is coming up with only 8322. That's a big gap, I'm still skeptical and assume I'm doing something wrong, but I can't figure out what it is.

Frostx · 12/21/09, 11:09 AM

edit: Incorrect data, delete.

Consider · 12/21/09, 11:31 AM

Reaping is certainly not a 200+ dps gain; not at your gear level, and most likely not at any attainable other. You must have messed up somewhere, somehow, although it's impossible to say when you don't actually post any numbers (!). For it to be a 200 dps gain, your SS would have to hit for 4k more than 2x BS (which is quite possible), on top of the damage lost from DC... which is not quite possible. Even if you peg DC at a lowish 50 dps/point, that would add 3k more damage to what your SS would have to be, and SS is not doing 7k more damage than 2x BS. That would be an average hit of 15k, practically.

Thus, no, your results cannot be logically correct. Reaping will eventually be worth it, yes, but even once it is, it won't be that huge of a gain.

At any rate, relatedly, this is why I would take a lot of those sims with odd haste values with a grain of salt. The simulator is a great tool, but it is very (very) easy to misuse, and one little mistake can destroy the accuracy of your results. And when a lot of these people post saying the sim showed them X or showed them Y without showing how they got the sim to arrive at that number, it makes it hard for anyone to see where they made a mistake (if they made one). That, and specifically in regards to haste, you can't use the automatic EP calculation for its value, as discussed in the past, as the sim does stupid stuff with it; you need to do it "manually", so to speak.

As well, as Italiandk says, yes, the stat weights (and everything else in the OP, for that matter) aren't just my work. I'm not quite that conceited!

dismaljester · 12/21/09, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Consider

You must have messed up somewhere, somehow, although it's impossible to say when you don't actually post any numbers

What numbers are needed to attempt to figure this out? The damage breakdown from the report maybe?

Italiandk · 12/21/09, 11:51 AM

dismaljester · 12/21/09, 12:42 PM

For 17/0/54

Ability| Total| %| Landed| Hit%| Crit%| Miss%| Average|
MainHand| 587960299| 19.6| 138579| 61.7| 38.3| 0| 4242.8|
Ghoul| 370996818| 12.4| 339329| 86.9| 13.1| 0| 1093.3|
DeathCoil| 299779908| 10| 56013| 60.2| 39.8| 0| 5352|
ScourgeStrikeMagical| 235812728| 7.9| 52947| 100| 0| 0| 4453.8|
ScourgeStrike| 233102151| 7.8| 52947| 46.5| 53.5| 0| 4402.6|
BloodStrike| 225131593| 7.5| 65804| 52.4| 47.6| 0| 3421.2|
BloodPlague| 220221747| 7.4| 107532| 61.6| 38.4| 0| 2048|
FrostFever| 192586600| 6.4| 107460| 100| 0| 0| 1792.2|
Gargoyle| 150840049| 5| 33884| 87.3| 12.7| 0| 4451.7|
WanderingPlague| 117716223| 3.9| 61176| 100| 0| 0| 1924.2|
Necrosis| 117595851| 3.9| 138579| 100| 0| 0| 848.6|
BloodCakedBlade| 92404564| 3.1| 41602| 100| 0| 0| 2221.2|
PlagueStrike| 67376288| 2.2| 17461| 55.6| 44.4| 0| 3858.7|
IcyTouch| 54397677| 1.8| 18263| 60.1| 39.9| 0| 2978.6|
UnholyBlight| 29976913| 1| 56013| 100| 0| 0| 535.2|
Horn| 0 | 0| 2573| 100| 0| 0| 0|
BoneShield| 0 | 0| 1190| 100| 0| 0| 0|
BloodTap| 0 | 0| 1103| 100| 0| 0| 0|
DPS 8322
Total Damage 2995.9m in 100h
Threat Per Second 4176
Generated in 47s
Template: deecay
Priority: Unholy
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Virulence
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True

For 14/0/57

Ability| Total| %| Landed| Hit%| Crit%| Miss%| Average|
MainHand| 580789940| 19| 138577| 62.8| 37.2| 0| 4191.1|
Ghoul| 369103588| 12.1| 339324| 87| 13| 0| 1087.8|
ScourgeStrikeMagical| 316584540| 10.4| 71792| 100| 0| 0| 4409.7|
ScourgeStrike| 312924613| 10.2| 71792| 47.5| 52.5| 0| 4358.8|
DeathCoil| 306562508| 10| 57721| 61.2| 38.8| 0| 5311.1|
BloodPlague| 226007060| 7.4| 108115| 62.4| 37.6| 0| 2090.4|
FrostFever| 193657857| 6.3| 108038| 100| 0| 0| 1792.5|
Gargoyle| 151963603| 5| 33937| 87| 13| 0| 4477.8|
WanderingPlague| 117242640| 3.8| 60206| 100| 0| 0| 1947.4|
Necrosis| 116156572| 3.8| 138577| 100| 0| 0| 838.2|
BloodStrike| 114736687| 3.8| 33621| 53.3| 46.7| 0| 3412.6|
BloodCakedBlade| 93785946| 3.1| 41602| 100| 0| 0| 2254.4|
PlagueStrike| 70312741| 2.3| 17924| 56.8| 43.2| 0| 3922.8|
IcyTouch| 53410702| 1.7| 18029| 61.1| 38.9| 0| 2962.5|
UnholyBlight| 30664804| 1| 57721| 100| 0| 0| 531.3|
Horn| 0 | 0| 3072| 100| 0| 0| 0|
BoneShield| 0 | 0| 1196| 100| 0| 0| 0|
BloodTap| 0 | 0| 1173| 100| 0| 0| 0|
DPS 8483
Total Damage 3053.9m in 100h
Threat Per Second 4275
Generated in 43s
Template: deecay
Priority: Unholy
Presence: Blood
Sigil: Virulence
RuneEnchant: FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation: True

