Unholy Dps | 3.3.5, King of Anything - Page 13

sweberry · 09/11/09, 4:18 AM

@Consider: Is there really a point to TCing/simming tens of different variations that you _think_ would be a nice change? I mean, it is what it is.

And while on the topic of the SS-glyph, all I see are simresults being posted. How is the sim handling the glyph? How have handled the rotation, could you post what the rotation/prio looks like? Just curious.

natoftw · 09/11/09, 4:41 AM

I have a question regarding Summon Gargoyle. Why does the pet sometimes melees my target, and some times it does what it is supposed to - casts spells. I had really huge differences on this one, sometimes the Melee portion of the Gargoyle results in 70%+ of its damage, and his melee damage is really bad, but sometimes it doesnt melee and all and really shines.

Mortak · 09/11/09, 5:39 AM

Considering maximum AoE dmg. We had the discussion about desolations poor uptime in AoE situations and non ideal situations where you have to move alot. In this case this specc could be interesting:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...QcOl,FQJ,10433

you could also shift 1 point from bladed armor in desolation. Or 1 point from bladed armor and 1 point from necrosis in IUP which i really would prefer for most encounters.

Tsurugi · 09/11/09, 5:46 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

New PTR build, here are the Unholy changes:
# Dirge no longer affects Obliterate.
# Subversion now also affects Scourge Strike.

Would that make 3/10/58 a good spec then ? Just thinking out loud, some feedback would be nice

Ignore the glyphs, still from old spec

sweberry · 09/11/09, 6:05 AM

I think the sim-results (that include a Black Ice-spec) are about one page, one click, from this. For you to look back at that is far less time-consuming (and space-consuming) than us answering it over and over again here because you felt you didn't have time to check.

EDIT: Granted, your spec is slightly different from the BI-spec tested earlier but I do recall statements about BI-specs overall not being competetive right now.

Consider · 09/11/09, 8:19 AM

As to a point from Desolation to Bladed Armor, I was considering that. Although it is, quite obviously, a single target dps loss (currently simming how much), like you said, it is an AoE damage gain (so long as it's worth BBing over BSing), and if the whole reason you're going 16/0/55 over 11/0/60 is because of the slight loss in single target damage for AoE damage, it's quite likely you'll just want to go 17/0/54.

Loss of about ~6 dps (relative to 16/0/54) and ~14 dps (relative to 11/0/60).
(7508 with 17/0/54 and 7514 with 16/0/54. Looking back to my post yesterday, 7508 is actually what I got for 16/0/54, meaning the two are within the RNG margin of another. )

The AoE gain is difficult to calculate since it all comes down to how many targets, but it is definitely a gain in any situation where you BB over BS. Most likely a fairly decent gain (when compared to how little you lose).

Just one caveat, obvious as it may be - 17/0/54 (and 16/0/55) essentially require 4pt9. Although they are still AoE dps gains without it, the gain is much smaller, while the single target loss is much larger, so I doubt many would consider it worth it until the set bonus. Until then you will want to go either 11/0/60 (with 4 points in Bladed Armor, not 3 in BA and 1 in Dark Conviction) or 12/0/59 (maxed BA, 4/5 Nec), the former being slightly stronger for single target, the latter winning for AoE.

Originally Posted by sweberry

@Consider: Is there really a point to TCing/simming tens of different variations that you _think_ would be a nice change? I mean, it is what it is.

As I said, just was curious, nothing more or less ^^. Just was wondering if it's possible for GoSS to be an upgrade in any disease refreshing/extending manner, or if it's going to always lose out until they go in a completely different direction with it. I know it is what it is, hence all of the previous sim results which didn't even entertain the possibility.

And while on the topic of the SS-glyph, all I see are simresults being posted. How is the sim handling the glyph? How have handled the rotation, could you post what the rotation/prio looks like? Just curious.

The sim handles it as a priority, and the exact same priority as you would have without the glyph (Blood Plague > Frost Fever > DC if RP capped > SS > BS > DC > Horn). That does mean that diseases fall off before you reapply, most likely (at least BP), but that's no different than without the glyph, so it wouldn't favor one spec over the other.

EDIT: Granted, your spec is slightly different from the BI-spec tested earlier but I do recall statements about BI-specs overall not being competetive right now.

All the possible variations of the BI spec I tried failed to compete. That said, I didn't try Epidemic-less builds for the AoE reasons - even so, if going the Epidemic-free route is ideal on a single target, it would still be better to 'minor' in Blood. Black Ice simply doesn't scale as it used to.

