For fights where there's no danger of stacks falling off it's always been the case :<
That's imo a bad way of deciding which trinket to use, almost all fights in ICC require some movement, and a lot of time if your trinket procced when you have to move, the proc is as good as wasted, in fights where there's no movement...well the stack of HWT won't fall off anw.
Even on fights involving movement, HWT only requires damage done to a target... I can't think of very many instances where - even if moving - I'm not doing damage to some target. Basically, I'm curious as to whether the near constant AP proc paired with haste is indeed better than the sheer crit with a chance to proc AP (given these new stat weights)...
and a lot of time if your trinket procced when you have to move, the proc is as good as wasted
And most of the time on a random fight you will be moving while proc trinkets are on cooldown, effectively increasing their uptime while you are actually in melee range dealing damage.
EP AttackPower | 1 (0.74 DPS/per AP)
EP Strength | 3.19
EP Agility | 1.41
EP CritRating | 2.05
EP HasteEstimated | 3.11
EP HasteRating1 | 3.22
EP ArmorPenetrationRating | 2.95
EP ExpertiseRating | 1.89
Personal Expertise value | 0
BeforeMeleeHitCap<8% | 3.57
EP SpellHitRating | 0.4
EP WeaponDPS | 7.84
EP WeaponSpeed | 256.76
EP 2T9 | 168.06
EP 4T9 | 418.06
EP 2T10 | 244.44
EP 4T10 | 422.22
After running kahorie's sim I'm getting that which makes haste better than str with a 0/17/54 spec. I had to go in there and change the default 0/17/54 talents to change it from 2/3 morbidity to 0/3 morbidity and 5/5 necrosis. But anyway am I seeing that correctly that haste is overtaking str? Or am I doing something wrong in that sim. Going to be quite annoyed if I have go back and change my gems to haste and get lower dps and have to regem it back to str =/. But anyway anyone else having these similiar results?
Isn't Haste's value increased by stats such as Armor Pen and Strength? I think the arguement is between the value of Haste vs. Crit, not Strength. I would try removing the sum of Strength that you have gemmed currently and find stat weights based off of the Strength/ArPen levels provided by your gear alone if you want to see if gemming pure Haste would be a dps increase (which I don't think would be the case) over gemming Strength/Haste.
Why is the Ahn'kahar Onyx Neckguard not used over Lana'thel's Chain of Flagellation in the best-in-slot with Shadowmourne table? I'm getting 763.56 for the neckguard (20 str gem) and 721.8 for the chain (10 str 10 hit gem), using the stat weights for 277 Frost SM. The difference per hit/str gem (which you would use with Lana'thel's to reach melee cap) over a str/haste gem (which you would use with the neckguard because it nearly caps you) is 7.3, multiplied by 5 (to account for the other 50 hit on the neckguard) is 36.5.
763.56 - 36.5 = 727.06 > 721.8
Although, if you use the Icewalker enchant, the neckguard would give you an extra 10 hit toward the spell hit cap, which would push Lana'thel's over. So I guess my question is, Ahn'kahar Onyx Neckguard is better if you plan to use Nitro Boosts, correct?
This: BiS with AON or this: BiS with LCF
You would then be at 261 hit, which would be 2 away from melee capping your ghoul. I doubt replacing a Fierce Ametrine with an Etched Ametrine in that setup (2 melee hit + 8 spell hit against 10 haste) would be worth pushing your ghoul from 7% to 8% hit?
I've just been thinking about this for quite some time, now that BiS gear is not so far away.
Anhkahar socketed red has 20 strength, 60 hit and 68 crit over Lanathel. Lanathel socketed orange has 14 strength, 10 hit, 73 ArP and 52 expertise over Ankahar. If you cancel out the redundencies and then assume that a person using Lanathel simply replaces the appropriate number of Fierce gems with Etched gems, it comes out to 50 haste, 68 crit, and 6 strength compared to 73 ArP and 52 expertise.
Using the SM stat weights that's 50 (2.97) + 68 (2.11) + 6(3.11) = 310.64 verse 73 (2.87) + 52 (1.97) = 311.95.
Lanathel barely edges out, but it does win, even as an Engineer. You really could use either though. 1 AP isn't even 1 Dps. I would personally prefer Lanathel for the added expertise, myself.