Haides · 12/21/09, 12:46 PM

If the answer to this is in this thread, I was unable to locate it.
Concerning the stat-weights, weapon dps has a weight of 29.41 at ilvl264 gear. How exactly would I compare the difference between 2 weapons using that stat? For example, what is the "AP equivalence" number difference between a 3.4 speed weapon and a 3.7 speed weapon? Is the 29.41 calculated per 1 second or per 0.1 seconds?

I'm not sure I asked my question as articulately as I would have liked, but if you understand what I am asking a quick answer would be appreciated. If the answer is in the thread, please direct me to it.

Consider · 12/21/09, 12:50 PM

First issue I see is you used a priority instead of a rotation. With Epidemic builds, you need to use the latter (PS > IT > BS > SS > BS > DC > DC > SS > BS > SS > BS > DC > DC, sim wise). Set the rune abilities to retry 1, and DCs to retry of 0. With Reaping, it would be PS > IT > BS > BS > SS > DC > DC > SS > DC > SS > SS > DC, as far as the sim is concerned).

I'll look for any other problems, although that's certainly a large one.

Also when posting such numbers from the sim, use the table tags. Makes things much easier to read.

Edit:

For example, what is the "AP equivalence" number difference between a 3.4 speed weapon and a 3.7 speed weapon? Is the 29.41 calculated per 1 second or per 0.1 seconds?

It's 29.41 AP (or whatever the table says, depending on the gear point) per 0.1 second. Thus in such a case the 3.7 speed weapon would gain the equivalent of 88.23 AP over the 3.4 speed weapon.

When I do an edit later this evening (I've been slacking on them), I'll change it to say as much. By default, when doing the automatic EP calculations, the sim will give you a number per 1 second, but per 0.1 seconds is of more innate usefulness, as weapons will differ by 0.1 multiples.

Haides · 12/21/09, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

First issue I see is you used a priority instead of a rotation. With Epidemic builds, you need to use the latter (PS > IT > BS > SS > BS > DC > DC > SS > BS > SS > BS > DC > DC, sim wise). Set the rune abilities to retry 1, and DCs to retry of 0. With Reaping, it would be PS > IT > BS > BS > SS > DC > DC > SS > DC > SS > SS > DC, as far as the sim is concerned).

I'll look for any other problems, although that's certainly a large one.

Also when posting such numbers from the sim, use the table tags. Makes things much easier to read.

Edit:

It's 29.41 AP (or whatever the table says, depending on the gear point) per 0.1 second. Thus in such a case the 3.7 speed weapon would gain the equivalent of 88.23 AP over the 3.4 speed weapon.

When I do an edit later this evening (I've been slacking on them), I'll change it to say as much. By default, when doing the automatic EP calculations, the sim will give you a number per 1 second, but per 0.1 seconds is of more innate usefulness, as weapons will differ by 0.1 multiples.

ty for the quick response. When u do the calculations, what is it about the weapon speed that gives it the dps increase? I've always just assumed it is because the slower the weapon, the greater the the low-end and top-end damage. If this is the case, then is it safe to conclude that the stat is only meant to be used when comparing two items of equal weapon dps?

Frostx · 12/21/09, 1:10 PM

Silly me, I indeed had errors in my rotation file for non-reaping. It was BS BS SS instead of BS SS BS in the first cycle (overlooked that when I modified it from the reaping rotation). If it matters, the reaping rotation I used was DC Horn for first RP dump and DC DC for the second dump. I've since corrected it to as you've said.

I now get 8683 for non-reaping and DPS 8684 for the -2 BA -1 DC +3 Reaping spec. My apologies Consider.

dismaljester · 12/21/09, 1:13 PM

I tried it with the rotation instead of priority and got results more in line with what is expected. At least I learned more about using the simulator out of this.

Demøsthenes · 12/21/09, 1:27 PM

clipping when it comes to white swings, up until now i am not sure if it s an issue or not, but seeing as my gear score isn't much behind what some of these chart topping dk s are achieving i am noticing i about 2-3k behind some of the best in the biz. I am a clicker by nature and so when i get going it sounds much like a machine gun blowing up a mouse. I am wondering if this button smashing is perhaps leading to lower dps? in the form of possibly clipping white swings or anything? it is my belief this isn't possible due the fact most attacks are instant so i wouldn't imagine they could clip them but i am trying to look to discover how to raise my dps so its up there with some of the best.

GreyKnight666 · 12/21/09, 1:30 PM

Question for everyone. Using GoD is it better to stick with rotation refreshing diseases at the end of their duration or go with a priority and try to refresh them when you have procs active. I remember reading someone mentioning trying it, but does anyone else have any testing or numbers saying its a gain or a loss?