Edit: Currently working on 17/0/54 stat weights, as I see that being the spec most people will use in BiS. Once those are done, I'll also do 11/0/60 and 12/0/59, as the latter seems best pre-4pt9 in AoE (with only the single digit dps cost on a single target), and the former seems best in single target (although only slightly so at the cost of AoE, as already discussed a bunch of times). Those are probably the three specs I'll be including in any depth come patch day on the OP, unless something changes, someone sees a possibility which everyone else missed, or someone has a real good argument for including something else.

testament0221 · 09/11/09, 10:44 AM

So with the recent changes to Unholy, what the heck are we supposed to do with all this ArP gear? At least with an Oblit based UH build, ArP was useful. Now, it's gonna become one of, if not our lowest dps stat, what with it only affecting BS and our white damage. I'm currently spec'd blood, so I've made a point to get ArP gear. However, I'm close to getting 4pc/Sigil, so I'm thinking UH might be the better choice for me. But man it's gonna be painful having all this ArP gear going to waste.

Consider · 09/11/09, 12:38 PM

ArP isn't a waste. I mean, it's about on par with agility! Which means picking it up is like picking up a leather piece, almost, except without the side benefit of five dps stats instead of four =/.

17/0/54 stat weights:

EP:50	AttackPower	1
EP:50	Strength	3.02
EP:50	Agility	0.89
EP:50	CritRating	1.93
EP:50	HasteRating	1.46
EP:50	ArmorPenetrationRating	0.95
EP:50	ExpertiseRating	1.68
EP:50	BeforeMeleeHitCap<8%	3.05
EP:26	AfterMeleeHitCap	0.54

Set bonuses are still being calculated - not that it matters, since this spec would only be used post-4pt9.

On the plus side, crit is up in value, but that's more due to diseases critting than anything else, and as such isn't too SS/patch specific (although SS's larger crit modifier does help). On the down side, ArP is (obviously and expectedly) way down in value, and haste loses a bit of it's attractiveness (due to no Necrosis).

Nothing surprising, really. I'll probably be done with the other stat weights later this afternoon/some time this evening, but if anyone wants to calculate a BiS set, these are the numbers you (probably) want to be using, at least for the time being.

In other news, in the blood thread they've been doing some 4p t9 testing, and WP (what WP has to do with Blood is past me, but whatever!) will do double damage if the tick it procs off was a crit. Which makes WP all that more essential and all that much more of a dps boost. The sim was already making this assumption from what I could tell, but regardless, confirmation is always a plus.

Grigori · 09/11/09, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by Consider

Curious. Even without the 9s restriction, you would still have to refresh diseases eventually, I suppose, which would explain why it's still not worth it. At 5 (assuming you don't have to IT/PS) SSes per 20 seconds, you're only extending it by 15 seconds, meaning you're losing time on the debuff regardless.

Any which way, even if they made the glyph give 6 seconds to your diseases without a cap (or, for simplicity's sake, just make it work like Glyph of Disease - except it would be better due to not causing you to lose a BS every 20 seconds), thus allowing you to never have to reapply IT/PS, it would still have the AoE issue (which I so overlooked at first glance). Going the GoD route would be interesting, though, and could have potential...

Speaking of that, I'ld be curious (if you have the time and/or inclination) if you could calculate what sort of dps that would be - if GoSS essentially read something along the lines of, "Your Scourge Strike ability now refreshes disease durations on your primary target as well as any target within 10 yards back to their maximum duration" where it followed the exact same mechanics of GoD, except with the 10 yard addition to get rid of the pesky AoE issue the current glyph causes.

Another alternative would be if they caused GoSS to simply refresh Blood Plague to max duration (and BP alone). What that would cause you to do is then substitute a PS for a Ghoul Frenzy every 20 seconds. With a slight change to Ghoul Frenzy (lower the duration to 20 seconds, slightly buff the haste - or cause the haste to also apply to you, perhaps, to a lesser degree? - or make the haste also increase the rate at which the Ghoul regenerates energy), it would actually make GF worthwhile, while also giving GoSS its place.

At any rate, the GoSS change was simply a means to an end, and the end was reached regardless. Although it being viable would be nice, it's not all that big of a deal, as there are plenty of worthless (or suboptimal - one in the same, to most people) glyphs out there.

Changing GoSS to work like GoD will add some DPS due to the "high-proc disease rolling" effect (including RoR for BP), which, in addition to the higher effective disease uptime, may end up being pretty close to GoUB in practice. The SS substitution aspect of the glyph will still be a bust, though. The problem isn't so much that the glyph doesn't let you make enough SS substitutions; the problem is the SS substitutions themselves just aren't worth that much (if anything at all).

With the numbers for Bensch78's gear selection from his last post, without the higher effective disease uptime, substituting SS for PS+IT+5rp is actually a DPS loss before even counting RoR. With different gear selection, you can get a very slight gain per SS substitution (instead of a loss in Bensch78's case), but the most you can get is 1 substitution per 20 sec, so unless the gain from 1 substitution is substantial (which it isn't), you just won't get much of a gain.

I don't know what "the end" is for Blizzard. If it's to get Unholy not to use OB, then it's reached; if it's to do so without netting a DPS loss for 2H Unholy, then it's still a good glyph away as far as I can tell. If you give Blizzard devs the benefit of the doubt and assume they aren't bad enough to overestimate a flat change like adding SS to Subversion, then judging from Ghostcrawler's comments, they are aiming for the latter, but overestimated the gain from the new GoSS.

crazy dodo · 09/11/09, 1:45 PM

Can someone link the 16/0/55 build discussed here as the one linked on the first post has 5/5 Necrosis and 0/5 Desolation while Consider is talking about no Necrosis.