As far as haste being above strength, no numbers I ran - even with absolute BiS/orc racials/ideal professions/etc - could get haste over str. The gap became incredibly small, sure, but none showed it going over, no matter how much tweaking I did. Even if I did mess up, which I doubt, and you're numbers are correct, which I also doubt, and you ignore the multi-target aspects it still wouldn't be worth gemming all haste due to the mentioned scaling issues. EP simulations add the stat to calculate the value. It doesn't subtract it. So, yes, 100 extra strength might not be quite as strong as 100 extra haste, if you're numbers are to be believed. But trading 100 of your current strength for 100 of your current haste isn't the same thing, and the strength is going to be more valuable due to how it impacts every other stat.
That's a large part of the reason why one can only get so specific with EP numbers. Aside from the obvious fact that it's impossible to account for every single factor (many of which may vary from person to person, raid to raid, and so forth), it's also impossible to get one single value (even if you could account for all those previous values) and be able to apply it equally in every situation. Trading stats simply isn't the same as gaining stats.
This is especially problematic when trying to determine a BiS set. You need stat weights in the BiS set to generate a BiS set, but to generate those stat weights you need to already know the BiS set. It's completely circular. In the end, you have to make certain assumptions, and then just accept that things might not be 100% accurate, but the difference (if there is any) between that and reality is incredibly small, and that it's the best you can come up with, so you'll run with it.
I could go on and on - and probably have more than I should, so I'll be quick - but it's one of those things which is very important to understand if you are trying to min-max; you can try you best to do so, but you can never entirely do it (not with being able to prove that you've entirely optimized your gear/gems/etc). Those necks are a perfect example; when two items are a 1 AP difference there are so many assumptions along the line which could push one or the other on top. In the end, simply accept that it honestly doesn't make any difference which is better, that you're never going to know which is completely better, and that likely there isn't one which is better than the other in every situation.
It's the reason why the threads here on EJ are never-ending, even when you ignore patch changes and the like.
Anyways, rambling aside, when in doubt run two simulations, changing nothing but the gemming or the item in question. It's one's best bet in such cases - be it when comparing those two necks or comparing those two gemming methods.
Going slightly offtopic and back to that old discussion of blood vs UH single target, Decaying reported a very impressive Festergut kill this week as Blood 2h with SM (having slightly inferior gear to most of the top UH reports).
Now, I understand it's a bit offtopic, but did you run any simulations of SM UH 2h vs SM Blood 2h? I did so, but I don't trust my data (as Blood comes out with a too big lead compared to nonSM data, and more importantly, to the statistical evidence of the last months).
As a reference, I've got UH 2h BiS simming between 14.5 and 14.9, and Blood 2h shooting upwards of 15.6k.
12 weeks without a Sigil of the Vengeful Heart drop and counting.
Something seems off about that Expertise value for sub-spec Frost. Considering how important our white/bcb/necrosis damage is, I would think the value of Expertise would be higher than 1.5. Losing a melee/bcb swing to a parry or dodge is damage we simply lose, unlike a parried/dodged Scourge/Blood Strike which we can simply recast. The recent simulator update showed that Haste should be valued much higher than it was before...Im wondering if the same thing is happening to Expertise (ie, its being valued too low).
Few days ago I get [Shadowmourne], testing the weapon I realized that the chaos bane proc crit rate It's extremely low, around 2-3%.
I think a higher crit chance of the proc increases the value of the /cancelaura macro a lot, but the question is, has the [Shadowmourne] proc a independent crit chance, I'ts bugged (I have 27%~ spell crit and I'm getting 2-3% crits on the proc) or what happens?
Seems like a bug similar to what we saw with some of the tier 9 set bonuses, I haven't seen any official responses to it though. There's not a huge number of people with SM out there, so it's probably worth trying to draw some attention to it on the official boards.
So, this afternoon I was bored and decided to run a few sims seeing if Herkuml War Token was indeed an upgrade, or just a waste of badges. I soon discovered that on your average non-movement fight, it's a waste of badges. Here's the proof:
Your average fight is less than 5 minutes nowadays, so I used the value .0833333333333 for the amount of time, which is 5 minutes.
Ability
Damage done
hits
Crits
Misses
Glances
Uptime
Total
%
#
Avg
#
%
Avg
#
%
Avg
#
Avg
#
%
Avg
%
MainHand
854988
20.3
142
8636.2
54
36.7
4799.7
45
30.6
9994.9
5
3.4
43
29.3
3396.1
ScourgeStrike
449461
10.7
52
8643.5
30
57.7
5504
22
42.3
12924.5
DeathCoil
395456
9.4
51
7754
31
60.8
5537.2
20
39.2
11190.1
Ghoul
368815
8.8
302
1691.8
184
60.9
1190
34
11.3
2355.6
84
27.8
830.6
BloodStrike
321529
7.6
69
4659.8
40
55.6
3254.6
29
40.3
6598.1
3
4.2
FrostFever
286439
6.8
107
2677
107
100
2677
115.9
ScourgeStrikeMagical
248648
5.9
52
4781.7
30
57.7
3042.9
22
42.3
7152.7
BloodPlague
240231
5.7
107
2245.1
107
100
2245.1
116.5
Gargoyle
205564
4.9
35
5873.3
32
91.4
5423.7
3
8.6
10669
Necrosis
166114
3.9
142
1169.8
142
100
Ghoul: Claw
139698
3.3
75
1862.6
65
86.7
1767.3
10
13.3
2482.2
BloodCakedBlade
137493
3.3
42
3273.6
42
100
3273.6
WanderingPlague
131188
3.1
55
2385.2
55
100
IcyTouch
96995
2.3
18
5388.6
9
50
3535.4
9
50
7241.8
PlagueStrike
85530
2
18
4751.7
13
72.2
3477.5
5
27.8
8064.8
Army of the Dead
44501
1.1
231
192.6
190
82.3
192
41
17.7
195.7
UnholyBlight
39537
.9
51
775.2
51
100
DPS
12022
Total Damage
4.21m
in 0.0833333333333333h
Total runic power used: 2160 (0 wasted)
Threat Per Second
8261
Generated in
0s
Template:
Unholy 00-17-54
Rotation:
Unholy-ReapingLess
Presence:
Blood
Sigil:
Virulence
RuneEnchant:
FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:
True
^The above is Darkmoon Card: Greatness over a 5 minute period.
Ability
Damage done
hits
Crits
Misses
Glances
Uptime
Total
%
#
Avg
#
%
Avg
#
%
Avg
#
Avg
#
%
Avg
%
MainHand
868745
20.7
148
8601.4
55
35.5
4761.3
46
29.7
9806.3
7
4.5
47
30.3
3314.5
ScourgeStrike
445875
10.6
52
8574.5
30
57.7
5443.2
22
42.3
12844.5
DeathCoil
386922
9.2
51
7586.7
31
60.8
5443.1
20
39.2
10909.3
Ghoul
374912
8.9
321
1630.1
194
60.4
1141.9
36
11.2
2254.1
91
28.3
793.7
BloodStrike
317799
7.6
69
4605.8
40
55.6
3230.9
29
40.3
6502.2
3
4.2
FrostFever
281871
6.7
107
2634.3
107
100
2634.3
115.8
ScourgeStrikeMagical
246671
5.9
52
4743.7
30
57.7
3009.6
22
42.3
7108.3
BloodPlague
237658
5.7
107
2221.1
107
100
2221.1
99.4
Gargoyle
201890
4.8
37
5456.5
34
91.9
5057
3
8.1
9984
Necrosis
168777
4
148
1140.4
148
100
BloodCakedBlade
142854
3.4
44
3246.7
44
100
3246.7
Ghoul: Claw
134215
3.2
75
1789.5
65
86.7
1705.6
10
13.3
2335.4
WanderingPlague
129415
3.1
55
2353
55
100
IcyTouch
95423
2.3
18
5301.3
9
50
3473.3
9
50
7129.2
PlagueStrike
86933
2.1
19
4575.4
14
73.7
3419.6
5
26.3
7811.8
Army of the Dead
46354
1.1
247
187.7
207
83.8
194.2
40
16.2
153.9
UnholyBlight
38700
.9
51
758.8
51
100
DPS
11992
Total Damage
4.21m
in 0.0833333333333333h
Total runic power used: 2160 (0 wasted)
Threat Per Second
8229
Generated in
0s
Template:
Unholy 00-17-54
Rotation:
Unholy-ReapingLess
Presence:
Blood
Sigil:
Virulence
RuneEnchant:
FallenCrusader
Pet Calculation:
True
^This is Herkuml War Token over a 5 minute fight.
I continued testing, and figured out that you would have to use the Herkuml War Token for approx. 6 minutes without the stacks falling off for it to be a DPS upgrade, even on a stand-still fight. While it's a small difference (30 dps) I thought I would share it.
Thank you for pointing that out, I'll change my post momentarily.
I just used your exact gear and setup and ran a sim, and found that Herkuml is ~120 dps increase over Greatness. Are you sure you inputted all your fields correctly? Also, instead of putting the time to 0.083 you can leave it 100h and check off "many 350s fights".