Also I'm curious how 1 point in Bladed Armor compares to 1 point in Necrosis/Desolation with say 232 T9

Another thing I've noticed is that noone bothers with Corpse Explosion (I know we're pretty tight on talent points already) but as far as AOE I've had some great success with it in the past, topping charts over mages/rogues and pretty much everyone else. Granted it's a complete waste for single targets/small groups and in the current end game content it's utility is limited, but if we see a return of Naxx size groups in Icecrown would Corpse Explosion ever make it to the must have list or is it still inferior due to the single target dps loss?

Fellow.Canadian · 09/11/09, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by crazy dodo

Another thing I've noticed is that noone bothers with Corpse Explosion (I know we're pretty tight on talent points already) but as far as AOE I've had some great success with it in the past, topping charts over mages/rogues and pretty much everyone else. Granted it's a complete waste for single targets/small groups and in the current end game content it's utility is limited, but if we see a return of Naxx size groups in Icecrown would Corpse Explosion ever make it to the must have list or is it still inferior due to the single target dps loss?

In terms of clearing trash ya it was nice, but these forums aren't about trash clears. On boss fights it's essentially useless as there is generally no available corpse to explode but your own ghoul. It's been proven in the past that exploding your ghoul does not make up for the DPS loss of having no pet while you wait for the CD to summon another one. Also for consideration is the fact your ghoul will have been buffed before a boss pull which means your next ghoul will do less damage since it doesn't have the buffs. Virtually all DKs skip this talent because the situations where it might be useful are so far and few between that the point is better served elsewhere. This could change for Icecrown, but since we know nothing about it yet speculation is not worth the time.

Orothar · 09/11/09, 2:00 PM

The problem with Corpse explosion is that its hardly usable om ulduar / totc bosses. The only boss i could regularly use it on was Hodir. Freyas mobs are elementals, Razors dwarves die to fast to be aoe'd and its only groups of 2/3, mimirons adds are mechanical and thats about it...

U can take it to boost dps on trash if you like, but it wont help on any boss. I havent done anub 25 HM yet, maybe its good there.

*edit: damn you canadian for being faster then me.

srry for the double info*

slant · 09/11/09, 2:56 PM

We've discussed this before in earlier threads. Corpse explosion is nice on Razorscale P1, Thorim arena, and a ton of trash. It's not worth taking for boss encounters alone unless your guild is having real trouble in thorim's arena, and frost builds with howling blast are better there anyway. It's not a mathematically worthwhile talent, so you don't see it discussed on the EJ forums very often, but I do take it myself. I find it a lot of fun to use, and while it doesn't help progression one bit I get a thrill out of being #1 on trash pulls.

Kyosujin · 09/11/09, 3:58 PM

Depending how much you use Army of the Dead, Corpse Explosion could find a use there when they die. Still too situational in my opinion but still a viable use.

Consider · 09/12/09, 1:46 AM

You all speak as if you can't top AoE meters as an Unholy DK without CE >>.

Really though, although you are free to take it (take the point from the same talent you would take points for IUP/GF from), it's obviously not a boost on single target, and I don't consider it to be one on AoE, as AoE outside of bosses is largely irrelevant. Trash is cool and all but it's nonexistent in the current tier of raiding (and even were it, the spell simply has too many limitations for little of a gain). Fun it may be, but optimal in the vast majority of situations it is not.

Also I'm curious how 1 point in Bladed Armor compares to 1 point in Necrosis/Desolation with say 232 T9

Desolation > Necrosis > Bladed Armor (for single target)
Bladed Armor > Necrosis > Desolation (for AoE situations)

In a situation where you aren't completely AoEing but you are simply using Pestilence (meaning you are not bothering with DnD or Blood Boil. Probably something like Faction Champions) Desolation easily pulls ahead of Necrosis, and may pull ahead of Bladed Armor (depends on your gear level).

I put in a "food chain" for those three talents (plus Dark Conviction) in the OP, for both single target and AoE situations, so people experimenting with specs have an idea where each talent lies in relation to one another and why some of the trade offs are made. I also added the remainder of the stat weights to the OP (the ones I posted + the weapon dps/speed results + the set bonus results).

I double-checked the specs, and there should be no errors in them; they're exactly what has been being talked about. I'll probably change around the spec section tomorrow. The best way to think about speccing in 3.2.2 is as going 7/0/53 with the remaining 11 points being spec in the various combinations depending on your gear (whether or not you have 4p t9, essentially) and whether you want to min-max your single target damage as much as you can for the AoE loss(es).

Also added in the new BS nerf, although it hardly affects us (4 -> 3 charges baseline, 2 -> 1 charge from the glyph).