I compared two of my Lich King HM progress logs. One evening I used automatic Chaos Bane cancelling, the evening before I used Shadowmourne normally. I got almost twice as much procs (1% dmg vs. 1,9% dmg). The overall damage itself is quite meaningless, since I had to spec into Desecration. My assumption of a 10s ramp-up time seems to be correct and that makes proc-cancelling not really worth it.
I compared two of my Lich King HM progress logs. One evening I used automatic Chaos Bane cancelling, the evening before I used Shadowmourne normally. I got almost twice as much procs (1% dmg vs. 1,9% dmg). The overall damage itself is quite meaningless, since I had to spec into Desecration. My assumption of a 10s ramp-up time seems to be correct and that makes proc-cancelling not really worth it.
This correlates with my own testing (using an addon to automatically cancel to minimize swings that don't gain fragments) -- yes, you get around 2x as many procs, but you go from an average of 189 strength (50% uptime of 270, 5% uptime of 0, 30, 60, 90, ..., 240) to 108 strength (5% uptime of 0, 30, 60, 90, ... 240). 81str is worth maybe 190dps or so. With cancelling, you get a proc every 10s (or 200 dps) vs without it you get a proc every 20s (or 100 dps). Doubling proc rate gains 100dps but loses ~190dps from strength for a net loss of 90dps. simcraft (hacked to autocancel the buff after 0.1s) agrees with roughly an 80dps loss for myself.
Proc cancelling isn't worth it for death knights. Paladins who can stack much quicker are a different story, of course. For us, it is better to treat the proc as gaining strength than a Tiny Shadowmourne in a Bottle.
On Blood Princes the princes are usually tanked too far from each other to have any AoE WP ticks. On BQL you mean friendly fire to MC'd targets or what? And lastly on Gunship the adds die quickly aswell, but the whole encounter is quite trivial. Where is this "huge benefit" you speak of?
Seems like Simerra beat me to it and put it perfectly into words so I'd like to quote him:
For encounters like Anub'arak I would go for crit though, but there are no encounters as AoE heavy as that in ICC.
Wandering plague is not solely AoE, these ticks also apply to the original target as well as other targets in the vicinity. This is the main part of my argument and had nothing to do with AoE. Having extra ticks on targets when you're out of contact is the main benefit of wandering plague, and hence crit, on single target fights. So the point of WP ticks on MC'd targets in BQL is merely facetious.
BQL has ~40 seconds minimum during the encounter where Melee are not able to damage the boss due to the 2 flight phases, longer if you gain Swarming Shadows or Pact of the Darkfallen. This is a minimum of 2 full rotations where no damage output is possible besides dots and spells, ie DC, IT and diseases. Assuming you're sitting at around 40% base crit raid buffed, you can expect to be getting 40% extra damage out of diseases due to wandering plague ticks.
This is similar for many all of the fights in ICC. Sindragosa has an air phase, you have to run back and forth constantly in Deathwhisper, PP has large tracks of sporadic target contact and target switching where diseases will be on 2 targets etc. While haste will undoubtedly provide a greater amount of damage while on the boss, crit still provides damage while in contact AND out of contact. It will take some numbers from encounters to sell the net gain of damage from haste in practical terms for ICC encounters.
This is similar for many all of the fights in ICC. Sindragosa has an air phase, you have to run back and forth constantly in Deathwhisper, PP has large tracks of sporadic target contact and target switching where diseases will be on 2 targets etc. While haste will undoubtedly provide a greater amount of damage while on the boss, crit still provides damage while in contact AND out of contact. It will take some numbers from encounters to sell the net gain of damage from haste in practical terms for ICC encounters.
There are just as many encounters where your pet stays on the boss all the time, while you have to move out and back in. The value of haste on those increases significantly, especially when compared to crit. This is why it's difficult to assess stat weights outside of the perfect tank & spank fight, because you can construct a case for pretty much any stat.
Originally Posted by Frozn
You can be sure that I will never post something anymore. Your arrogance and snobism makes me feel sick, enjoy your idiot infractions. Your community just lost one of the best moonkin of the alliance (gearscore).
With cancelling, you get a proc every 10s (or 200 dps) vs without it you get a proc every 20s (or 100 dps).
This is the problem statement, proc hits much harder than 2k on average. As a matter of fact looking at my festergut logs from last week (when i didn't get tricks) it hit for 3.3k on average which is consistent with the assumption of it scaling with most of our passive damage multipliers/debuffs.
My own spreadsheet shows proc canceling providing me with a tiny boost of ~15 dps on a tank-and-spank fight. Any haste effects though increase the dps gain (lust, engineering gloves, haste pot, etc). Depending on the duration of the fight (and hence uptime on said buffs), amount of movement or aoe (which favors keeping the proc for more spell damage), etc it may or may not be worth it to cancel the proc. I macro'd cancelaura together with melee strikes (and pestilence) to get the uptime of chaos bane up for aoe or out of melee range situations while still canceling the buff fast "enough" for pure tank and spanks.
On a side note, and I dunno if this has already been mentioned, but a great way to compare items with hit to items without it is to set the EP value of hit to be the same as haste when comparing 2 items. That way you can quickly tell whether it's worth it to get an item with hit or swap out some str/haste for str/hit gems. The main problem with this approach is you can "run out of yellow slots" which you can use to gain hit from gems. Still, it's easy to see which items are the "best" choice for hit (t10 gloves, ashen verdict rep ring, and polar bear bracers with LDW's necklace and garrosh's rage trailing behind).
This is the problem statement, proc hits much harder than 2k on average. As a matter of fact looking at my festergut logs from last week (when i didn't get tricks) it hit for 3.3k on average which is consistent with the assumption of it scaling with most of our passive damage multipliers/debuffs.
Logs would show higher damage because of the 10% ICC buff; that scales the damage higher, but of course it scales the effect of strength, too.
Good point on the actual damage; however, I think the result still holds. Chaos Bane should be affected by Blood Presence, Ebon Plague, and Black Ice based on how other procs work. This goes to an average of 3150. However, don't forget partial resists bring this down by, I believe, 6% on average. So we're down just under 3k per proc. Even at this number, it's extremely close, but definitely a loss on anything that has any secondary target at all, or time you can't be on the boss but your diseases tick and pet can be, etc.
So the average strength, without cancelling, is 189str, which is 434dps, and a proc every 20s for 150 more dps -- a total of 584dps. With cancelling, the average strength is 108str or 248dps, plus the doubled proc of 300dps -- 548dps. Still lower, but as you correctly point out, closer. This average rate would speed up during heroism, but so would white attacks and other str-benefiting abilities. It still doesn't look to be worth it. To get to 584dps, you'd need 336dps from the proc itself which is a proc every 8-9s.
Even if it's close, or even slightly ahead, it just seems like a loss; str is so good and scales the rest of our stats that the static proc isn't the really nice part anyway. The really tricky part could be trying to get the best of both worlds (disease with chaos bane up then cancel it to build more stacks etc). But given mobility, multiple target fights, etc, I just don't envision it coming out ahead.
Wandering plague is not solely AoE, these ticks also apply to the original target as well as other targets in the vicinity. This is the main part of my argument and had nothing to do with AoE. Having extra ticks on targets when you're out of contact is the main benefit of wandering plague, and hence crit, on single target fights. So the point of WP ticks on MC'd targets in BQL is merely facetious.
Ah, I wasn't thinking about single target WP damage when we can't be on the boss, so the WP ticks on MC'd targets was a bad joke. I see your point now, but as it was mentioned by Amroo, in most of those situations your pet will be staying on the boss which increases the value of haste aswell. I can think of only Sindragosa and BQL where my pet cannot hit the boss while my diseases keep on ticking.
Originally Posted by Aryee
BQL has ~40 seconds minimum during the encounter where Melee are not able to damage the boss due to the 2 flight phases, longer if you gain Swarming Shadows or Pact of the Darkfallen. This is a minimum of 2 full rotations where no damage output is possible besides dots and spells, ie DC, IT and diseases. Assuming you're sitting at around 40% base crit raid buffed, you can expect to be getting 40% extra damage out of diseases due to wandering plague ticks.
But why gear for situations where you can't hit the boss, when for the majority of time you can? The difference in EAP of haste and crit is so significant that I don't see crit overcoming haste just because you leave your diseases ticking on a target, especially when your ghoul will be affected by haste and is able to stay on the target in most situations aswell.
For crit to win on those type of fights the additional WP ticks gained from crit when you can't be on the boss would need to overcome the damage gained from haste over crit when hitting the boss which I don't see happening, since the time spent hitting the boss is a lot more than being away from the boss in most cases. Now to add the increased ghoul damage from haste when not hitting the boss on fights that your ghoul can stay on the boss, I don't see crit winning out.
I may be stupid question, but has anyone observed the relation between the value of expertise and latency? I am currently playing with very high (300+ ms) latency with sub-frost, so I don't have that much free gcd so I keep myself slightly below exp cap.
Question. On the BiS "All currently known loot, sans 25m heroic loot and Shadowmourne" table. Wouldn't the HWT be the best trinket along with DBW? Cause it moved ahead of DV in the BiS Trinkets so why not BiS Gear also.